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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Rank the top 8.

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Old
02-25-2014, 02:09 PM
  #76
psycho_dad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentsi View Post
What would you rather have? Gold medal or entertaining/good tournament with a 20 % chance for gold medal?
Gold medal. Winning matters, tournaments entertainment value I don't give a flying F about in comparison.

And wasn't it entertaining, watching Putin's boys lose their 50 billion dollar propaganda tournament in the quarters? Dramatic and exciting!

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Old
02-25-2014, 02:16 PM
  #77
Rentsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker View Post
Put together a world team that doesn't include any 2014 olympians.

You can pick any player in the world as long as they did not participate or were named to a team in the 2014 Sochi Olympics

J. Neal - E. Staal - C. Giroux
J. Skinner - J. Spezza - T. Seguin
T. Hall - R. NH - J. Eberle
N. Mackinnon - J. Thornton - E. Kane

B. Seabrook - M. Green
D. Phaneuf - M. Giordano
D. Boyle - M. Reilly

M.A. Fleury
J. Bernier
M. Brodeur


This is why the depth is in a league of it's own.
How much better do you consider this team to be if you compare it with the team Canada that was 5th at whc 2013?

Devan Dubnyk Edmonton Oilers
Michael Garnett Chelyabinsk Traktor (KHL)
Mike Smith Phoenix Coyotes

T.J. Brodie Calgary Flames
Brian Campbell Florida Panthers
Brenden Dillon Dallas Stars
Dan Hamhuis Vancouver Canucks
Jay Harrison Carolina Hurricanes
Stephane Robidas Dallas Stars
Luke Schenn Philadelphia Flyers
Justin Schultz Edmonton Oilers
P.K. Subban Montreal Canadiens

Matt Duchene Colorado Avalanche
Jordan Eberle Edmonton Oilers
Claude Giroux Philadelphia Flyers
Taylor Hall Edmonton Oilers
Andrew Ladd Winnipeg Jets
Ryan O'Reilly Colorado Avalanche
Matt Read Philadelphia Flyers
Jaden Schwartz St. Louis Blues
Wayne Simmonds Philadelphia Flyers
Eric Staal Carolina Hurricanes
Jeff Skinner Carolina Hurricanes
Jordan Staal Carolina Hurricanes
Steven Stamkos Tampa Bay Lightning

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Old
02-25-2014, 02:27 PM
  #78
LynxBud
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1 - Canada
2 - Sweden
3 - Finland
4 - USA
5 - Russia
6 - Czech Republic
7 - Switzerland
8 - Slovakia

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02-25-2014, 02:41 PM
  #79
Skobel24
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1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. USA
4. Finland
5. Russia
6. Switzerland/Slovakia
8. Czech Republic

Yes, I have the Swiss at #6. Czech Republics development has taken a huge step back. Meanwhile, Switzerland has been doing an excellent job at developing. In 5 to 10 years or so, I can see Switzerland being in the debate for the top 5.


Last edited by Skobel24: 02-25-2014 at 02:47 PM.
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02-25-2014, 02:42 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
I wasn't aware that we were talking about non-best-on-best tournaments. My point was that Canada has players on its 4th line and 3rd defensive pairing that could play on most team's 1st line or top pairing...
Aaand if we are talking only best-on-best, why USA and Russia ahead of Finland?

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Old
02-25-2014, 02:47 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentsi View Post
How much better do you consider this team to be if you compare it with the team Canada that was 5th at whc 2013?
Miles ahead. No contest.

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Old
02-25-2014, 03:17 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentsi View Post
And doesn't this mean that the wjc2014 was a very good tournament based on the quality of the hockey teams? If you did not have pretty much all of your best players in your roster, you were not able to rank in top 3. And what about sochi2014? Finland became 3rd without almost their entire top 6 and Sweden 2nd with also very significant losses to their roster.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think that sochi2014 was not a good tournament based on the quality of the teams. I mean do you really think that Finland or Sweden has so superior depth in rosters that they should be able to rank #2 and #3 without so many key players? And Canada at the same time don't have enough depth to do the same in juniors?

I personally think that it was mostly because none of the top countries really showed up besides Canada in Sochi. Did the canadian players really looked that happy after the final buzzer that you could see them winning the greatest tournamet ever? I have seen players winning an inner city league and celebrating more than those canadian olympic gold medalist. Vancouver 2010 was a different story. They really had to play their best game in final to beat USA and they did it in over time. So amongst the canadian players, I really think that they don't rank that Sochi gold anywhere near they rank the Vancouver gold. Only you fans seem to do it. I mean can you really say that sochi 2014 was best-on-best tournament? Vancouver was, Sochi was no where near. I'm glad you canadians win it and i'm glad that so many great players got a medal in their last olympic appearance.

There have been close to 20 ego boosting threads on how great Team Canada is after sundays final. (all these ranks us #1 and canada vs rest of the world, we can bring 10 teams and all of them can easily win etc) You did win the tournament of the century, but you did it 4 years ago, not 2 days ago. Like many candians said after wjc final - Keep it classy, keep it classy..
Sweden started the tournament only without Franzen and H. Sedin. And Finland started only without Koivu and Filppula. I agree not having those guys are huge loses, but Canada didn't have Stamkos either, who is arguable a top 3 player in the world. Canada also managed to lose Tavares, a guy who is a top 5 player in the world, and they were capable of finishing without 2 of their top 3 players. If you don't think the tournament was best-on-best because Finland was missing 2 key players then you could say Canada didn't ice their best team either, considering they didn't have Stamkos and Tavares. Sorry but Koivu and Filppula are not the difference between bronze and gold.

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Old
02-25-2014, 04:42 PM
  #83
Forsberg21Sakic19
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These are my current World Power Rankings. I am looking at performances over the past 4-5 years as well as number of top-level players.

1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. Russia
4. USA
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Slovakia

Best of the Rest: Denmark, Latvia, Germany, Belarus

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Old
02-25-2014, 05:16 PM
  #84
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Since 1998, when the NHL started letting the best hockey players in the world compete in the Olympics, Canada has won gold in 3 out of the 5 tournaments. That's a 60% gold percentage and domination over a long period of time. Swedish fans can try to compare roster to roster, Finnish fans can be proud of their bronzes, but the facts are the facts. In a best on best environment, Canada is unequivocally the best. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

Source: an American fan who hates Team Canada.

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Old
02-25-2014, 05:17 PM
  #85
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(^) - trending up
(v) - trending down

1. Canada - Obvious
2. USA - Younger than Sweden with alot of upside (^)
3. Sweden - They are going to lose alot of high end players in the coming years (v)
4. Russia - If they weren't stupid about KHL players they would have done better (^)
5. Finland - The Finns and the above 4 are likely to be the consensus top-5 for years to come (^)
6. Czech Republic - Goaltending and poor roster management hurt them (v)
7. Swizarland - They are hardworking and their program will only improve with Baertschi, Niederreiter etc. coming up the ranks (^)
8. Slovakia - Another nation seemingly trending downwards (v)

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Old
02-25-2014, 05:29 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
Sweden started the tournament only without Franzen and H. Sedin. And Finland started only without Koivu and Filppula. I agree not having those guys are huge loses, but Canada didn't have Stamkos either, who is arguable a top 3 player in the world. Canada also managed to lose Tavares, a guy who is a top 5 player in the world, and they were capable of finishing without 2 of their top 3 players. If you don't think the tournament was best-on-best because Finland was missing 2 key players then you could say Canada didn't ice their best team either, considering they didn't have Stamkos and Tavares. Sorry but Koivu and Filppula are not the difference between bronze and gold.
Actually Finland started without S. Koivu, M. Koivu, Filppula, Pitkänen and Bergenheim and lost Barkov after 2 games. And those Nhl'ers were replaced by KHL and FEL players. So we had 0 of our top 4 centers left when we faced Canada. Yes, 0. And I consider that as a pretty big loss for a team that has about 10 times smaller pool than Canada. It's hard to replace some of your key players.

As I said Canada's junior team lost 3 key players to the NHL and they could not replace them even though they have 12 times bigger pool than Finland in juniors.

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Old
02-25-2014, 05:54 PM
  #87
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Like I said in another thread, you're over-exaggerating your hardships. it's more like 2/3 guys. Bergenheim wasn't even initially invited, Barkov got injured after playing a few games (Like Tavares) and Pitkanen hasn't played a game in about a year. It would be like me saying Canada COULD have had Pronger playing for them. I agree both Koivus and Filppula are injuries that affected Finland and they don't have the depth of Canada to replace these guys. But it's ridiculous to use the argument of 3 missing guys on a single team as a reason why the competition wasn't great and that the tournament wasn't best-on-best. Finland played well despite their injuries. but don't tell me they would have dominated the entire tournament with those 3 extra guys, or that the quality of players was lacking. You're just being sore losers.

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Old
02-25-2014, 06:13 PM
  #88
Rentsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
Like I said in another thread, you're over-exaggerating your hardships. it's more like 2/3 guys. Bergenheim wasn't even initially invited, Barkov got injured after playing a few games (Like Tavares) and Pitkanen hasn't played a game in about a year. It would be like me saying Canada COULD have had Pronger playing for them. I agree both Koivus and Filppula are injuries that affected Finland and they don't have the depth of Canada to replace these guys. But it's ridiculous to use the argument of 3 missing guys on a single team as a reason why the competition wasn't great and that the tournament wasn't best-on-best. Finland played well despite their injuries. but don't tell me they would have dominated the entire tournament with those 3 extra guys, or that the quality of players was lacking. You're just being sore losers.
Barkov played 1 full game against Austria and got injured in a second game against Norway. And after that we had 0 of our top 4 centers left. And as I said, I ranked Finland in 6th position in this tournament and the fact that they became 3rd with a B-team tells something about the tournaments quality.

I ranked Canada #1 before I even knew their roster. And I'm not trying to say that they shouldn't have won because they should have just like they did. But what I'm saying is that they didn't have to play their best game to win like they had to when they won in Vancouver.

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Old
02-25-2014, 06:14 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
I wasn't aware that we were talking about non-best-on-best tournaments. My point was that Canada has players on its 4th line and 3rd defensive pairing that could play on most team's 1st line or top pairing...
exactly. We healthy scratched last years Norris winner for over half the game this year

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Old
02-25-2014, 06:22 PM
  #90
TheFatOne
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Originally Posted by Rentsi View Post

Best coaching:

2./3. Sweden

.

: laugh:

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Old
02-25-2014, 06:28 PM
  #91
Rentsi
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Originally Posted by TheFatOne View Post
: laugh:
whc 2013 1., wjc 2014 2. and olympics 2.

Which country has better coaches than you except Canada?

Russia?? USA???

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Old
02-25-2014, 07:39 PM
  #92
An Argument For
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In terms of best on best national teams.

1.) Canada
2 - 5.) Sweden, USA, Finland, Russia. (Draw names out of a hat)
6.) Czech Republic
7-8.) Switzerland, Slovakia (flip a coin)

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Old
02-25-2014, 08:57 PM
  #93
Cilisi
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Originally Posted by 47 View Post
(^) - trending up
(v) - trending down

1. Canada - Obvious
2. USA - Younger than Sweden with alot of upside (^)
3. Sweden - They are going to lose alot of high end players in the coming years (v)
4. Russia - If they weren't stupid about KHL players they would have done better (^)
5. Finland - The Finns and the above 4 are likely to be the consensus top-5 for years to come (^)
6. Czech Republic - Goaltending and poor roster management hurt them (v)
7. Swizarland - They are hardworking and their program will only improve with Baertschi, Niederreiter etc. coming up the ranks (^)
8. Slovakia - Another nation seemingly trending downwards (v)
This is an okay list, but I'm not so sure about your summary for Team Sweden. I should think it was obvious that we're trending upwards; the whole "going to lose alot of high end players in the coming years" has been true for... well... as long as we've played hockey. As has it been true for any hockey nation with any talented players, ever. The only way that statement can suggest a downwards trend is if it's followed by "...and there is insufficient/no new talent coming up through the system."

However, I am pleased to say that we've got a junior program actually worth the name nowadays, so it's not like we're just losing and not gaining. At this point I feel we're replenishing our ranks with talented young players at a faster rate than we're losing veterans. Or at the very least we're gaining and losing at an even pace. It might be more fair to say that Sweden isn't really trending at all, in that case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentsi View Post
whc 2013 1., wjc 2014 2. and olympics 2.

Which country has better coaches than you except Canada?

Russia?? USA???
Don't worry about it. Us Swedes love to complain about our coaches even when they do well, and quite frankly we shouldn't be taken very seriously when we do that. It's been going on for as long as I've been following hockey, which is since Hardy Nilsson took over the national team in the year 2000. In that time, the only years where we haven't medaled in at least one IIHF-sanctioned tournament (counting Olympics, WHC and WJC) are 2000, 2005 and 2007. And it was only in the year 2000 that we didn't even PLAY for the medals (we were 4th at the WHC in both 2005 and 2007).

I am not entirely sure why we still complain so much about our coaching, but I have two working theories. The first one is that all Swedish fans suffer from some sort of mass-delusion where we all think we're Canada and should be in the gold medal game year in and year out. (This would be an admirable goal, admittedly, but the complaints that we aren't would still suggest a detachment from reality, or at the very least an unhealthy level of hubris...) My second theory is that it's all about self-validation; we want to call out the coach even if there's just this one selection we don't agree with, because if we can call out the coach as being bad, that indirectly means that we are better. Imagine what an incredible ego-boost it must be to believe that you are smarter than the coach of Team Sweden!

Tl;Dr: Swedes are neurotic.


Last edited by Cilisi: 02-25-2014 at 09:11 PM.
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Old
02-25-2014, 09:12 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Cilisi View Post
This is an okay list, but I'm not so sure about your summary for Team Sweden. I should think it was obvious that we're trending upwards; the whole "going to lose alot of high end players in the coming years" has been true for... well... as long as we've played hockey. As has it been true for any hockey nation with any talented players. The only way that statement can suggest a downwards trend is if it's followed by "...and there is insufficient/no new talent coming up through the system."

However, we've got a junior program actually worth the name nowadays, so it's not like we're just losing and not gaining. At this point I feel we're replenishing our ranks with talented young players at a faster rate than we're losing veterans. Or at the very least we're gaining and losing at an even pace. It might be more fair to say that Sweden isn't really trending at all, in that case.
It just takes time for the next generation of players to be actually recognized as star players. The talent usually develops far in advance of the name recognition. Back when Naslund, Sundin, Lidstrom and Forsberg were in their prime the thought of having to hand the team over to Zetterberg and the Sedins probably felt like the sky was falling but they developed into elite players who you felt comfortable seeing their name on the roster.. the same will happen with Karlsson, Landeskog, Hedman, OEL, Nyquist etc.. these guys are all under 25 and in the next Olympics it Sweden will still have a lot of the world's best players on their roster.

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02-25-2014, 09:36 PM
  #95
FosterHewitt
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Ontario
BC
Manitoba
Sweden
Finland
Sask

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02-25-2014, 10:49 PM
  #96
tony d
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1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. USA
4. Russia
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Slovakia

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02-25-2014, 11:37 PM
  #97
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1. Canada
2. Russia
3. United States
4. Sweden
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Latvia

Have people forgotten that Russia has won three of the past six WC, beating Canada twice in the process, and played in the gold medal game in four? Their failures at the Olympics have been due to poor selection and coaching, not talent. They boast three of the top ten players in the world.

The U.S. has better players in terms of talent and depth than any of the other teams below the top two, indeed probably even better than Russia's, as evidenced by its success at WJC and Under-18 levels; they won silver in 2002 and 2010 Olympics; they were a legitimate contender for gold in 2014 and the team that as a Canadian I was most afraid of. They just have not converted their power into reflective results at the WC as they field very weak teams that intentionally include college talent.

Sweden is a great team, just a slight nudge under the US and Russia, with a bit of a drought in high-end talent development at the moment that is likely to be addressed over the next few years. I'm afraid of Sweden nearly as much as I am of Russia and the U.S. Their players have a solidity and two-way sense that permits them to finish ahead of the Russians and Americans at many tournaments, but in terms of power rankings which measure ability they are just below those two nations.

Finland always plays great and is well ahead of the rest of the world. Definitely close to the rest of the top five, but with less depth and top end talent, compensated for by great team play and goaltending--best in the world. On a good day they can bury you--just ask the U.S. Olympic team and the 2014 Canadian juniors.

Czech Republic has underperformed relative to its talent level for a while, and is struggling with player development, but is still an always-dangerous team.

Slovakia, like the Czechs, remains weakened by the breakup of Czechoslovakia. While they trail the Czech Republic significantly, they are still quite a bit better than the rest of the world below them.

The choice of Latvia as No. 8 is bound to be controversial to some, but that's how I see it. Latvia has produced some truly great players over the years--Helmut Balderis, anyone--and can punch above its weight with decent coaching, as we saw at the Olympics. The talent level of this year's team was, in my opinion, better than that of the Swiss; second-rate Canadian players continue to be dominant in the NLA, Daugavins was I think the third leading scorer in the Swiss League, and players on the Latvian team are sprinkled over a number of pretty good leagues. Switzerland is well coached but has little offensive talent at the elite level and has to rely on a stifling trapping style and goaltending to get by. Mind you, it's good at it, but this is a power ranking.

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02-26-2014, 12:16 AM
  #98
novisor
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1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. USA
4. Finland
5. Russia
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Slovakia
9. Latvia

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02-26-2014, 01:15 AM
  #99
David Krejci
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Canada was the only team that was going to beat the US in the Olympics. lol at Finland being better than the US. There's an argument to be made for Sweden, but I think the US is better overall, they have a better mix of skill and grit, whereas Sweden pretty much only has skill.

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02-26-2014, 01:16 AM
  #100
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I can't see any sense to put either US and Russia ahead of Sweden. Top end talents? Why do have them when hockey is a TEAM sport? Kessel, Oveckhkin, Kane, Malkin didn't won anything fort their countries.

It's mostly US I'm don't see the hype around.

The 5 latest major tournaments.
USA
WCH: 1 bronze
WJC:,2 gold, 1 bronze
Olympics: 2 silver

Sweden
WCH: 1 gold, 1 silver, 2 bronze
WJC: 1 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze
Olympics: 1 gold, 1 silver

Every year we hear ohh US has a great young team that will be even next year. Still they aren't better. Actually they do worse. Olympics is a great example on that. Now they were outside NA , no medals for US.

Right now there's ridiculous to put any team ahead of Sweden except Canada.

1-2. Canada-Sweden
3. Finland
4. US
5. Russia
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Switzerland

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