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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Is Finland a Top 3 Hockey Nation

View Poll Results: Is Finland a Top 3 Hockey Nation
Yes, Finland is Top 3 188 50.40%
No, Finland is #4 or lower 185 49.60%
Voters: 373. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-24-2014, 03:01 PM
  #26
Beau Knows
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
sweden got knocked out so early or else they wouldn't have gotten that bronze
How do you know that? All we know is that Finland consistently ends up on the podium. Not there fault other teams can't win their own games.

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02-24-2014, 03:02 PM
  #27
Cawz
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Finland to me seems like the smaller team that goes for lower expectations and achieves them, while the big 4 go for broke. I see Finland as being similar to the Czechs back in the day - a team that uses stellar defense and goaltending to stifle teams with more talent then them, and kind of lurk in the shadows while the big boys duke it out before sneaking in for a medal. But its more of an upset than a legit gold medal threat.

I realize others dont share this opinion, so save the cutting and pasting of the stats. It just seems that the big 4 see silver as a failure and Finland sees bronze as success, and play the tournament in that mindset.

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02-24-2014, 03:02 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Did I say anything about America?
For your convenience, I also added Russia. There is no question whether Canada or Sweden have been better than Finland, they have.

I just wanted to point out the results against these other teams that some would consider when talking about the 3rd spot.

As you can see, there really is no question.

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02-24-2014, 03:05 PM
  #29
Crisp Breakout
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Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.

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02-24-2014, 03:06 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.
agreed

USA didn't even look like they cared enough to win the bronze, so what does that say about the medal?

placing 3rd isn't that much to be happy about IMO

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02-24-2014, 03:07 PM
  #31
psycho_dad
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
finland had an easy road to the semis, and got lucky that sweden got knocked out so early or else they wouldn't have gotten that bronze
"Luck" always plays a part, that's why Finland did not win gold in 2006 as well. It goes both ways.

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02-24-2014, 03:07 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.
but if the NHL players don't win you anything internationally how is that a good way to judge?

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02-24-2014, 03:09 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.
Except that Finland plays a WAYYYYY better TEAM game than the US and Russia. Give them their due everyone. They EARNED the Bronze. What they lack in STAR POWER, they MORE tahn make up for it in playing AS A TEAM.

AFWIW, I am Canadian...no bias.

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02-24-2014, 03:09 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.
As you would, since results of best on best tournaments and games against eachother would not suit your purposes. So you would rather just decide it on how many players of each nationality does a certain league have.

Hey, I think Finland is the #1 nation in the world because they produce the most players for the Finnish league.

See how easy that **** is

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02-24-2014, 03:10 PM
  #35
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We are #4 after Canada, Sweden and USA and its pretty clear IMO. Russia is FAR behind us, we beat them every single time in a best-on-best tournament. We dominated them without our 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th centers and 1st defenseman.

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02-24-2014, 03:11 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Finland to me seems like the smaller team that goes for lower expectations and achieves them, while the big 4 go for broke. I see Finland as being similar to the Czechs back in the day - a team that uses stellar defense and goaltending to stifle teams with more talent then them, and kind of lurk in the shadows while the big boys duke it out before sneaking in for a medal. But its more of an upset than a legit gold medal threat.

I realize others dont share this opinion, so save the cutting and pasting of the stats. It just seems that the big 4 see silver as a failure and Finland sees bronze as success, and play the tournament in that mindset.
This is incorrect. Bronze is not a success when you aim to win the gold, and that's what Finland aims to do. They haven't gone after anything else during the last decade.

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02-24-2014, 03:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
absolutely not

put them on NHL sized ice (the way the game was meant to be played,) and they don't even crack top 5
The last time the world cup was played they lost to Canada by a goal in the finals.

edit. and 3rd in 2010 on NHL ice.

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02-24-2014, 03:12 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
agreed

USA didn't even look like they cared enough to win the bronze, so what does that say about the medal?

placing 3rd isn't that much to be happy about IMO
It says nothing about the medal, it says a hell of a lot about the players of team USA if they seriously did not have the pride to play for their country and take what they could.

But anyway, that is a completely subjective argument, I could say just as well that Finland looked completely disinterested but still trumped them 5-0 because that's just how superior they are even when they don't care one bit.

USA has won bronze medal games before, they've celebrated. They showed up this time too but they got bested by Finland and they gave up when it got to 3-0.

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02-24-2014, 03:12 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
As you would, since results of best on best tournaments and games against eachother would not suit your purposes. So you would rather just decide it on how many players of each nationality does a certain league have.

Hey, I think Finland is the #1 nation in the world because they produce the most players for the Finnish league.

See how easy that **** is
He has a point though. Finland doesn't have the star players that some of the other countries have. It comes down to how much you value the results of international competitions vs the players the countries produce. Finland doesn't have a Malkin or Ovechkin, but they do have better tournament results than Russia.

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02-24-2014, 03:13 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
agreed

USA didn't even look like they cared enough to win the bronze, so what does that say about the medal?

placing 3rd isn't that much to be happy about IMO
You missed half of the game?

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02-24-2014, 03:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
The last time the world cup was played they lost to Canada by a goal in the finals.
It's really unfair to kick people in the nuts with facts, you know.

Let him keep his dream, don't be mean.

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02-24-2014, 03:14 PM
  #42
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One thing is for sure. Their national team almost always performs well. There is a difference.

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02-24-2014, 03:18 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
He has a point though. Finland doesn't have the star players that some of the other countries have. It comes down to how much you value the results of international competitions vs the players the countries produce. Finland doesn't have a Malkin or Ovechkin, but they do have better tournament results than Russia.
Yes. If you value the names in the back of the jerseys more than you value the actual head to head games on the ice, then you can argue for USA and Russia.

I just don't know how any sports fan could justify deciding the rankings rather on roster (and the projected estimation of how good it is) than actual results. But I have seen a lot of it now so I guess it should not surprise.

I'm all about results, it doesn't matter if Ovechkin is more famous and scores more points in a better league than say Jori Lehtera, if one of them can produce in the olympic level and one can't.

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02-24-2014, 03:19 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Not a chance. I judge the countries based on their NHL player production. Outside of producing top-notch goalies, Finland doesn't compare to Canada, US, Russia, or Sweden.
Slots in the NHL teams are a limited resource. 20*30 = 600 to be had at any given night. Perhaps roughly 700 players on Earth could fathom to call themselves an NHLer if you count the closest depth options.

There are far more than merely 700 world-class hockey players on this Earth. Thanks to the tight ship club front offices have to run due to cap, team roling and other asset management, there will always be a situation where all the best players are not in the NHL at the same time.

Finally, being a North American league, the NHL is naturally slated towards North Americans. If there is a slot open for a depth option and the choices are a Canadian and a Finn, both perfectly interchangeable in skill, which one most GMs go for?

It's such higher math that I perfectly understand if some folks don't get it on the first go, but I encourage you to think that particular metric a little further regardless.

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02-24-2014, 03:22 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Yes. If you value the names in the back of the jerseys more than you value the actual head to head games on the ice, then you can argue for USA and Russia.

I just don't know how any sports fan could justify deciding the rankings rather on roster (and the projected estimation of how good it is) than actual results. But I have seen a lot of it now so I guess it should not surprise.

I'm all about results, it doesn't matter if Ovechkin is more famous and scores more points in a better league than say Jori Lehtera, if one of them can produce in the olympic level and one can't.
I think both matter. I'm not even saying Finland isn't #3, I'm simply not sure right now. I just think there is more than the results of a 2 week tournament every 4 years that should come into play. Producing great players who win scoring titles and Hart trophies is worth something imo.

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02-24-2014, 03:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
agreed

USA didn't even look like they cared enough to win the bronze, so what does that say about the medal?

placing 3rd isn't that much to be happy about IMO
see not caring about bronze is why i rank Finland above USA

you play to win not caring is the lamest excuse in the world of sport

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02-24-2014, 03:27 PM
  #47
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Good results from following best on best indicates..

1998,2004(worldcup), 2006, 2010,2014

That.. no. But top 4? Proably, could be.

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02-24-2014, 03:30 PM
  #48
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it's 2 different categorys.
1. Finland is more succesful in international tournaments recently than Usa/Russia= Finland is better team.
2. Usa/Russia got alot more NHL talent = Usa/Russia are much more skilled than Finland but not better team.
it's the #1 category that defines top countries. achievements. it's a living ranking system so bringing all-time olympics/WJC/WC medal table in this convo is useless.
if someone wants to judge players by NHL talent only, fine go with it but talent doesn't equal winning and winning is what defines the top countries.
there's just no way around it.

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02-24-2014, 03:31 PM
  #49
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1.Canada
2.Sweden
3.Usa/Finland
4.Russia/Czech Republic

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02-24-2014, 03:36 PM
  #50
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFeistyFinn View Post
it's 2 different categorys.
1. Finland is more succesful in international tournaments recently than Usa/Russia= Finland is better team.
2. Usa/Russia got alot more NHL talent = Usa/Russia are much more skilled than Finland but not better team.
it's the #1 category that defines top countries. achievements. it's a living ranking system so bringing all-time olympics/WJC/WC medal table in this convo is useless.
if someone wants to judge players by NHL talent only, fine go with it but talent doesn't equal winning and winning is what defines the top countries.
there's just no way around it.
There's a reason your top players come to the NHL. And there's a reason that when NHL players' careers start to fizzle out they move to the European leagues.

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