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Western conference arms race

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Old
03-03-2014, 11:38 AM
  #26
Minor Boarding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
While I agree with you that Vanek and Moulson are not going to be difference makers, I don't see this "every indication" you are discussing. I see one speculative blog and that is about it.

Hfboards posters never want to see their teams make rental deals and every year GMs do it. Lombardi has always been a quick fix gm, since his days in San Jose too.

All that said, I think the teams in the west SHOULD stand pat. Whether they WILL is another story.
As a GM for the Kings, the only rental Dean Lombardi traded for was Regehr for a couple of 2nd round picks and Regehr is Sutters boy, so there was expected that Regehr might be willing to sign an extension with LA.

Other bigger trade deadline deals didn't include rentals....

In 2009:
TO CAR: Patrick O'Sullivan and a 2nd round pick
TO LAK: Justin Williams (2 more years on contract)

In 2010:
TO LAK: Jeff Halpern
TO TBL: Purcell (healthy scratch with the Kings) + 3rd round draft pick

TO LAK: Fredrik Modin
TO CBJ: conditional 7th rounder (condition: Kings winning the Stanley Cup that year)

TO LAK: Marco Sturm
TO BOS: future consideration

In 2011:
TO LAK: Dustin Penner (1 more year on his contract)
TO EDM: Colton Teubert (playing in the ECHL) + 1st round draft pick (Klefbom) + conditional 3rd round draft pick

In 2012:
TO LAK: Jeff Carter (long term signed on a cap friendly contract)
TO CBJ: Jack Johnson + 1st round draft pick (27th overall in 2014)

--------------------------------------------------
Same goes for Free agency trades:
Richards was signed to a long term contract. Smyth had a few more years on his contract.

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Old
03-03-2014, 11:44 AM
  #27
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Much as I think Vanek would be great with SJ, I don't see it. The best we could offer would be something like Nieto or a 1st+, but we'd have to include Havlat and be confident we could re-sign Vanek.

We'd still have a hole in our middle pairing LHD though, unless Braun or Demers can make the switch, and we have Burns move back to D.

With Burns up front:

Vanek - Thornton - Burns
Marleau - Couture - Wingels
Torres - Pavelski - Kennedy
Sheppard - Desjardins - Burish

Vlasic - Boyle
Demers - Braun
Irwin - Hannan

With Burns on D:


Vanek - Thornton - Pavelski
Marleau - Couture - Wingels
Torres - Desjardins - Kennedy
Sheppard - Burish - Brown/Kearns

Vlasic - Burns
Demers - Braun
Hannan - Boyle

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Old
03-03-2014, 11:46 AM
  #28
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I'm not a big MacDonald fan. I'd like Ehrhoff though.

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Old
03-03-2014, 11:48 AM
  #29
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I don't know why a couple of Islander fans are so enamored with the Kings making a rental deal. It's not going to happen. I like Vanek, and I like Moulson, but if you think Dean is giving up a package for either rental winger who is a guaranteed walk in the offseason, you're nuts.

We have no cap space and LA needs a defenseman above all else and values wingers the least. It is against Dean's religion to give up major assets for a rental winger. A cheap stopgap maybe, but there is no way he is paying the price for Vanek.

I don't know what it's like to be watching Snow for years on end, but in LA we can actually say that with certainty. Dean Lombardi is the most calculated GM in the league. He has rules, and he won't break them. He would never make the deal that St. Louis made.

The only possible way is if it is an elite defenseman and he has reason to believe that he could sign him in the offseason. That's the only high-priced rental possibility in Dean's book.

Unless Snow decides to drastically reduce the price, there is no move to be made. This happens every season. Everyone thought we were in on Iginla too, but there is just no way we pay the price for a winger. It has to be a signed player through trade or free agency. A rental winger isn't going to happen as Dean considers it to be too risky with assets.

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Old
03-03-2014, 11:50 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
Wish we could get Nieto+2nd for Callahan.
Honestly you wouldn't get Nieto straight up. We're not really looking to trade him, unless it's for a significant upgrade or one that's long term.

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Old
03-03-2014, 12:10 PM
  #31
Tyler Myers
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imo Moulson fits the Kings better while Vanek fits the Sharks. Moulson can be resigned with LA but i dont think Vanek will with the sharks

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Old
03-03-2014, 12:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by monochrome View Post
I don't think Bowman is keen on trading futures to fix a team that isn't broken, regardless of the fact we need a proper center.

I also think the Canucks would detect the cap dump with Bickell there and reject when they see his name. I believe Vancouver wants way more for Kesler than we have to give. Especially because he is actually not a rental despite how people are treating trade proposals involving him
I totally get that the Hawks would prefer to keep TT's cheap cap hit which will be an asset when Toews and Kane's extensions take effect, but adding Kesler at the expense of TT is hardly sacrificing the future when Kesler is 29, under contract for 2 more years (3 cup runs including this one) and very likely to look at an extension if he wins a cup there. I think TT has the potential to produce offensively at a similar level to Kesler eventually, but in any Hawks fans wildest imagination could he bring the defensive game and physicality? Not a chance.

For the Canucks, I don't think they'd be keen on Bickell's contract either, but they are looking for size and grit, and would be adding one of the better prospects in the game and an additional 1st. I've seen the rumoured PIT offer for Kesler, and I think this one is better.

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03-03-2014, 12:22 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Myers View Post
imo Moulson fits the Kings better while Vanek fits the Sharks. Moulson can be resigned with LA but i dont think Vanek will with the sharks
isnt Moulson on record saying that he has absolutely no interest in playing with the Kings ? call me crazy but i'm almost positive i've seen that a few times. LA needs another dman before a winger, even though a top 6 LW has been a need for the last few seasons

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Old
03-03-2014, 12:44 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
While I agree with you that Vanek and Moulson are not going to be difference makers, I don't see this "every indication" you are discussing. I see one speculative blog and that is about it.

Hfboards posters never want to see their teams make rental deals and every year GMs do it. Lombardi has always been a quick fix gm, since his days in San Jose too.

All that said, I think the teams in the west SHOULD stand pat. Whether they WILL is another story.
Here's an indication:

http://lakingsinsider.com/2014/03/03...d-we-get-here/

You could take it as posturing but Lombardi sounds pretty happy with what he's got. Of course he'll take an opportunity if it presents itself, but that should lead posters away from the omg-panic-arms-race-better-overspend that some folks seem to want to force on the Kings-Ducks-Hawks-etc..

Completely disagree about his "always a quick fix" GM nature too. You said it yourself (if I'm wrong, please correct me--I thought it was you in another thread)--the only "true" big-splash rental DL has done was what, Turgeon in SJ? We'll probably see a couple of minor moves like we always do, see above, but I doubt we expend assets for the big fish of any sort unless they're signed beyond this year/intend to re-sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
The KINGS dramatically overpaid for Penner because they wanted playoff help.

Lombardi has not made rental moves as the Kings gm, because he had other options. He probably does not this year.

I think it will be Amac and not Vanek who is a KING. But, i do think you will see an LA rental deal either way.
Yet Penner wasn't even a rental (had another year) and I dunno about the dramatic overpay. Agree to disagree I guess.

You may be right here. We are sort of painted into a corner.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:04 PM
  #35
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The whole premise of this tread is wrong. The Blues acquiring Miller and Ott was not the opening salvo in the WC arms race - it was the Blues responding to the Hawks opening power move when they acquired Peter Regin - 2nd line center extrordinaire

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:12 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
The whole premise of this tread is wrong. The Blues acquiring Miller and Ott was not the opening salvo in the WC arms race - it was the Blues responding to the Hawks opening power move when they acquired Peter Regin - 2nd line center extrordinaire
"The Blues did WHAT?!? ...get me the red phone. Pirri for picks NOW."

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:19 PM
  #37
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haha good stuff up there...

Teams fit a trading pattern until they don't...teams don't rebuild forever (ahem) or stay contenders for long.

Any GM is capable of going for it on a rental in spite of their track record, especially if their team has needs. What the market commands is out of their control- someone will pony up.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:23 PM
  #38
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Someone will, but it won't be LA unless you're retaining half of his salary and accepting a 1st and a mid prospect.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluechipbonzo View Post
haha good stuff up there...

Teams fit a trading pattern until they don't...teams don't rebuild forever (ahem) or stay contenders for long.

Any GM is capable of going for it on a rental in spite of their track record, especially if their team has needs. What the market commands is out of their control- someone will pony up.
Very true. Just looking at trends and using that to buck what some posters keep wanting to throw at the Kings specifically (i.e. some combination of Toffoli/Vey 1st 2014 1st 2015).

It's not that I fully disagree with Darth Milbury, I just don't think the Kings are the team that will pony up multiple high picks and prospects because we need those assets to fill longer-term holes at LW and top-pairing D. We use those assets now, then we're out important picks/prospects, don't get to pick until the third round to restock our cupboard, and we're right back to square one with less assets. You make that move if it puts you over-the-top like Miller to the Blues; I don't think Moulson/Vanek to the Kings makes them much scarier.

tldr we don't have the assets to spend to keep up with the Joneses.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:33 PM
  #40
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do you think any team will give the ****in all star heatley one last chance to reignite his offensive prowess?

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:42 PM
  #41
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For sure it's all about wiggle room under the cap because the playoffs in the West are going to be like WW3. I also wouldn't count St. Louis out from making another move. They swapped Miller for Halak in salary and cleared Stewart's off the books. They've got room to add. Callahan or Moulson to St. Louis could be easily done and depending on who they move out, Vanek or Gabby aren't out of the question.

Leopold, Jake Allen, & 1st to the Island should be plenty to get Vanek and Gabby could probably be had for less. Certainly JD is eyeing some prospects in the St. Louis system.
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do you think any team will give the ****in all star heatley one last chance to reignite his offensive prowess?
I really can't see why.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:48 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
As a GM for the Kings, the only rental Dean Lombardi traded for was Regehr for a couple of 2nd round picks and Regehr is Sutters boy, so there was expected that Regehr might be willing to sign an extension with LA.

Other bigger trade deadline deals didn't include rentals....

In 2009:
TO CAR: Patrick O'Sullivan and a 2nd round pick
TO LAK: Justin Williams (2 more years on contract)

In 2010:
TO LAK: Jeff Halpern
TO TBL: Purcell (healthy scratch with the Kings) + 3rd round draft pick

TO LAK: Fredrik Modin
TO CBJ: conditional 7th rounder (condition: Kings winning the Stanley Cup that year)

TO LAK: Marco Sturm
TO BOS: future consideration

In 2011:
TO LAK: Dustin Penner (1 more year on his contract)
TO EDM: Colton Teubert (playing in the ECHL) + 1st round draft pick (Klefbom) + conditional 3rd round draft pick

In 2012:
TO LAK: Jeff Carter (long term signed on a cap friendly contract)
TO CBJ: Jack Johnson + 1st round draft pick (27th overall in 2014)

--------------------------------------------------
Same goes for Free agency trades:
Richards was signed to a long term contract. Smyth had a few more years on his contract.
This, I suppose Lombardi could change his normal pattern but I doubt it. Dude is not going to pay for a rental forward. Why do you think he was after Gagner? Cuz he is signed beyond this year.

I would guess off season Kings might target a UFA guy like Milan Michálek.

If they trade now it would be for a guy like Fleischmann..

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03-03-2014, 01:51 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluechipbonzo View Post
haha good stuff up there...

Teams fit a trading pattern until they don't...teams don't rebuild forever (ahem) or stay contenders for long.

Any GM is capable of going for it on a rental in spite of their track record, especially if their team has needs. What the market commands is out of their control- someone will pony up.
IDK, it sure seems like some teams are rebuilding forever.

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Old
03-03-2014, 01:56 PM
  #44
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If Gaborik is truly being shopped, that does vault him over Vanek as the best scoring rental on the market at the best value? Does it tighten things up? Or are there still health concerns with him?

I would imagine he would come cheaper than Vanek, thus might be a better option.

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Old
03-03-2014, 02:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by gqmixmaster View Post
LA needs Moulson + a 2nd line Dman (Ehrhoff)?

what would they send the other way though? Does buffalo actually want more picks?
Honestly....the way all of these teams seem to be developing, depth pieces will be the main thing they look for. Someone like Ehrhoff would be a great fit on pretty much any of the teams, and wouldn't be a rental.

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Old
03-03-2014, 02:05 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monochrome View Post
I don't think Bowman is keen on trading futures to fix a team that isn't broken, regardless of the fact we need a proper center.

I also think the Canucks would detect the cap dump with Bickell there and reject when they see his name. I believe Vancouver wants way more for Kesler than we have to give. Especially because he is actually not a rental despite how people are treating trade proposals involving him
No I think it's a fairly good offer.

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Old
03-03-2014, 03:24 PM
  #47
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LA pretty much just has to worry about how to get past SJ. That's their likely opponent in the 1st round (since Anaheim will win the division and get a wild card team). If they don't get past them, how they match up against STL/ANA/CHI/etc doesn't matter, and if they do get past them (and the more quickly, the better), the confidence from it will carry into the next round and will provide a boost greater than multiple rentals. LA's players have said repeatedly that they didn't really get the sense that '12 might be their year until they beat Vancouver in the first round. That confidence carried into the 2nd round, and it wasn't until that 2nd round that they really started steamrolling. Also, all of the frustration and concern that has built up this season will evaporate if they win the 1st round, and it'll be easier for them to feel that they're the same team that they were in the last two playoffs.

One might argue that LA proved last year that they could beat SJ with what they already have, but there are few big problems with that. First, LA had home ice advantage and needed it (every game was won by the home team, including Game 7). This year, SJ will have home ice advantage. Second, going to 7 games in the 1st round is not a good way to start what you hope is a long run. Third, SJ is a little angry at LA, not just for ending their dreams last year, but for Brown hurting Hertl this season. Finally, you could say that both LA's offense and defense haven't been clicking as well as they were a year ago. None of that means that LA can't still beat SJ as is (and that doesn't even take into consideration that SJ, themselves, might improve at the deadline), but is it a gamble that they can afford to make?

From my armchair, it seems that LA needs a little bit of help to be able to beat SJ in a series again (or, at least, improve on coin flip odds). That doesn't necessarily mean that they need to acquire one of the big names available, but just something (preferably at forward and defense) to shake things up a tad, as well as provide depth/insurance. LA is built like a bear, but one which loves to hibernate and needs to be poked now and then to wake it up.


Last edited by Osprey: 03-03-2014 at 03:47 PM.
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Old
03-03-2014, 03:44 PM
  #48
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I usually hate the rhetoric of "injured players coming back is like a trade acquisition," but for the Sharks if they get Hertl back for playoffs that's as good as gold:

Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Marleau-Couture-Wingels
Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy
Havlat-Desjardins-Nieto/Sheppard
(maybe the lines are not exact, but that's your top 12/13 for playoffs with everyone incl. Hertl healthy)

I think that's pretty damn good to roll into the playoffs with. Sharks could maybe use a dman, but they could roll with no move unless someone makes an offer they can't refuse.

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Old
03-03-2014, 03:49 PM
  #49
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But...But what about the East?...

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03-03-2014, 03:49 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Doty View Post
Completely disagree about his "always a quick fix" GM nature too. You said it yourself (if I'm wrong, please correct me--I thought it was you in another thread)--the only "true" big-splash rental DL has done was what, Turgeon in SJ?
Pierre Turgeon was never a Shark. Deano's pure rental in SJ was John Maclean in 97-98 season. Traded for him from the Devils and as a UFA at seasons end, Johnny Mac went right back to the Devils. Deano also traded for Damphousse, but I don't recall if he was UFA at the end of the 99-00 season. I know he was still around for years to come, but I don't recall if the Sharks had to resign him after 99-00 season.

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