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2014 NHL Draft - Philadelphia - Rounds 2-7 9:00 AM NHLN

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Old
03-18-2014, 08:29 PM
  #101
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
You pointed them out, but they still make no sense. I'm giving you the benefit of hindsight, and you're still arguing that you'd take the inferior NHL player.
Apparently I have to explicitly spell it out for you. Here's a go at it: If the Doug MacLean-controlled Columbus Blue Jackets had drafted Kessel, it is extremely probable that he would not have been the superior NHL player.

You seem to be presuming that "development" is some kind of buzzword that explains why some players don't immediately jump into the NHL. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

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Using that logic - All picks are equal 1st through 7th round - since you never actually know what the player will do in a given system/injuries/etc.

Heck, why bother with 1st rounders. Poile shold just trade our 1st and 2nd rounders for 7th's. Because you never know, right?
Ahem. In that very post:
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
We've seen it happen, hon. Many, many times. If you're talking about the broad sense, such as "second rounder instead of fourth rounder", then you have a point. But this is a discussion of tanking to improve by one or two ranks, whereupon the difference is marginal at best and certainly not worth the cost.
I hate the usual cliche fallback reply citing "reading comprehension" (particularly in its standard usage of "I have my own twist on reality, so read what I wrote with all of my assumptions instead of yours, kthx"), but really, I'm not sure how else to reply to this.

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I know what the Blue Jackets tried didn't work. I know what the Preds are trying isn't working. What's the difference - other than a few playoff flameouts and a couple more regular season points?


If you really, truly, honestly believe there's no difference, then... well, I can't respond, because the only possible valid response would get me infracted for name-calling flaming. That's just incredible. It's like the hockey fan version of #DanEllisProblems.

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I'm not advocating any particular methods for improvement.
...other than firing people due to having an absurd standard for what constitutes "success"...

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So, let me get this straight - players have developed and failed to develop on bad teams. Players have developed and failed on good teams. And players have developed and failed on mediocre teams.
The point being that your suggestion that "being on a crappy team doesn't matter" is utterly meaningless and valueless as a counterpoint. You might as well say that hockey players breathe air.

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We still have to pick the right guys - which is where the Blue Jackets failed (and teams like the Hawks/Pens succeeded).
See prior statements re: development being important as well.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
There's no moving target here. Higher is better. Even if it's one slot.

Seth Jones looks like he's going to be a franchise defenseman for a long time. Elias Lindholm looks like a solid #2 playmaking center.

That's the potential difference in 1 slot.
LOL.

1) I love how Elias Lindholm's future destiny is already written less than a year after he's drafted,
2) I seem to recall Jones being described as having dropped to #4 rather than expected to be there to be picked,
3) Do you need me to bring up can't-miss clearly-better-than-the-rest stars like Patrik Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Rick DiPietro, Alex Svitov, Nikolay Zherdev, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gilbert Brule, Erik Johnson, and Jordan Staal, or can you figure that one out on your own?

Oh, wait, wait. I think I already know how you're going to reply to #3: "But they were the wrong guys, you see." To which I say, if such "wrong guys" are getting selected with such frequency... why did you so desperately need a draft pick one rank higher again?

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Old
03-18-2014, 09:50 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Apparently I have to explicitly spell it out for you. Here's a go at it: If the Doug MacLean-controlled Columbus Blue Jackets had drafted Kessel, it is extremely probable that he would not have been the superior NHL player.

You seem to be presuming that "development" is some kind of buzzword that explains why some players don't immediately jump into the NHL. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.
So, you're saying that the fact that the Blue Jackets stink at developing players invalidates the draft process?

I simply don't understand why you're not understanding this:

Draft higher is more likely to land you a better player. Whether it's one slot or ten. It's not guaranteed - but the opportunity is there.

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Ahem. In that very post:

I hate the usual cliche fallback reply citing "reading comprehension" (particularly in its standard usage of "I have my own twist on reality, so read what I wrote with all of my assumptions instead of yours, kthx"), but really, I'm not sure how else to reply to this.
I'll ignore this.

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

If you really, truly, honestly believe there's no difference, then... well, I can't respond, because the only possible valid response would get me infracted for name-calling flaming. That's just incredible. It's like the hockey fan version of #DanEllisProblems.
Again, this is a league where more than half make the playoffs. There are seasons when over 30% of the league scores 100 points.

Regular season success is virtually meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

...other than firing people due to having an absurd standard for what constitutes "success"...
It's absurd to hope for a little playoff success every 15 years? Really?

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

The point being that your suggestion that "being on a crappy team doesn't matter" is utterly meaningless and valueless as a counterpoint. You might as well say that hockey players breathe air.
It's actually the best point in this entire discussion.

Players have developed on teams that have run the gamut from suckage to cup winners.

So the premise that losing a game or two in a meaningless lost season is going to somehow stunt their growth or ruin them for life is just not true.

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

LOL.

1) I love how Elias Lindholm's future destiny is already written less than a year after he's drafted,
2) I seem to recall Jones being described as having dropped to #4 rather than expected to be there to be picked,
3) Do you need me to bring up can't-miss clearly-better-than-the-rest stars like Patrik Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Rick DiPietro, Alex Svitov, Nikolay Zherdev, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gilbert Brule, Erik Johnson, and Jordan Staal, or can you figure that one out on your own?

Oh, wait, wait. I think I already know how you're going to reply to #3: "But they were the wrong guys, you see." To which I say, if such "wrong guys" are getting selected with such frequency... why did you so desperately need a draft pick one rank higher again?

1. I don't think you'd find very many people anywhere that would pick Jones over Lindholm. Why don't you go to the trade board and test your hypothesis?

So, I feel pretty good being thankful that we were in a position to get a player like Jones and didn't have Lindholm chosen for us by process of elimination.

2. Yes, and thankfully we drafted 4th in a draft that had what most people believe were 4 elite prospects.

3. Again - just because there have been busts doesn't mean that drafting higher isn't going to net you more talent.

What your claiming with this last statement is akin to "Well, since Patrik Stefan didn't do squat in the NHL, I don't see what good picking 1st overall will do".






Ultimately - what do the Preds gain by finishing with, say, 86 points instead of 81 points? Nothing.

There is nothing to be gained.

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Old
03-18-2014, 10:30 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
So, you're saying that the fact that the Blue Jackets stink at developing players invalidates the draft process?
No, I'm saying that development counts. Pretending that one slot worth of draft position is worth more than actually telling your kids to keep competing and keep fighting throughout the season is asinine.

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Again, this is a league where more than half make the playoffs. There are seasons when over 30% of the league scores 100 points.

Regular season success is virtually meaningless.
Tell that to the folks who don't have it.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
It's absurd to hope for a little playoff success every 15 years? Really?
You have every possible basic standard of sustained effectiveness that any team could ask for, plus a few extra successes besides, and you're complaining because you didn't get yet another bonus dropped into your lap.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
It's actually the best point in this entire discussion.

Players have developed on teams that have run the gamut from suckage to cup winners.

So the premise that losing a game or two in a meaningless lost season is going to somehow stunt their growth or ruin them for life is just not true.
It's not whether or not the game is won or lost. It's how it happens.

If you go to extra lengths to assure losing, that sends a message, and not a good one. It changes people's thinking from "we're not quite good enough yet, we need to do better" to "they've given up on us." At that point, it doesn't matter what point total you're talking about - the damage is done. Folks are demotivated, and that demotivation can stay with a person - especially when they're young and still learning the game.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
1. I don't think you'd find very many people anywhere that would pick Jones over Lindholm. Why don't you go to the trade board and test your hypothesis?

So, I feel pretty good being thankful that we were in a position to get a player like Jones and didn't have Lindholm chosen for us by process of elimination.
Why Lindholm? There's other players. Such as...

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
2. Yes, and thankfully we drafted 4th in a draft that had what most people believe were 4 elite prospects.
Nichushkin. Considered potentially better than Barkov, but dropped due to having a KHL contract and the "Russian factor".

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
3. Again - just because there have been busts doesn't mean that drafting higher isn't going to net you more talent.
True, but it also shows that drafting higher is not a cure-all, and not something that one should strive for at all costs - especially if it means demotivating and demoralizing your players.

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Ultimately - what do the Preds gain by finishing with, say, 86 points instead of 81 points? Nothing.

There is nothing to be gained.
There is, however, plenty to be lost.

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Old
03-19-2014, 08:23 AM
  #104
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Latest on the draft still has us picking at #6 (disregarding the GP), though a couple teams picking 7 and 8 are within a point. Detroit is right in the middle of a huge battle for the east's wildcard spots. Anyone know when they plan on getting healthy?

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03-19-2014, 11:12 AM
  #105
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I'd be happy if we get someone like Nikolaj Ehlers, just please no dman in the first round!

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03-19-2014, 11:21 AM
  #106
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I'd be happy if we get someone like Nikolaj Ehlers, just please no dman in the first round!
I think that if they want to truly "change the look" of the forwards, from this point on, Jake Virtanen is the obvious choice. Maybe the best pure goal scorer in the draft, but like Anthony Mantha last year, is missing some other elements from his game...namely defense. Will likely be there at 6-8 where Nashville picks.

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03-19-2014, 11:23 AM
  #107
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I'd be happy if we get someone like Nikolaj Ehlers, just please no dman in the first round!
No, this is an even year draft, Poile will draft a forward. Odd years defense, even years forward.

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03-19-2014, 09:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I think that if they want to truly "change the look" of the forwards, from this point on, Jake Virtanen is the obvious choice. Maybe the best pure goal scorer in the draft, but like Anthony Mantha last year, is missing some other elements from his game...namely defense. Will likely be there at 6-8 where Nashville picks.
as I have said before

Virtanen is 100% not possible Trotz will never let a player that can not play defense on this team. It will be a "two way" forward which means defensive only forward. Honestly this coaching staff will not develop offensive talent.

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03-19-2014, 09:32 PM
  #109
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as I have said before

Virtanen is 100% not possible Trotz will never let a player that can not play defense on this team. It will be a "two way" forward which means defensive only forward. Honestly this coaching staff will not develop offensive talent.

I think it is not that they won't develop talent, but they are too scared to risk letting the offense go all in, they'd rather play it safe.

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03-20-2014, 08:44 AM
  #110
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as I have said before

Virtanen is 100% not possible Trotz will never let a player that can not play defense on this team. It will be a "two way" forward which means defensive only forward. Honestly this coaching staff will not develop offensive talent.
I think you have too much faith that a)Trotz will have a say and b)that he'll even be here by then. I don't believe either to be the case.

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03-20-2014, 10:52 AM
  #111
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I think you have too much faith that a)Trotz will have a say and b)that he'll even be here by then. I don't believe either to be the case.
You really think they'll get rid of Trotz at the end of the season? Sometimes I feel like they will, thanks to some of the recent statements from Poile, (i.e. We need to improve offense, Preds system might be too restrictive, etc.) and some of his acquisitions: Forsberg, MDZ.

But at the end of the day, If I had to bet on it, I think he'll still be the coach next year.

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03-20-2014, 11:07 AM
  #112
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Updated Want List (guys we can realistically get)

1. Ehlers
2. Draisatl
3.Dal Colle
4. Ritchie
5.Perlini

Do not want Virtanen… projects to be a poor mans Grabner.

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03-20-2014, 12:19 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
Updated Want List (guys we can realistically get)

1. Ehlers
2. Draisatl
3.Dal Colle
4. Ritchie
5.Perlini

Do not want Virtanen… projects to be a poor mans Grabner.
Love this order of players but I would put Nylander on that list as well. Porbably ahead of Ritchie on that list. Ehlers is what we need and who I really hope we draft.

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03-20-2014, 12:50 PM
  #114
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I would replace Nylander with Perlini on that list and outside of Dal Colle being one tier ahead the order wouldn't matter. I just want to see us take a highly skilled, high upside forward for once.

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03-20-2014, 12:50 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
Updated Want List (guys we can realistically get)

1. Ehlers
2. Draisatl
3.Dal Colle
4. Ritchie
5.Perlini

Do not want Virtanen… projects to be a poor mans Grabner.
Gota ask why you have dal colle below ehlers

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Old
03-21-2014, 12:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
Updated Want List (guys we can realistically get)

1. Ehlers
2. Draisatl
3.Dal Colle
4. Ritchie
5.Perlini

Do not want Virtanen… projects to be a poor mans Grabner.
You've either never seen Grabner play, never seen Virtanen play, or never seen either of them play.

Because Virtanen and Grabner are...not alike at all.

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03-21-2014, 02:07 PM
  #117
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Only want one of: Dal Colle, Draisaitl, or Ehlers.

One of them will be there if pick in top 6. Please nashville don't go on a winning streak to not make the playoffs, we need this

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03-21-2014, 02:30 PM
  #118
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Last year I wanted Lindholm which looks like would have been a good pick. Am I surprised his numbers are better than Barkov's not in the least. Both are going to be good players but there was just too much hype for Barkov, and while either could have helped the Preds they can still both be a flop.

Now to this year my pick is Nylander no way we get to top three picks where the real difference makers will be selected so we need to take a chance here. He is a center that can also play LW and we all know he would have to for a while before moving to center. He will take a few years to develop but if Hook and FF work out they could all well peak t the same time. Sure were talking about 4 to 5 years down the line.

"William exudes confidence when he plays. Exceptional poise with the puck and is always looking to make threatening plays in the offensive zone. Excellent skater who is very difficult to check because of his agility and because he is always changing pace. Can make pinpoint passes in traffic and if you are his line mate, best be ready, as he will provide opportunities. Top line type player.

- Bob McKenzie, TSN"


It is going to be painful the next few years however with Scission. Mosier FF Hook and Nylander that's most of the top two lines. All will be peaking at the time the blue line hits its stride as well.

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03-21-2014, 02:39 PM
  #119
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Gota ask why you have dal colle below ehlers
For me it would only take one word to explain why...Skating.

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03-21-2014, 03:53 PM
  #120
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Last year I wanted Lindholm which looks like would have been a good pick. Am I surprised his numbers are better than Barkov's not in the least. Both are going to be good players but there was just too much hype for Barkov, and while either could have helped the Preds they can still both be a flop.

Now to this year my pick is Nylander no way we get to top three picks where the real difference makers will be selected so we need to take a chance here. He is a center that can also play LW and we all know he would have to for a while before moving to center. He will take a few years to develop but if Hook and FF work out they could all well peak t the same time. Sure were talking about 4 to 5 years down the line.

"William exudes confidence when he plays. Exceptional poise with the puck and is always looking to make threatening plays in the offensive zone. Excellent skater who is very difficult to check because of his agility and because he is always changing pace. Can make pinpoint passes in traffic and if you are his line mate, best be ready, as he will provide opportunities. Top line type player.

- Bob McKenzie, TSN"


It is going to be painful the next few years however with Scission. Mosier FF Hook and Nylander that's most of the top two lines. All will be peaking at the time the blue line hits its stride as well.
Look at the games played...Barkov's been hurt, otherwise he would have blown away Lindholm. If you want to make a case for anyone, it would have been Monahan, who has hit 20 goals on a mediocre teams.

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03-21-2014, 04:43 PM
  #121
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Look at the games played...Barkov's been hurt, otherwise he would have blown away Lindholm. If you want to make a case for anyone, it would have been Monahan, who has hit 20 goals on a mediocre teams.
Barkov has played 54 NHL games has 8 goals 16 asst for 24 .14 GPG and .44 PPG
Lindholm has played 45 games has 6 goals 10 Asst for 16 .13 GPG and .35 PPG


Injury or not that's not alot of difference with all the Hype Barkov got moving to 2nd in the draft....... He was expected to do a lot more. Monahan has had a decent rookie season considering the slop he has played with. on the 3rd line. He may well turn out to be the best of the three.

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03-21-2014, 07:22 PM
  #122
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Only want one of: Dal Colle, Draisaitl, or Ehlers.

One of them will be there if pick in top 6. Please nashville don't go on a winning streak to not make the playoffs, we need this
Nylander and Ritchie are also both really interesting prospects. Nylander may be a tad undersized but he has all the elite offensive skill you can want. Playmaker, good puck mover, good shot, quick. Ritchie on the other hand is already massive 6'2 or 6'3, 230ish pounds I believe, hits hard, knows how to use his body, is speedy, has an insanely quick release and nack for finding the back of the net.

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03-21-2014, 08:39 PM
  #123
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Nylander and Ritchie are also both really interesting prospects. Nylander may be a tad undersized but he has all the elite offensive skill you can want. Playmaker, good puck mover, good shot, quick. Ritchie on the other hand is already massive 6'2 or 6'3, 230ish pounds I believe, hits hard, knows how to use his body, is speedy, has an insanely quick release and nack for finding the back of the net.
So Ritchie is Like Lucic?

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03-21-2014, 08:45 PM
  #124
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You've either never seen Grabner play, never seen Virtanen play, or never seen either of them play.

Because Virtanen and Grabner are...not alike at all.
Virtanen is more like Skinner from what I heard

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03-21-2014, 10:21 PM
  #125
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So Ritchie is Like Lucic?
That's the comparison some people are making. I'm mostly just passing on information I read so it's not like I get to watch these guys directly, but some would say he compares somewhat to lucic.

Here's a nice lengthy highlight video to compare with

http://youtu.be/RztPZLG34D0

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