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Proposal: Phoenix Coyotes/Buffalo Sabres

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Old
08-11-2005, 02:26 PM
  #1
The Real
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Proposal: Phoenix Coyotes/Buffalo Sabres

I have went over the this thread in my mind about 60 times today and can't find an angle that makes me feel like I am not showing my bias towards the Sabres. The gist of what I want is D. Morris on my defense.

How much will it take to pry him out of Phoenix? If not morris then Denis Gauthier. If not Gauthier then Sean O'donnell.

What do I have to give up to get one of these guys? Preferably 1 or 2, but 3 if I must. Like I said, I have an idea of what I'd be willing to give up. Just want your take.


Thanks

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08-11-2005, 02:40 PM
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One of those 3 goalies would be nice for PHX, as depth is an issue. However, the blue line is set in PHX and is the best it's been in years, so noone is going anywhere. Sorry!

You guys need forwards?

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08-11-2005, 04:44 PM
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Vanek plus. That's not a proposal that the Sabres or Sabre fans are going to want to offer but Morris is our #1 d man.

Barnett's put together a fairly solid defense. I don't see them tinkering with it too much unless they achieve a sufficient premium in draft picks and/or players. Just looking at Buffalo's roster and there isn't a great deal that I think they would be salivating over. I like Taylor Pyatt but his trade value is not as high as it should be and I can't see Buffalo dealing Kalinin. We don't want to touch Briere again with a ten foot pole and Drury's contract would be very hard to swallow. I don't see a match here.

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08-11-2005, 06:44 PM
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Hobey Baker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbk
We don't want to touch Briere again with a ten foot pole and Drury's contract would be very hard to swallow. I don't see a match here.
Great post, excellent logic, tons of sense. I'm wondering if this is Mike Barnett himself posting. Briere would've been your leading goal scorer last season, and a very close second to Doan in points (68 to 65). I can see why you wouldn't want him back. If you are indeed Mike Barnett, I just want to say thanks for getting fleeced in that deal with Buffalo.

And Vanek plus you say? For a guy who you obtained for Gratton? That's absolutely, 100% ludicrous. I know Morris is Phoenix's #1 right now, but what exactly did he do for you guys (and the Avs) last season to suggest "Vanek plus"? Vanek is a world class talent who likely brings an all-star calibre player back in return. Morris, albeit above-average and a guy I really do like, is not that guy.

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08-11-2005, 06:49 PM
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Briere didn't fulfill his promise in Phoenix and was not the player they needed him to be. If everyone believes he has made great strides since then good for him and good for Buffalo. I don't recall many teams over the years taking back a mostly failed project for another run, no matter what they had accomplished since.

We did not give up just Gratton for Morris, part of a much larger deal. And while I'm not arguing the Morris vs. Vanek value thing, it is still the old proven versus potential arguement that neither side can be completely sure of.

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08-11-2005, 07:06 PM
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Hobey Baker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta Yote
Briere didn't fulfill his promise in Phoenix and was not the player they needed him to be.
Let's start with a defintion of what Phoenix wanted him to be. I'm not looking to start a pissing match per se, but it seems Yotes fans often want to spin the trade of Briere. He was their leading goal getter the year before they dealt him, and one of their top point producers when he left.


Last edited by Hobey Baker: 08-11-2005 at 07:16 PM.
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Old
08-11-2005, 07:28 PM
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More than a completely one dimensional although reasonably talented, offense only perimiter player. When he was traded it wasn't that he wasn't doing anything, it's just that they wanted more complete players in an effort to improve their team results.

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08-11-2005, 07:29 PM
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I don't suppose Gauthier is available?

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08-11-2005, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
I don't suppose Gauthier is available?
The Yotes like the team they have on paper, and until they get to see them in action they wont be moving major pieces.

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Old
08-11-2005, 07:39 PM
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No need to gloat. I think it is well established Buffalo won the trade.


Keep in mind, however, Briere, at the time he was traded, was doing well offensively but was a complete liability defensively. He had not shown any leadership qualities he has apparently developed since being traded.

The trade - as is often the case - served as a wake up call for Briere. Good for the Sabres to give him that confidence.

I think most Phoenix fans will admit we lost that trade ESPECIALLY because we gave up more potential, youth and at a much lower salary AND threw in the better pick to boot (Barnett throws away draft picks far too readily.) essentially to fill a void for a large bodied centre!

Buffalo fans have to recognize Briere is better NOW than he was in the dessert.

ps Gratton got YOU Briere Gratton got us Morris (our number 1 d). No need to scoff at a player becuase he was aquired in a trade for Gratton.

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08-11-2005, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducky
No need to gloat. I think it is well established Buffalo won the trade.


Keep in mind, however, Briere, at the time he was traded, was doing well offensively but was a complete liability defensively. He had not shown any leadership qualities he has apparently developed since being traded.

The trade - as is often the case - served as a wake up call for Briere. Good for the Sabres to give him that confidence.

I think most Phoenix fans will admit we lost that trade ESPECIALLY because we gave up more potential, youth and at a much lower salary AND threw in the better pick to boot (Barnett throws away draft picks far too readily.) essentially to fill a void for a large bodied centre!

Buffalo fans have to recognize Briere is better NOW than he was in the dessert.

ps Gratton got YOU Briere Gratton got us Morris (our number 1 d). No need to scoff at a player becuase he was aquired in a trade for Gratton.
I see your point (but it's tough to not gloat with this deal ). I'm definitely not scoffing at the Gratton fact, just putting it into perspective when the suggestion of "Vanek +" is on the table. Buffalo fans definitely recognize that DB is better now than ever before, but it seems that the Yotes brass (even if different than those who drafted him) should've known his history as a tiny, yet offensively gifted player while wanting him to become something else. Buffalo's in the same boat right now with Vanek - a guy who can seriously fill it up, but is unfamiliar with his own zone. I hope the Sabres front office have learned the importance of patience, as it paid off bigtime in their dealings with Briere.

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08-11-2005, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
Great post, excellent logic, tons of sense. I'm wondering if this is Mike Barnett himself posting. Briere would've been your leading goal scorer last season, and a very close second to Doan in points (68 to 65). I can see why you wouldn't want him back. If you are indeed Mike Barnett, I just want to say thanks for getting fleeced in that deal with Buffalo.

And Vanek plus you say? For a guy who you obtained for Gratton? That's absolutely, 100% ludicrous. I know Morris is Phoenix's #1 right now, but what exactly did he do for you guys (and the Avs) last season to suggest "Vanek plus"? Vanek is a world class talent who likely brings an all-star calibre player back in return. Morris, albeit above-average and a guy I really do like, is not that guy.
You're misinterpreting my post on Briere. It didn't work out for him in Phoenix so why attempt to bring him back? That was the point of my post and it wasn't a slight against Briere. Nothing has changed with Phoenix's emphasis in terms of adding size as well so I don't see a desire to get him back in Phoenix. I'm sorry if that offends you but that's how I see it.

Morris is our #1 guy and he would be a #1 guy on more than half of the teams in the league including Buffalo. Vanek is the Sabres top prospect and one of the few assets in Buffalo that would even appeal to Phoenix. The original post inquired what it would take to get Morris. The answer is a great deal and likely a price that most Sabre fans would find intolerable. Hence the "Vanek plus" comment.

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08-11-2005, 08:06 PM
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Buffalo would be better off focusing on acquiring a guy like Keith Ballard. It's just too bad that Phoenix is getting long on forwards as I would like to add a guy like Pyatt to our list of younger players. Would love to spin a Taffe and Ballard for Pyatt and a 1st but that could just be a pipe dream.

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08-11-2005, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbk
Buffalo would be better off focusing on acquiring a guy like Keith Ballard. It's just too bad that Phoenix is getting long on forwards as I would like to add a guy like Pyatt to our list of younger players. Would love to spin a Taffe and Ballard for Pyatt and a 1st but that could just be a pipe dream.
If the first gets downgraded a tad, a deal could likely be had. The Sabres are chunky up front, but getting Ballard back would make it worth adding another forward to a clogged forward grouping. Pyatt could do well for a team looking for a big body that is not a (overused term) power forward.

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08-11-2005, 08:13 PM
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Bottom line is it will very likely take an over-valued offer to pry one of the top 6 d-men from Phoenix unless Mara gets and arbitration settlement they can't live with. They are not going to break up what is far and away the deepest and best defense #1-6 they have had since they've been in Phoenix.

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08-11-2005, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
If the first gets downgraded a tad, a deal could likely be had. The Sabres are chunky up front, but getting Ballard back would make it worth adding another forward to a clogged forward grouping.

Maybe you change it to Noronen, a second, and Pyatt for Taffe, Ballard, and a fourth.

Something like that. My brother's favorite team is Buffalo and I'm a Phoenix fan so this topic comes up quite a bit.

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08-11-2005, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
If the first gets downgraded a tad, a deal could likely be had. The Sabres are chunky up front, but getting Ballard back would make it worth adding another forward to a clogged forward grouping. Pyatt could do well for a team looking for a big body that is not a (overused term) power forward.
You know, I've watched games with Pyatt and he bursts out with a great effort and looks very much like a power forward in the making and then I look at the stats at the end of the season and I go "what happened". Can you give me a bit of a scouting report on him. I can't help but look at him and recall the Shane Doan development curve.

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08-11-2005, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
Great post, excellent logic, tons of sense. I'm wondering if this is Mike Barnett himself posting. Briere would've been your leading goal scorer last season, and a very close second to Doan in points (68 to 65). I can see why you wouldn't want him back. If you are indeed Mike Barnett, I just want to say thanks for getting fleeced in that deal with Buffalo.

And Vanek plus you say? For a guy who you obtained for Gratton? That's absolutely, 100% ludicrous. I know Morris is Phoenix's #1 right now, but what exactly did he do for you guys (and the Avs) last season to suggest "Vanek plus"? Vanek is a world class talent who likely brings an all-star calibre player back in return. Morris, albeit above-average and a guy I really do like, is not that guy.
i won't state my thoughts as slyly as you did, but this is a lame post. first of all, he's completely legit in saying they wouldn't want briere back, of course no matter how many reasons he might be able to state wouldn't matter. as well, AGAIN, vaananen is again overlooked in that deal... vanek can bring an all-star player in return? good luck with that one

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08-11-2005, 08:35 PM
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As far as Sabres fans go, I'm part of the minority that see his potential and perceived market value. Unfortunately, he was part of the Peca trade that brought back two guys that haven't developed as hoped. Fans have come to lovingly refer to him as Taylor Quiet. I see Pyatt bringing a good speed-to-size ratio, but he's dogged by inconsistency. He's not flashy, and he'll never be the banger that his frame might suggest (he's a little shy in the corners and might have a higher center of gravity because he seems lighter on his skates than he should be), but he has shown a sufficient skill-set that would lead one to believe his production would increase with linemates that can get him the puck around the net. It can't be easy being a young kid who has pressure to blossom offensively while getting bottom line minutes in a defensive system.

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08-11-2005, 08:51 PM
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I agree, Vaananen was the key to that deal, not Gratton. Buffalo doesn't have the horses to get Morris away from the Coyote. It's that simple.

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08-11-2005, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
i won't state my thoughts as slyly as you did, but this is a lame post. first of all, he's completely legit in saying they wouldn't want briere back, of course no matter how many reasons he might be able to state wouldn't matter. as well, AGAIN, vaananen is again overlooked in that deal... vanek can bring an all-star player in return? good luck with that one
It's not lame at all. I look at the picture today. I'm not afraid to admit that hindsight is 20/20. Briere has grown leaps and bounds with a change of scenery. He's gone from being a player who scored without much else to becoming a leader, producer, and a player that is able to be on the ice in the last few minutes of a close game. Do I have a better understanding of where the original poster was coming from now that he's better explained himself? Sure, but it doesn't mean that I don't think that he'd be a success if he were to return to Phoenix because I'd be willing to bet that he would. I still don't see why they wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole today. I'm curious to hear your 2 cents on the legitimacy of it all.

Vanek hasn't done anything on the NHL level to date due to that little work stoppage, but a guy that scored 42 goals in his first professional season has alot of value. I said he'd "likely" bring an all-star player back in return (I wasn't so pompous to project that he flat-out would), and I'll stick to it. In all your infinite wisdom, please tell me why he wouldn't or couldn't instead of saying the lame "good luck".

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08-11-2005, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot
I agree, Vaananen was the key to that deal, not Gratton. Buffalo doesn't have the horses to get Morris away from the Coyote. It's that simple.
I concur with the lack of horses for DM. He'd would be great if he could be had, but I'd be happy with Ballard or Mara.

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08-11-2005, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
Vanek hasn't done anything on the NHL level to date due to that little work stoppage, but a guy that scored 42 goals in his first professional season has alot of value. I said he'd "likely" bring an all-star player back in return (I wasn't so pompous to project that he flat-out would), and I'll stick to it. In all your infinite wisdom, please tell me why he wouldn't or couldn't instead of saying the lame "good luck".
i'll be lazy... would i trade any of these all stars for vanek?

WESTERN CONFERENCE ALL-STARS
Forwards
-* Todd Bertuzzi, Vancouver Canucks - 2nd All-Star Appearance not a chance
-* Mike Modano, Dallas Stars - 6th All-Star Appearance new salary, not a chance
-* Bill Guerin, Dallas Stars - 3rd All-Star Appearance maybe, only b/c of salary, as a player not a chance
-Shane Doan, Phoenix Coyotes - 1st All-Star Appearance not a chance
-Pavel Datsyuk, Detroit Red Wings - 1st All-Star Appearance not a chance imo, both offensive, but datsyuk is already in the nhl
- Markus Naslund, Vancouver Canucks - 5th All-Star Appearance not a chance
- Jarome Iginla, Calgary Flames - 3rd All-Star Appearance hehe, no
- Patrick Marleau, San Jose Sharks - 1st All-Star Appearance not a chance, marleau now and marleau's potential into account
- Rick Nash, Columbus Blue Jackets - 1st All-Star Appearance umm, no
- Keith Tkachuk, St. Louis Blues - 4th All-Star Appearance same as guerin, salary reasons only
- Joe Sakic, Colorado Avalanche - 11th All-Star Appearance mr. captain/clutch.. no way
- Alex Tanguay, Colorado Avalanche - 1st All-Star Appearance not a chance

Defensemen
- * Rob Blake, Colorado Avalanche - 7th All-Star Appearance maybe b/c of salary, but now as a number 1 dman, not a chance
- * Nicklas Lidstrom, Detroit Red Wings - 8th All-Star Appearance no way
- Kimmo Timonen, Nashville Predators - 1st All-Star Appearance yes, but i'm not a fan of offensive dmen anyway, and nsh also has other guys on d to score
- Chris Pronger, St. Louis Blues - 4th All-Star Appearance not a chance
- Mattias Norstrom, Los Angeles Kings - 2nd All-Star Appearance i honestly wouldn't, norstrom is the type of d you always need/covet to win
- Filip Kuba, Minnesota Wild - 1st All-Star Appearance again, i honestly wouldn't, still holds great potential imo

Goaltenders
* Marty Turco, Dallas Stars - 2nd All-Star Appearance
Dwayne Roloson, Minnesota Wild - 1st All-Star Appearance
Tomas Vokoun, Nashville Predators - 1st All-Star Appearance

rolson yes, but turco/vokoun.. not a chance

EASTERN CONFERENCE ALL-STARS
Forwards
- * Martin St. Louis, Tampa Bay Lightning - 2nd All-Star Appearance not a chance
- * Joe Thornton, Boston Bruins - 3rd All-Star Appearance hehe, no
- * Ilya Kovalchuk, Atlanta Thrashers - 1st All-Star Appearance hehe, no
- Robert Lang, Washington Capitals - 1st All-Star Appearance on the fence here honestly, for salary probably
- Mats Sundin, Toronto Maple Leafs - 8th All-Star Appearance not for me
- Marian Hossa, Ottawa Senators - 3rd All-Star Appearance not a chance
(Hossa has withdrawn due to injury)
- Jaromir Jagr, Washington Capitals - 9th All-Star Appearance yes, for $ and b/c jags is a woman
- Mark Messier, New York Rangers - 15th All-Star Appearance yes, age/uselessness currently
- Daniel Alfredsson, Ottawa Senators - 4th All-Star Appearance nope
- Jeremy Roenick, Philadelphia Flyers - 9th All-Star Appearance yes, salary/injuries
- Keith Primeau, Philadelphia Flyers - 2nd All-Star Appearance same as norstrom, a guy you win with, nope
- Gary Roberts, Toronto Maple Leafs - 3rd All-Star Appearance same as messier for age
- Glen Murray, Boston Bruins - 2nd All-Star Appearance yes actually, one dimensional static, for one dimensional with potential
(Murray named to replace Marian Hossa)

Defensemen
- * Scott Stevens, New Jersey Devils - 14th All-Star Appearance honestly no, i'd keep stevens until he dies
(Stevens has withdrawn due to injury)
- * Scott Niedermayer, New Jersey Devils - 3rd All-Star Appearance not a chance
- Sheldon Souray, Montreal Canadiens - 1st All-Star Appearance sure, injuries/mediocrity
- Adrian Aucoin, New York Islanders - 1st All-Star Appearance not for me, aucoin and his 30+ solid play
- Nick Boynton, Boston Bruins - 1st All-Star Appearance been a fav since ottawa, not a chance (personally)
- Wade Redden, Ottawa Senators - 2nd All-Star Appearance no way
(Redden has withdrawn due to injury)
- Brian Rafalski, New Jersey Devils - 1st All-Star Appearance similar to timmonen, although rafalski > kimo imo.. on the fence, but probably
(Rafalski named to replace Scott Stevens)
- Pavel Kubina, Tampa Bay Lightning - 1st All-Star Appearance not a chance
(Kubina named to replace Wade Redden)

Goaltenders
* Martin Brodeur, New Jersey Devils - 8th All-Star Appearance
Roberto Luongo, Florida Panthers - 1st All-Star Appearance
Jose Theodore, Montreal Canadiens - 2nd All-Star Appearance

not a hope on all three of these goalies


so who i would trade is pretty much old guys, bloated salaries, and "all stars" that are all stars b/c they had a good year..

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08-11-2005, 09:17 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
I concur with the lack of horses for DM. He'd would be great if he could be had, but I'd be happy with Ballard or Mara.
Dealing Ballard in the first place is looking worse and worse...

I'm none too pleased with Regier at the moment. I could've lived with moving Satan and Zhitnik at the last deadline OR making a move at that point to get them over the hump and slide into the 7/8 spot. But he did neither, has let talent go without recompense, dealt prospects to create a glaring need and massively misjudged this summer's signings. I'd say he'd best make his next deal work or his time may be coming to a close.

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08-11-2005, 09:29 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
so who i would trade is pretty much old guys, bloated salaries, and "all stars" that are all stars b/c they had a good year..
Teams will be looking to get younger and more creative offensively. That's generally the basis for my stance. Vanek will need to become a superstar before he commands a superstar return, but I think he'll be all-star caliber shortly (GMs should as well), and thus my position. Even though I like your avatar, I'm still pissed at your calling my post lame. (EDIT: I said I was pissed at your crack, but it didn't exactly sound right....)

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