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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

IIHF World Rankings

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:28 PM
  #76
Sonic Disturbance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Not talking about the Olympics, but the World Championships.

The rest of the World takes the tournament pretty seriously. Now some are saying that Canada are not and that they go out get drunk and stuff when they are there to represent Canada in the best possible way.

Can't fault the rest of the World IF Canada has that problem and fails in the World Championships because of it.

I agree with you about the Olympic Team.
You just spent a few posts talking about how Europe doesn't care about the World Cup, it's a pre-season tournament ect. and downplaying its importance or credibility in ranking countries by calling it "meh". Canadians make the same argument about WCs which you seem to disregard hypocritically.

Also look at this 2013 Roster:

http://www.tsn.ca/canadian_hockey/feature/?id=63060

Exactly 5 out of 25 players that made the 2014 Sochi team made the 2013 WC roster. This includes our third-string goalie (Smith), our #7 & #8 D-men (Hamhuis, Subban), a fourth-line centre/healthy scratch (Duchene) and a top-line forward who didn't play due to injury (Stamkos). You telling me this tournament is a good way to rank countries?


Last edited by Sonic Disturbance: 02-23-2014 at 12:34 PM.
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Old
02-23-2014, 12:29 PM
  #77
SirKillalot
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Originally Posted by Richard F Schiller View Post
Once again, you're stating this "peak" performance difference right out of your ass. You have absolutely no factual evidence despite your claim of "physics". No doubt that mid-season form players are better, but there's not a huge difference. From my viewings, the 2004 World Cup was played with well-conditioned players that was not visibly different from the 2004 Stanley Cup Playoffs. Also my "drink and smoke" comment was inferring that players nowadays take way better care of their bodies than 50 years ago. I highly doubt the majority of the players smoke anytime and while I don't doubt they drink, I don't think they would get wasted on the same level as players would in the 1960's from some of the anecdotes I've heard.
If as you say there are now difference in shape. Why go through all the trouble with a long regular season. Just play the Stanley Cup Playoffs in September. Apparently it doesn't make any difference to you.

You are saying there is almost no difference? Look at the Rangers start of the season compared to now then? Are you serious?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard F Schiller View Post
You just spent a few posts talking about how Europe doesn't care about the World Cup, it's a pre-season tournament ect. and downplaying its importance or credibility in ranking countries by calling it "meh". Canadians make the same argument about WCs which you seem to disregard hypocritically.
Yes. Because that is a question about attitude from one country. Difference from that and to a time where every team are in pre-season mode and almost all don't really care.

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:30 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Hubie View Post
There will probably be endless whining about it as usual, but people should realize that no judgement goes into it. It's just a mathematical formula used for seeding IIHF tournaments. If you don't give weight to the World Championships then just don't give weight to this ranking.
I've got no problem giving weight to the World Championships. I'm just not sure they should be the same weight as the Olympics. For one, there are 3 World Championships for every 1 Olympics; and many of the top players miss out on the WC because they're still competing in the NHL playoffs, while everything gets shut down for the Olympics making it a true best-on-best.

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02-23-2014, 12:33 PM
  #79
Sonic Disturbance
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
If as you say there are now difference in shape. Why go through all the trouble with a long regular season. Just play the Stanley Cup Playoffs in September. Apparently it doesn't make any difference to you.

You are saying there is almost no difference? Look at the Rangers start of the season compared to now then? Are you serious?
1) I didn't say there was NO difference, I said it was marginal.
2) The differences in capability of teams is largely to due to adapting to new players, systems and management teams. Vigneault is a much different coach than Tortorella.
3) The biggest difference I'd say between the beginning of the year and near the end is that players are more prone to injuries like pulling their groin at the start of the season.

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:39 PM
  #80
Jesus Vitale
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While i don't feel like the World Championships should be weighted the same as the Olympics, it's still stupid for Canadian fans to whine about how their best players are still playing in the NHL Playoffs! so it's completely meaningless and the IIHF is stupid and dumb!

most of the other countries' best players play in the NHL as well, so they're being hurt as well. It's not the rest of the world's fault that the Canadian players who are out of the playoffs at the time don't care about them.

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:40 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDogBrewin View Post
Does it say somewhere how exactly the points are tallied ?

Performance in the Olympics should have a ton of value in the overall rankings.
Quote:
The team that wins the IIHF World Championship gold medal or the Olympic gold medal receives 1200 points. In general, there is a 20-point interval between two ranked positions (for example, 880 points for the 13th place and 860 points for the 14th place). As an exception to this principle there is a 40-point interval between gold and silver, silver and bronze, the 4th and 5th position and between the 8th and 9th position in the top division. The reason for the larger intervals for these positions is to give teams a bonus for reaching the quarter-finals, the semi-finals, the final and for winning the gold medal. (The bonus formula can be changed with any alterations to the playing format).


To enable the ranking to accurately reflect current form, the greatest importance is given to results of the last year's competition. To a lesser degree, attention is also paid to results from previous years. The system uses a four-year cycle as the points earned in one year decline linearly within the next 3 years and in the 5th year results are dropped from the calculation altogether.

Example: Value of the gold medal
Year 1: 100% value -- 1200 points
Year 2: 75% value -- 900 points
Year 3: 50% value -- 600 points
Year 4: 25% value -- 300 points
Year 5: 0% value -- 0 points

The IIHF World Ranking will be released following each IIHF World Championship and the Olympic Ice Hockey Tournament.

Before each World Championship, a pre-championship report will be released, in which the values of the previous seasons are already reduced according to the above-described procedure and where only the points of the upcoming competition need to be added to get the IIHF World Ranking for the year.
From the IIHF website: http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/c...d-ranking.html

Same points for the Olympics as it is for the World Championship.. I call that bull****, even though my Sweden is ranked first place. Canada deserves to be ranked as the best nationalteam. The points from the Olympics should be worth 2-3 times more than in the World Championship!

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:42 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HotPie View Post
Canada fails in the WCs because 80% of its team is playing in the NHL playoffs. Has nothing to do with an attitude problem.
Yet other countries have the same problem and do better than Canada.

Canadians love to brag about Team Canada's depth but when they do poorly at the WHC which measure depth, they whine and call it a useless tournament.

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:46 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Yet other countries have the same problem and do better than Canada.

Canadians love to brag about Team Canada's depth but when they do poorly at the WHC which measure depth, they whine and call it a useless tournament.
Its so obviously ironic it makes me laugh.

"We could send 5 teams to Olympics to compete for the gold!"

Another early exit in WHC.. "Our best players are in SC Playoffs!"

First of all, not all best players play in playoffs, best team do and all top teams have that same "problem".

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02-23-2014, 12:52 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard F Schiller View Post
1) I didn't say there was NO difference, I said it was marginal.
2) The differences in capability of teams is largely to due to adapting to new players, systems and management teams. Vigneault is a much different coach than Tortorella.
3) The biggest difference I'd say between the beginning of the year and near the end is that players are more prone to injuries like pulling their groin at the start of the season.
1) Well then we disagree. It's a big difference.
2) Rangers was an example. Plenty of examples to choose from.
3) Injuries can happen at any time. More prone? Maybe, I don't know. Perhaps? But if so, it just shows that the teams are not used to the workload and not at their best level.

Even though it's just one game. Compare it with Community Shield or some Supercup in soccer. Important on paper, not so much in reality or reputation.

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:54 PM
  #85
Coach Travis
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They include the World Championships which is basically an International Jamboree so...

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02-23-2014, 12:56 PM
  #86
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Obvious Canadian conspiracy. Tallinder was right!

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Old
02-23-2014, 12:59 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinRuutu View Post
First of all, not all best players play in playoffs, best team do and all top teams have that same "problem".
What are you even talking about? Canadian players routinely skip the WHC. When's the last time Crosby went when he was able? When's the last time Ovechkin & Malkin skipped? There's going to be one or two European teams who have some their best players in the playoffs but Canada ALWAYS has some of their best in the playoffs.

I enjoy the tournament quite a bit but it's also kind of silly. I mean, one year I cheered for Russia over Canada because Sergei Fedorov, who was my hero growing up, was in it and it didn't matter if Canada lost because it wasn't best on best. It felt more like club teams.

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02-23-2014, 01:03 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
What are you even talking about? Canadian players routinely skip the WHC. When's the last time Crosby went when he was able? When's the last time Ovechkin & Malkin skipped? There's going to be one or two European teams who have some their best players in the playoffs but Canada ALWAYS has some of their best in the playoffs.

I enjoy the tournament quite a bit but it's also kind of silly. I mean, one year I cheered for Russia over Canada because Sergei Fedorov, who was my hero growing up, was in it and it didn't matter if Canada lost because it wasn't best on best. It felt more like club teams.
Most Canadian players (understandably) don't want to go overseas and fight for an award that most of Canada doesn't give a **** about. That's just the facts.

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02-23-2014, 01:03 PM
  #89
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Canadians make themselves look like clowns. Canadians brag in every thread how deep they are but then they cry about WHC: "but the SC playoffs are ongoing".

What a joke! It just benefits the country with best depth: Canada. Canada should be able to dominate in WHCs when compared to Olympics.

After reading all this Olympics related threads here today, it's no wonder why nobody likes Canadians.

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02-23-2014, 01:03 PM
  #90
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The winner of three of the last four best-on-best Olympics is ranked 3rd in the world. I sure hope we get better some day.

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02-23-2014, 01:05 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roto View Post
Canadians make themselves look like clowns. Canadians brag in every thread how deep they are but then they cry about WHC: "but the SC playoffs are ongoing".

What a joke! It just benefits the country with best depth: Canada. Canada should be able to dominate in WHCs when compared to Olympics.

After reading all this Olympics related threads here today, it's no wonder why nobody likes Canadians.
Sounds like more whining to me. Hey, we're sorry we are better than your nation in hockey. Actually, no we're not--be a man and grow a pair.

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02-23-2014, 01:05 PM
  #92
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Yep we are not producing the next lot of stars in the draft just put us #1 & leave it.

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02-23-2014, 01:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by roto View Post
Canadians make themselves look like clowns. Canadians brag in every thread how deep they are but then they cry about WHC: "but the SC playoffs are ongoing".

What a joke! It just benefits the country with best depth: Canada. Canada should be able to dominate in WHCs when compared to Olympics.

After reading all this Olympics related threads here today, it's no wonder why nobody likes Canadians.
Location un known, shows you have no character.

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Old
02-23-2014, 01:12 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by NuxFan09 View Post
Canada wins whenever their best players are available.

That being said, there is no excuse for their lack of success at the World Championships and that is why we're ranked lower than #1. The same Canadian fans who brag that our B team could beat any other nation's best team are the same people who cite our best players still playing in the NHL playoffs as an excuse for losing at the WC's.

Canada still fields a good enough team to win there without Crosby, Toews, Doughty etc. No excuses. We deserve the #3 spot we have until we start to learn to win outside of the Olympics.
The juniors have been lackluster in the last while

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02-23-2014, 01:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by stamkos View Post
Location un known, shows you have no character.
I usually have, but lost it today. Actually I cheered for Canada in today's game, but after reading posts by Canadian fans on this forum after the game, I'll never cheer for Canada again. So classless. I can be classless also if needed, as you can notice.

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02-23-2014, 01:13 PM
  #96
SirKillalot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard F Schiller View Post
You just spent a few posts talking about how Europe doesn't care about the World Cup, it's a pre-season tournament ect. and downplaying its importance or credibility in ranking countries by calling it "meh". Canadians make the same argument about WCs which you seem to disregard hypocritically.

Also look at this 2013 Roster:

http://www.tsn.ca/canadian_hockey/feature/?id=63060

Exactly 5 out of 25 players that made the 2014 Sochi team made the 2013 WC roster. This includes our third-string goalie (Smith), our #7 & #8 D-men (Hamhuis, Subban), a fourth-line centre/healthy scratch (Duchene) and a top-line forward who didn't play due to injury (Stamkos). You telling me this tournament is a good way to rank countries?
Yes. Or are you saying that your depth is not good, and you don't have three teams that could win it? You can't have it both ways. Either show up in the World Championship or don't complain about the ranking. I do agree with Canada most likely are/should be the best team on a regular basis. But complaining to the other nations when "you" are the ones who keeps failing in the World Championships isn't the right way to do it.

You can't have a ranking that only ranks performances every 4th year. There is just too much possibility for a lot of change during that time period.

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02-23-2014, 01:21 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by skip2mybordeleau View Post
This list is meaningless to me.
I think you mean "to everyone".

The IIHF rankings might actually be worse than FIFA's.

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Old
02-23-2014, 01:23 PM
  #98
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IMO the logical solution is to weight the Olympics twice as much as the WC. The WC are important and is not a useless tournament but the Olympics are more important.

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02-23-2014, 01:26 PM
  #99
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To be fair, it really wasn't best on best as both Sweden and Finland were missing more key players than any other team. I guess that's why they look at the last 4 years and not just a two week, single elimination tournament

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02-23-2014, 01:27 PM
  #100
roto
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I think you mean "to everyone".

The IIHF rankings might actually be worse than FIFA's.
The ranking is supposed to be meaningless for fans. I still don't understand how some people try to use it to boost their ego. The ranking is just basically used for seeding and apparently some Canadians think it's some magical list telling what's the most powerful hockey nation on Earth.

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