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The Team Whipping Boy

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Old
05-14-2014, 11:49 AM
  #1
BillyShoe1721
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The Team Whipping Boy

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When the team with the fifth largest payroll in the league is ousted in the first round of the playoffs, questions need to be asked. One already has been, and it was answered with Ron Hextall replacing Paul Holmgren as GM of the Flyers. Whether fair or not, fingers get pointed at the end of the season. People tend to blame the players that underperformed the most in the playoffs, and itís been no different in Philadelphia in recent times.

The recency effect states that people can best recall the items that come last in a sequence. In the case of the Flyers, fans are remembering the lukewarm performances of Braydon Coburn and Scott Hartnell in the first round loss against the Rangers. Coburn made a few costly turnovers, and Hartnell was demoted from the Claude Giroux line after the unit was largely ineffective to begin the series. As a result, they have received a lionís share of the blame for the Flyersí loss.
http://thehockeywriters.com/philadel...whipping-boys/

Who is least deserving of the whipping boy status they receive? I think it's Coburn and Hartnell. Grossmann, and both Schenns deserve it to an extent for me, but I don't think Coburn or Hartnell deserve it at all.

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05-14-2014, 11:57 AM
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Striiker
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I think it's pretty obvious who deserves it the least... Giroux. The idiot media and some idiot posters getting on his ass makes no sense.

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05-14-2014, 12:01 PM
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flyershockey
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How about not desginating a sacrificial lamb to blame all the team's problems on? This team as a whole still has a lot of needs, and not one player alone cost them a series win.

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05-14-2014, 12:04 PM
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chupanibre
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Why do you exclude Hartnell?

I think Hartnell deserves it as much as anyone. What has he done to spare himself from criticism? He's been less than spectacular for much of the seasons and was quite horrendous in the playoffs.

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05-14-2014, 12:13 PM
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JDinkalage Morgoone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chupanibre View Post
Why do you exclude Hartnell?

I think Hartnell deserves it as much as anyone. What has he done to spare himself from criticism? He's been less than spectacular for much of the seasons and was quite horrendous in the playoffs.
he had another 20 goal 50 point season. He's making at or below league average of comparable players with honestly worse stats (Clowe, Clarkson, etc.) Hartnell gets a lot of ******** criticism. Sure, he's not above criticism, but he's a whipping boy around here.

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05-14-2014, 12:37 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinkalage Morgoone View Post
he had another 20 goal 50 point season. He's making at or below league average of comparable players with honestly worse stats (Clowe, Clarkson, etc.) Hartnell gets a lot of ******** criticism. Sure, he's not above criticism, but he's a whipping boy around here.
Hartnell gets criticism to the point where I don't even think some people even really think before they post anymore. I've seen claims that he's lazy, slow, & terrible defensively. The guy may be inconsistent at times but it's not because a lack of effort the guy is always on his hustle out there, he also gets up & down the rink at a pretty good speed he's just not a dynamic skater so it's not as pretty east to west, & as for defensively he's not a stalwart but he's an excellent back checker & is usually in a good position to make adequate plays defensively.

I get the concerns about his contract but to me the length is the concern not the caphit. Hartnell's not a first line player for the most part but unfortunately has to be put there because there's no other options but he's still a good secondary scoring line player.

I mean we had someone claim in the prospects thread the other day that Taylor Leier would be a better replacement on the first line than Hartnell the other day.

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05-14-2014, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
http://thehockeywriters.com/philadel...whipping-boys/

Who is least deserving of the whipping boy status they receive? I think it's Coburn and Hartnell. Grossmann, and both Schenns deserve it to an extent for me, but I don't think Coburn or Hartnell deserve it at all.
I don't agree with the Schenn's at all. One was one of the team's best d-men in the playoffs (Streit was probably the best) and the other is a 22 year old who only saw 14 minutes a game and still had three points (as many or more then Vinny, Read and Hartnell the latter two got way more ice time as well). During the regular season B Schenn produced well given his ice time and Luke was on the 3rd paring and still only really struggled when paired with Mez.

Grossmann played a bigger role on the team (~20 min a game) and was not good in that role so he deserves some blame. The primary reason Vinny was brought here was to take some pressure off of Giroux but he couldn't even hold down a job on the "2nd" line. He's another one that deserves blame.

Hartnell and Coburn were underwhelming in the playoffs but that wasn't the case during the regular season, especially Coburn. I don't think this team is even in the playoffs without Coburn back there.

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05-14-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Hartnell gets criticism to the point where I don't even think some people even really think before they post anymore. I've seen claims that he's lazy, slow, & terrible defensively. The guy may be inconsistent at times but it's not because a lack of effort the guy is always on his hustle out there, he also gets up & down the rink at a pretty good speed he's just not a dynamic skater so it's not as pretty east to west, & as for defensively he's not a stalwart but he's an excellent back checker & is usually in a good position to make adequate plays defensively.

I get the concerns about his contract but to me the length is the concern not the caphit. Hartnell's not a first line player for the most part but unfortunately has to be put there because there's no other options but he's still a good secondary scoring line player.

I mean we had someone claim in the prospects thread the other day that Taylor Leier would be a better replacement on the first line than Hartnell the other day.
Yeah it's out of hand. Also he's been carried his whole career. It's a coincidence he's been a part of three lines who experienced major success here (Giroux-Jagr, Carter-Lupul, Briere-Leino). The other two were always carrying him.

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05-14-2014, 01:07 PM
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healthyscratch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
How about not desginating a sacrificial lamb to blame all the team's problems on? This team as a whole still has a lot of needs, and not one player alone cost them a series win.
This is the correct answer.

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05-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
This is the correct answer.
I thought Gus would be

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05-14-2014, 01:14 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Yeah it's out of hand. Also he's been carried his whole career. It's a coincidence he's been a part of three lines who experienced major success here (Giroux-Jagr, Carter-Lupul, Briere-Leino). The other two were always carrying him.
I don't know the way he's described by some around here it's like a consistent act of god that he's been a 20 goals/50 points guy his entire career as a Flyer.

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05-14-2014, 01:27 PM
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Beef Invictus
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Must....resist....

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05-14-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Must....resist....


Just blame it on Leighton. Until this team wins a cup it's all Leighton's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I don't know the way he's described by some around here it's like a consistent act of god that he's been a 20 goals/50 points guy his entire career as a Flyer.
250 career goals and closing in on 537 points (regular season numbers), god must really like this guy.

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05-14-2014, 01:30 PM
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JDinkalage Morgoone
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Must....resist....
Let it out

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05-14-2014, 01:31 PM
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MickeyMelchiondo
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Hartnell=
4 goals in his last 29 playoff games
28 goals in his last 110 regular season games
playing with #28 and on the 1st PP unit the whole time...

if you haven't noticed his regression in the last couple of years, you're not paying attention

[i'm not saying he is or deserves to be a "whipping boy," just pointing out his dismal play over the past 2 seasons]

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05-14-2014, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
Hartnell=
4 goals in his last 29 playoff games
28 goals in his last 110 regular season games
playing with #28 and on the 1st PP unit the whole time...

if you haven't noticed his regression in the last couple of years, you're not paying attention

[i'm not saying he is or deserves to be a "whipping boy," just pointing out his dismal play over the past 2 seasons]
Expect he wasn't dismal this year...

And I wasn't aware the Flyers played 29 playoff games the past two years.

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05-14-2014, 01:47 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
Hartnell=
4 goals in his last 29 playoff games
28 goals in his last 110 regular season games
playing with #28 and on the 1st PP unit the whole time...

if you haven't noticed his regression in the last couple of years, you're not paying attention
He had a good playoff in 2011-2012 8 points (3G & 5A) in 11 games which was apart of that 29 games you mentioned.

He had a bad year last year but was banged up in a shortened year, his assist numbers were down but his goal total when you pro rate it for an 82 game season it was 21 which is around his career average as a Flyer.

His numbers this year are in line with his career average as a Flyer so I don't know how much he regressed. The only difference is he's in the spotlight more because he's on the first line opposed to a secondary scoring role where he spent the majority of his career here on.

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05-14-2014, 01:50 PM
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Curufinwe
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I just wish he would correct his most easily correctable flaw - the dumb penalties.

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05-14-2014, 01:52 PM
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JDinkalage Morgoone
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I just wish he would correct his most easily correctable flaw - the dumb penalties.
Agreed. As we all said, he's not above criticism, but he sure as hell doesn't warrant the crucifixion he regularly receives around here.

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05-14-2014, 02:10 PM
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MickeyMelchiondo
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
His numbers this year are in line with his career average as a Flyer so I don't know how much he regressed. The only difference is he's in the spotlight more because he's on the first line opposed to a secondary scoring role where he spent the majority of his career here on.
but he's playing with arguably the best 2 playmakers in his career in #28 & #93-most players would have much better seasons, but he didn't...all kinda comes back to finding a better scorer to play with those 2, if they stay together.

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And I wasn't aware the Flyers played 29 playoff games the past two years.
nobody said they did, guy

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05-14-2014, 02:20 PM
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jabba2
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As long as Hartnell continues to play with the 1st line, he'll be compared to other teams top line players and Girouz/Vorecek. He is not a top line player though. I think part of the reason is to have protection for Giroux. And without PP minutes, which Hartnell gets...he is likely no more than a 10-15 goal even strength scorer.

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05-14-2014, 02:21 PM
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JDinkalage Morgoone
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
As long as Hartnell continues to play with the 1st line, he'll be compared to other teams top line players and Girouz/Vorecek. He is not a top line player though. I think part of the reason is to have protection for Giroux. And without PP minutes, which Hartnell gets...he is likely no more than a 10-15 goal even strength scorer.
Ok. Without PP minutes Simmonds gets, he's likely a 10-15 goal scorer.

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05-14-2014, 02:23 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
but he's playing with arguably the best 2 playmakers in his career in #28 & #93-most players would have much better seasons, but he didn't...all kinda comes back to finding a better scorer to play with those 2, if they stay together.
He's not a first line player & never was outside of a year or two nobody is arguing that. He had trouble keeping up with Giroux & Voracek this year at times but most players in the league would have the same problem because the two are very talented players. He's put in a role he's not exactly suited for because our lack of depth at the LW spot but all things considered he had a solid season & it would be appreciated more if he wasn't on the first line.

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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
nobody said they did, guy
No but you used a sample based off the last three post seasons but then used a sample for the regular season with the last two previous seasons because if you stretched it back to three seasons like you did with the other sample it wouldn't fit your argument very well seeing as Hartnell scored 37 goals that year.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 05-14-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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05-14-2014, 02:24 PM
  #24
Sniped
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I just wish he would correct his most easily correctable flaw - the dumb penalties.
He doesn't practice what he preaches, which is the most frustrating part.

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05-14-2014, 02:25 PM
  #25
jabba2
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Originally Posted by JDinkalage Morgoone View Post
Ok. Without PP minutes Simmonds gets, he's likely a 10-15 goal scorer.
If Simmonds was on the top line with Giroux/Voracek he would be scoring more Goals. I think Hartnell, Simmonds play well together with Schenn, but for some reason they keep moving Hartnell up to Girouxs line, where he doesn't seem to fit, except when he wants to hit someone for bothering Giroux.

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