HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > St. Louis Blues
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

2014 NHL Draft Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-04-2014, 06:31 PM
  #1
EastonBlues22
Mod Supervisor
Team ϶(o)ϵ
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 9,805
vCash: 500
2014 NHL Draft Discussion

There's a few posts that appeared today relevant to this topic that deserve some exposure, so it's time to fire up the annual discussion thread.

I'll copy over the relevant posts.

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
03-04-2014, 06:35 PM
  #2
EastonBlues22
Mod Supervisor
Team ϶(o)ϵ
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 9,805
vCash: 500
Posted by rumrokh in another thread:

I got a wild hair up my hockey hole and decided to walk down the path of the value of the picks the Blues will give up. Not to prove or disprove anything, really, but regardless of what Blues fans think, opinions from fans around the league are all over the map. If there's one thing that everyone loves, but the value of which cannot be agreed upon, it's a first round pick.
I suspect there are at least a few big reasons for that, namely 1. that's where many teams got their best players, 2. "first round" is an easier/more common grouping than something like top 10, top 20, etc., which might be more useful, and 3. it's just exciting to see your favorite team go up to the podium and bring in well-hyped talent with a few words.

Anyway, I'm examining two particular items. First, in this post, the value of the first and second round picks acquired by selling teams from 2006 to 2010. Not the biggest window, but not entirely arbitrary. I think five years is solid and it's the modern era in which the salary cap has been implemented and the cycle of the Blues from worst in the league to where they are today.
Second, in a future post, the value of picks in that range in general (including how long it takes for those players to make an NHL impact). I'll probably reach beyond 2006 for this, but we'll see.

In a couple cases, I'm looking at "extra" values just for the sake of a complete picture. One such case is in 2006, when the Blues got pick #30 for Weight, but flipped it with #77 for #25 to get Berglund. Selling Weight to Carolina, as far as we're concerned, directly landed them Berglund, but it's also important to me to examine the value of what that trade originally landed, too. It's fuzzy, but it's worth it and I don't include any other pick-for-pick deals except these that come directly from sold players.
In some cases, I've skipped over some multi-trade complications with players and just listed the relevant pick. In some cases, I have also not bothered to list pick vs. pick situations because it was an even enough or late enough swap and everybody involved sucked.

For the sake of brevity, I'm omitting the original deals and just focusing on the net gain of the selling team. You can look them up if you're curious - some are pretty interesting.

2006
17, LAK: Trevor Lewis
23, WAS: Semyon Varlamov
25, STL: Patrik Berglund VS #30: Corrente & #77: Zharkov
35, WAS: Francois Bouchard
38, ANH: Bryce Swan
46, BUF: Jhonas Enroth
50, BOS: Milan Lucic
52, WAS: Keith Seabrook
59, COL: Codey Burki
60, NYI: Jesse Joensuu
61, CHI: Simon Danis-Pepin

2007
9, SJS: Logan Couture - this one is very weird because it's all about San Jose selling Toskala and Bell to Toronto for picks which they then juggled with the Blues. It's basically Couture VS #13: Lars Eller, #44: Aaron Palushaj & (2008) #87: Ian Schultz
15, EDM: Alex Plante
16, MIN: Colton Gillies VS #19: Logan MacMillan & #42: Eric Tangradi
18, STL: Ian Cole VS #24: Mikael Backlund & #70: John Negrin
21, EDM: Riley Nash VS #30: Nick Ross & #36: Joel Gistedt
22, MON: Max Pacioretty
23, NSH: Jon Blum - this one is weird because the Predators gave it up in buying Forsberg and then reacquired it at the draft for Timonen & Hartnell. I still consider it a case of making a buy/sell draft selection.
26, STL: David Perron
28, SJS: Nick Petrecki VS #41: Kevin Marshall & (2008) #57: Eric Mestery
31, BUF: T.J. Brennan
33, VAN: Taylor Ellington
46, WAS: Theo Ruth
49, COL: Trevor Cann
50, DAL: Nico Sacchetti
52, LAK: Oscar Moller
55, COL: T.J. Galiardi
56, CHI: Akim Aliu
58, NSH: Nick Spaling
61, LAK: Wayne Simmonds

2008
7, NSH: Colin Wilson VS #9: Josh Bailey & #40 Aaron Ness
9, NYI: Josh Bailey - I'm including a second time because this pick was also originally part of a "purchase"
12, BUF: Tyler Myers - I'm including this pick because it was compensation for Edmonton signing Penner. Then it went through a complicated ringer of trades. I'm not going to include all of the picks, but you can look at them here.
17, ANH: Jake Gardiner
19, PHI: Luca Sbisa
22, EDM: Jordan Eberle
25, CGY: Greg Nemisz
26, BUF: Tyler Ennis
27, WAS: John Carlson
28, PHX: Viktor Tikhonov
29, ATL: Daultan Leveille
31, FLA: Jacob Markstrom
33, STL: Philip McRae
38, NSH: Roman Josi VS #46: Colby Robak & #76: Mathieu Brodeur
40, NYI: Aaron Ness - again, including this a second time because it was originally part of in another buy/sell deal
42, OTT: Patrick Wiercioch
43, ANH: Justin Schultz (more Penner compensation)
48, CGY: Mitch Wahl
49, PHX: Jared Staal
53, NYI: Travis Hamonic
60, TOR: Jimmy Hayes
61, COL: Peter Delmas

2009
21, CBJ: John Moore VS #26 Kyle Palmieri & #37: Mat Clark
26, ANH: Kyle Palmieri - I listed him twice because this was also a buy/sell deal pick (sold many times)
42, NSH: Charles-Olivier Roussel
43, SJS: William Wrenn
45, ATL: Jeremy Morin
46, OTT: Robin Lehner
49, COL: Stefan Elliott
50, TOR: Kenny Ryan
51, CAR: Brian Dumoulin
52, TBL: Richard Panik
56, CBJ: Kevin Lynch VS #62: Anders Nilsson & #92: Casey Cizikas
58, TOR: Jesse Blacker

2010
This begins with Seguin, which I don't count because it's not a case of buying/selling, it's value for a holdout who was from a team that was one point away from the best record in the league.
13, PHX: Brandon Gormley
15, LAK: Derek Forbort VS #19: Nick Bjugstad & #59: Jason Zucker
24, CHI: Kevin Hayes
25, FLA: Quinton Howden
29, ANH: Emerson Etem
32, BOS: Jared Knight - this was part of the Seguin deal, but is included because it was part of an earlier sale
36, FLA: Alexander Petrovic
43, TOR: Brad Ross
46, EDM: Martin Marincin
48, EDM: Curtis Hamilton
50, FLA: Connor Brickley
53, CAR: Mark Alt
54, CHI: Justin Holl
55, CBJ: Petr Straka
56, MIN: Johan Larsson
58, CHI: Kent Simpson
59, MIN: Jason Zucker

Out of this giant pile of crap, you have many solid players and some guys who remain good prospects. There are over 80 picks and about 35 guys are current NHLers (it's wobbly because some have just made it or have played a lot this year, but have been sent down).
The impact players: Varlamov, Lucic, Couture, Pacioretty, Carlson, Berglund, Enroth, Perron, Simmonds, Myers, Josi, Lehner, Schultz, Bjugstad. So, out of all of the bought draft picks, you're really looking at about five players over five years who are top talent, with the potential for a few more to emerge. And mid-teens total impact players out of 80+ picks, about half-and-half first and second rounders.

The average draft position of those impact players was #32. Washington, Buffalo, and St. Louis each produced a pair. The rest went to Boston, San Jose, Montreal, LA, Nashville, Ottawa, Anaheim, and Florida.
Only eight out of twenty-seven first rounders (average position of #22, using original picks acquired, not picks after a secondary trade) resulted in an impact player. 35 total first rounders were involved if you include swaps, and you can likely say that at least 10 of those were absolute busts (non-NHL players) - the jury is still out on some, but that number is likely to increase.

I'll be curious to see how these results stack up to the rest of the picks in that range. I'll do the analysis on 2nd rounders and then picks in that range in general in the next installment. I might need a third installment for analyzing the number of years after the draft it takes for these players to become NHLers or impact performers.

So far, all scouting staffs and drafts being equal, we're currently looking at worse than 1/3 for late 1st rounders resulting in impact players (the Blues' hit-rate in that span was 2/5). And worse than 1/8 resulting in real top talent. Even if you disagree about one or two impact players, for example, I think we're in a close enough range to say that unless the draft rocks and unless your team's drafting rocks, picks outside of the first half of the first round mostly suck and most teams won't miss a few. I'm especially interested to see if 2nd rounders are any worse than late first rounders.

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
03-04-2014, 06:36 PM
  #3
EastonBlues22
Mod Supervisor
Team ϶(o)ϵ
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 9,805
vCash: 500
Posted by tfriede2 in another thread:

Wasn't sure where to post this, but didn't want to dedicate a thread to it. Here goes:

Anyone think there is any possibility of the Blues picking Thatcher Demko (goalie) if he's available when we draft with Edmonton's pick (assuming we still have the pick)? Picking Demko would be the result of signing Miller to a 4-5 year deal, and it would lead to dealing Allen for a decent return.

First, the reasons why we won't pick Demko:

1) I don't think Demko will be there when we pick;
2) I think the Blues are high on Allen and expect him to contend for the starting spot sooner rather than later.
3) Goalie is probably the toughest position to project future success, especially draft-eligible goalies. We all remember, Schwarz, for example.
4) The Blues should focus on where they have the least organizational depth, ie, center, at the draft.

Reasons why the Blues may pick Demko:

1) Demko is somehow still available when they pick at 31;
2) The Blues have either already signed or have a deal in place to sign Miller for 4-5 years, in which case Allen wouldn't be a starter until he's 27 or 28;
3) With Miller signed, the Blues would just need to find a capable backup, or opt to re-sign Elliott, thus making Allen expendable. Plus, if Miller is signed for 4-5 years, Allen might not want to sign for a longer term with the Blues, instead opting for free agency (although I think he still has RFA status for 4 more years? May be a moot point then).
4) The Blues could potentially get a decent return for Allen, perhaps a top center prospect, which then makes picking Demko more palatable.
5) If things go right, Demko would be projected to be in Allen's current shoes (knocking on NHL door) when Miller's deal expires. I put this one last, because it's never good to project a draft pick to be in the NHL within 4 years, especially if that draft pick is a goalie.

6) Demko just gives us more options - we wouldn't need to trade Allen right away (or at all). We can first wait to see if Miller (assuming he signs) plays consistently well, and we can also wait to see if Demko continues progressing. If Miller falters and Allen steps in and becomes the starter, no problem - we can keep Demko to be a potential backup in 4-5 years anyway.

EastonBlues22 is offline  
Old
03-08-2014, 10:47 PM
  #4
Prussian_Blue
Registered User
 
Prussian_Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Germany
Posts: 7,737
vCash: 500
I don't see the Blues spending their first pick in this draft (as it stands now) on any goaltender, Thatcher Demko or otherwise.

The Blues seem to be high on Jake Allen, and if they are able to re-sign Miller, Allen will be the backup next year, and probably get 20-30 starts in the NHL.

Jordan Binnington should take over as the starter with the Wolves, and Niklas Lundstrom (already signed to his ELC) and Francois Tremblay (fourth-year QMJHL player) should be battling for a spot as Binnington's backup in Chicago, with the loser of the battle likely getting premium starts in Kalamazoo.

The Blues probably should draft a goalie this year, maybe even two (one from major junior, one college-bound player), to keep the pipeline stocked... but there are organizational needs (read: "centers") that really should be a priority to be addressed with the higher picks.

Prussian_Blue is offline  
Old
03-30-2014, 06:36 PM
  #5
bleedblue1223
Fire Army
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32,606
vCash: 50
A couple centers that will be available in the early-mid 2nd, Brayden Point and Jayce Hawryluk could be intriguing. Both are smaller, but play bigger than their size and reading their scouting reports, you would think you are reading reports on Schwartz and Sobotka.

Whether it's one of these or one of the bigger centers, I would be very disappointed if we didn't come away with 1 or 2 centers by the end of the 2nd round.

bleedblue1223 is offline  
Old
03-30-2014, 06:53 PM
  #6
Hooliganx3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
A couple centers that will be available in the early-mid 2nd, Brayden Point and Jayce Hawryluk could be intriguing. Both are smaller, but play bigger than their size and reading their scouting reports, you would think you are reading reports on Schwartz and Sobotka.

Whether it's one of these or one of the bigger centers, I would be very disappointed if we didn't come away with 1 or 2 centers by the end of the 2nd round.
Al Macs son is my personal target. He has all the tools to be a top 6 center.

Hooliganx3 is offline  
Old
03-30-2014, 07:08 PM
  #7
bleedblue1223
Fire Army
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32,606
vCash: 50
Hopefully we don't just pick him because he is Chopper's son or because he is a local kid, kind of backfired on us when we did that with McRae to make up for passing on Stastny.

bleedblue1223 is offline  
Old
03-31-2014, 07:45 PM
  #8
Daley Tarasenkshow
The Notorious
 
Daley Tarasenkshow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St. Louis MO
Country: United States
Posts: 5,507
vCash: 1050
I think MacInnis is overrated. I didn't like what I saw in the games I saw him, just wasn't bulky or strong enough, and didn't have a 'wow' factor.

If a guy like Fabbri drops to the Blues, they should take him in a heartbeat. He's the main player this team needs at center. I hope he drops.

Demko wouldn't be a bad pick, but it wouldn't be a good one either. He has good value and will follow in the footsteps of players such as Allen, Subban, Gibson, and others, but he's not what this team needs.

Vrana would be nice if he drops, but Fiala and Hawryluk are the likely options.

Daley Tarasenkshow is offline  
Old
03-31-2014, 08:58 PM
  #9
Alklha
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14,167
vCash: 868
How much of Fabbri have you seen? I've only seen him play twice, but he struck me as someone who is going to project as a winger as he progresses through the ranks. Might be wrong and his size is pushing me to think that.

On the Euros, Vladislav Kamenev is interesting. He is a winger, big body, skating needs some work but has a good all round game and has a pretty aggressive checking game. If he is still on the board when we use the Minnesota 2nd (assuming we lose our first) then that is who I'd pick.

Nick Schmaltz is this years Hertl for me, if he is still on the board around the 20 pick, we should be trying to move up.

Alklha is offline  
Old
04-22-2014, 09:05 AM
  #10
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,978
vCash: 500
Not a draft prospect - possible over-age free agent

Todd Fiddler - seems to have some off-ice issues maybe

execwrite is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 09:45 AM
  #11
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,978
vCash: 500
33) Jayce Hawryluk - C
50) Brett Pollock - C
57) Connor Chatham - RW
61) Pavel Jenys - C
87) Ryan Donato - C


Last edited by execwrite: 04-23-2014 at 10:46 AM.
execwrite is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 10:37 AM
  #12
tfriede2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
33) Jayce Hawryluk - C
50) Brett Pollock - C
57) Connor Chatham - RW
61) Pavel Jenys - C
87) Oskar Lindblom - LW
Whose picks are these? Looks like there's an extra one, but I'm sure I'm just missing it (edit: nevermind, I got it).

33rd - Edmonton's 2nd
50th - Minnesota 2nd (if Blues reach WCF or Miller re-signs before draft)
57th - Blues 2nd
61st - Buffalo 3rd (If Blues reach WCF or Miller re-signs before draft)
87th - our 3rd rounder

Would you rather have the Blues' 1st rounder (say, 26th) vice the extra 50th and 61st picks? Just assume this means we don't re-sign Miller and go with Allen/Elliott or Allen/UFA.

tfriede2 is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 01:12 PM
  #13
execwrite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 3,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfriede2 View Post
Whose picks are these? Looks like there's an extra one, but I'm sure I'm just missing it (edit: nevermind, I got it).

33rd - Edmonton's 2nd
50th - Minnesota 2nd (if Blues reach WCF or Miller re-signs before draft)
57th - Blues 2nd
61st - Buffalo 3rd (If Blues reach WCF or Miller re-signs before draft)
87th - our 3rd rounder

Would you rather have the Blues' 1st rounder (say, 26th) vice the extra 50th and 61st picks? Just assume this means we don't re-sign Miller and go with Allen/Elliott or Allen/UFA.
I'd be very happy with these five guys and wouldn't mind losing the first-round pick.

Note - changed the 87th pick to Donato

execwrite is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 02:25 PM
  #14
tfriede2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
I'd be very happy with these five guys and wouldn't mind losing the first-round pick.

Note - changed the 87th pick to Donato
Donato, eh? I've read an article or two which indicate he is on a lot of teams' radar, and he could be a 2nd or even a 1st round pick (this was a comment from one of the scouts on this board, but from a couple of months ago).

tfriede2 is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 03:53 PM
  #15
berglund
go
 
berglund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 74,302
vCash: 50
Hopefully they don't go for Demko. Grab a few wildcard goalies in the later rounds, goalies are the most unpredictable as prospects.

__________________
Follow me on Twitter @BluesIn4
berglund is offline  
Old
04-23-2014, 04:55 PM
  #16
Lord Helix
CarvinSigX
 
Lord Helix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Zeta[-1]
Posts: 13,236
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
33) Jayce Hawryluk - C
50) Brett Pollock - C
57) Connor Chatham - RW
61) Pavel Jenys - C
87) Ryan Donato - C
Haha...I made note of Chatham to Easton a couple of years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blues went after him.

Lord Helix is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 04:53 AM
  #17
tfriede2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite View Post
33) Jayce Hawryluk - C
50) Brett Pollock - C
57) Connor Chatham - RW
61) Pavel Jenys - C
87) Ryan Donato - C
Well, the way things are shaking out, the Blues could have the 22nd pick if we don't re-sign Miller and we don't advance past 1st round. They would have the following picks (I think this is right, someone correct me if I'm wrong):

22nd
33rd
52nd
82nd

We could easily be in shape to get Schmaltz and MacInnis, or Larkin and MacInnis, although Larkin could go earlier. We could realistically get any of these combinations with the 22nd/33rd, with a little luck: Fabbri/Schmaltz, Fabbri/MacInnis, Schmaltz/MacInnis, Tuch/MacInnis, Larkin/MacInnis etc. Or, we would be in shape to trade our 22/33rd picks for a 10-12 pick and pick up someone like Nylander, but I think I'd rather hold on to the 22/33rd picks...we can't afford to be giving away more picks on one guy who might not pan out.

I wouldn't be against using our 22nd on Schmaltz, then using the 33rd on Lemieux (Claude Lemieux's son). He had 27 goals/53 points this year.

tfriede2 is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 05:56 AM
  #18
JustOneB4IDie
Duel Cancer Survivor
 
JustOneB4IDie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Imperial, Missouri
Country: United States
Posts: 3,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Al Macs son is my personal target. He has all the tools to be a top 6 center.
I'm Skeptical on MacInnis having all the tools as a top 6 Center. The Blues also thought that in 2008 when they drafted Basil's son, Center Phillip McRae early in the 2nd round also we all know how that turned out.

JustOneB4IDie is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 09:17 AM
  #19
MattyMo35
Schwartz Be With You
 
MattyMo35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 14,493
vCash: 500
I would steer clear of Ryan. I wasn't all that impressed with him(as I've said before) when I saw him play in St. Louis a few times, and his numbers in the OHL certainly aren't doing much to change my opinion. He's big, and his last name is Macinnis. If his last name was Smith, I honestly think we're looking at a 3rd/4th round pick.

Also, I highly doubt we're in a position to draft Fabbri. He's shooting up draft boards from what I've read. I know next to nothing about him(only what I've read and seen in highlight videos) but he seems like the kind of player teams are starting to fall in love with. He's smaller, but he's quick, has good hands, and according to several reports he has great hockey IQ. He also wears number 9. Sounds like a player I've seen before. Can't quite put my finger on it....

MattyMo35 is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 07:13 PM
  #20
bleedblue1223
Fire Army
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32,606
vCash: 50
I think we'll definitely be seeing the Schmaltz brothers in St. Louis if we are out in round 1.

bleedblue1223 is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 07:21 PM
  #21
Vladys Gumption
Global Moderator
Colt55
 
Vladys Gumption's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 17,386
vCash: 500
Let's hope so. I think Nick is going to be a very, very good player.

Vladys Gumption is offline  
Old
04-26-2014, 07:48 PM
  #22
Oberyn
Prince of Dorne
 
Oberyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,757
vCash: 12806
Nick Schmaltz is the dream pick for me.

Oberyn is offline  
Old
04-27-2014, 05:35 PM
  #23
MattyMo35
Schwartz Be With You
 
MattyMo35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 14,493
vCash: 500
Well, time to start thinking draft and free agency. Boy I hope a center is the BPA when the Blues pick in the first and second round. we need an impact center in the pipeline. Hell, we need a center in the pipeline period. My dream scenario would be

1st: Top 6 center with speed
Edm. 2nd: Defensively sound 3rd line center.
2nd: Mean, physical right handed Dman.

MattyMo35 is offline  
Old
04-27-2014, 05:36 PM
  #24
bleedblue1223
Fire Army
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32,606
vCash: 50
At least we should end up with Schmaltz now.

bleedblue1223 is offline  
Old
04-27-2014, 05:46 PM
  #25
tfriede2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
At least we should end up with Schmaltz now.
Yep, we should have the 22nd pick, so long as we don't re-sign Miller before the draft (God, I hope not). Schmaltz at 22, Donato or Hawryluk or Kamenev at 33. Go for big d-men with the 52nd and 82nd picks (Ryan Mantha, for example). With Schmaltz and Hawryluk/Donato/Kamenev, our center depth is all of a sudden decent.

tfriede2 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.