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Dear Michel Therrien,

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Old
04-06-2014, 01:29 PM
  #276
bergyletigre
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Dear Michel Therrien,

Thanks for making the habs win!

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04-06-2014, 02:08 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergyletigre View Post
Dear Michel Therrien,

Thanks for making the habs win!

Dear Carey Price,

Thank you for saving my job for me.. I'm forever in your debt.

Your friend, Michel Therrien


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04-06-2014, 04:05 PM
  #278
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
The theory from micro stats people is that shots generated = offense. Ability to generate shots dictate the ability to generate goals and show how much you have the puck. I think there are several flaws with that theory.
Well yes, if all you take is one game, that theory can be thrown out. Over 80 games? No.
Take Eller, he got 4-5G one game. Going by that sample, he's an elite scorer. But we all know that's not the case.
So if your team really has a strong offense, it will generate a lot of shots over an 80 game period. Exceptions always happen, but generally speaking, I'm not sure how anybody can dispute this.
Also, if goals scored is what you want to base yourself on, then 5 on 5 is what you need to look at for obvious reasons, and we're just not that good there. The good news though is that we went from 29th at 5 on 5 scoring to 21st over the span of 10ish games. Hopefully we can keep it up.
However, the most important stat I'd argue is 5 on 5 ratio, and we're average there. The bad news though is that out of the 16 PO teams today, only the Flyers have a worse one.

In any event, the POs are a different beast. All the regular season stats get thrown out and things can be completely different. So it's all pretty irrelevant.
That being said, I don't think we've played well most of the year. Our defensive coverage is borderline atrocious out there. Our players all seem confused in our zone when defending at ES, there's still some guys that don't know who to cover or where to position themselves when opponents rush us. It's pretty bad. We regularly got outchanced and outshot, have issues scoring at ES, need Price to make highlight saves every night and our PK to be atop the NHL.
We're not a bad team by any means, but I think we could be a much better structured team and our ES game should be way better.

Last year, we were playing strong, this year not so much. Was a fan of how the kids were treated last year, this year not so much.
I've heard others claim that people can't praise Therrien because they just don't like him. Well, that's not true. I mean, yes he was never my pick and I still don't like him, but I have no issues giving him props for last season and it's the same for most posters. Why would people who have no issues giving out props to Therrien last year would suddenly have some this year despite being 3rd? Maybe there's valid reasons after all.

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04-06-2014, 04:52 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I'm not saying our coach is great, I'm not the biggest fan of Therrien but some of you guys are incapable of giving him any credit at all for anything. He clearly has some qualities. He clearly gets the team to show up and give effort which is more important than anything. The team shows passion and works hard, never gives up. They stick up for each other. There has been a culture change and I just loved seeing the guys stand up for each others in the Ottawa game.
Un%%%ingbelieveable. Someone who has an objective viewpoint on Therrien.

I'd be very careful if I were you. You're an endangered specie.

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04-06-2014, 04:53 PM
  #280
bergyletigre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Dear Carey Price,

Thank you for saving my job for me.. I'm forever in your debt.

Your friend, Michel Therrien

Well, how about...

Dear Stephane Waite,

Thank you for making Carey not suck anymore

?

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04-06-2014, 05:12 PM
  #281
Des Louise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergyletigre View Post
Well, how about...

Dear Stephane Waite,

Thank you for making Carey not suck anymore

?
Dear MB,

Thank you for stealing Stephane Waite.

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Old
04-06-2014, 05:20 PM
  #282
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I'm not saying our coach is great, I'm not the biggest fan of Therrien but some of you guys are incapable of giving him any credit at all for anything. He clearly has some qualities. He clearly gets the team to show up and give effort which is more important than anything. The team shows passion and works hard, never gives up. They stick up for each other. There has been a culture change and I just loved seeing the guys stand up for each others in the Ottawa game.
I would say that's one of the basic requirements of the job, though. I would be disappointed if my team didn't give an effort or stick up for eachother.

Granted, we have had some coaching failures in the past where that stuff didn't happen. And those coaches got replaced. But I think it's fair to aspire to a standard which includes success in those areas _plus_ requires that the coach doesn't have some of the same fundamental shortcomings that Therrien has.

Anyway, as long as his legacy is one of getting us a couple sucessful seasons and some playoff experience, and it doesn't include effecting regressions that turn out to be lasting plateaus in players which ultimately hurts us long-tern, then that's all ok. I think it's the fear of the latter that makes most of us most heavily inclined to jump onto the #FireTherrien bandwagon (or stay on it as the months pass, as the case may be).

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04-06-2014, 05:25 PM
  #283
sheed36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergyletigre View Post
Well, how about...

Dear Stephane Waite,

Thank you for making Carey not suck anymore

?
So you're saying Price sucked before Waite arrived?

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04-06-2014, 05:34 PM
  #284
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well yes, if all you take is one game, that theory can be thrown out. Over 80 games? No.
Take Eller, he got 4-5G one game. Going by that sample, he's an elite scorer. But we all know that's not the case.
So if your team really has a strong offense, it will generate a lot of shots over an 80 game period. Exceptions always happen, but generally speaking, I'm not sure how anybody can dispute this.
Also, if goals scored is what you want to base yourself on, then 5 on 5 is what you need to look at for obvious reasons, and we're just not that good there. The good news though is that we went from 29th at 5 on 5 scoring to 21st over the span of 10ish games. Hopefully we can keep it up.
However, the most important stat I'd argue is 5 on 5 ratio, and we're average there. The bad news though is that out of the 16 PO teams today, only the Flyers have a worse one.
I would say that any stats from before Vanek/Weaver joined are not the most relevant.

This team was missing one impact forward and a guy like Weaver pretty bad.

Quote:
In any event, the POs are a different beast. All the regular season stats get thrown out and things can be completely different. So it's all pretty irrelevant.
This is true.

But, another thing is that I think the habs have preserved themselves for the playoffs this season. They didn't need to go all out every game like they did in the shortened season last year. This will hopefully make us go into these playoffs healthier and with more gas left in the tank to push it.

Quote:
That being said, I don't think we've played well most of the year. Our defensive coverage is borderline atrocious out there. Our players all seem confused in our zone when defending at ES, there's still some guys that don't know who to cover or where to position themselves when opponents rush us. It's pretty bad. We regularly got outchanced and outshot, have issues scoring at ES, need Price to make highlight saves every night and our PK to be atop the NHL.
We're not a bad team by any means, but I think we could be a much better structured team and our ES game should be way better.

Last year, we were playing strong, this year not so much. Was a fan of how the kids were treated last year, this year not so much.
I've heard others claim that people can't praise Therrien because they just don't like him. Well, that's not true. I mean, yes he was never my pick and I still don't like him, but I have no issues giving him props for last season and it's the same for most posters. Why would people who have no issues giving out props to Therrien last year would suddenly have some this year despite being 3rd? Maybe there's valid reasons after all.
I think last season we hid some of our defensive zone coverage deficiencies with our superior puck moving ability from the backend as well as our swarm system. It kept the puck in the other team's zone most of the time and helped us hide some of our weaknesses.

I think they recognized that the previous system was high maintenance in terms of energy and difficult to sustain over an 82 games schedule + playoffs. I think they tried to address that this season without getting exactly the results they wanted. But at the same time, I don't find that we have those total defensive breakdowns where absolutely nothing is going right and we're getting destroyed on the scoresheet like what happened in some games last year. Defensively, we can be iffy at times but I still think Price is protected a bit more from prime scoring chances. Last year we wouldn't give up too many shots but that's because the play was at the other end most of the time. But when we gave up chances they were good ones. And when things didn't work out we would get destroyed. Thing is, no teams can sustain that level of balls to the walls pressure for 82 games + playoffs. At least not a team with as many small forwards as we have. Things had to change a little bit.

I can't wait to see how the team will come out in the playoffs. I'm really curious to see if my theory is right or if our entire coaching stuff just sucks.

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04-06-2014, 05:38 PM
  #285
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
So you're saying Price sucked before Waite arrived?
So you're saying Price has been playing at this level all his career and Waite didn't have a positive effect ?

EDIT: I don't know how much is to be attributed to Waite but I know he's playing a lot better this season than the previous 2 seasons. He was also pretty damn awesome in 2010-11.

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04-06-2014, 05:51 PM
  #286
Tinordi Ruxpin
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I just don't know where to stand on Therrien. I just don't really like the guy but it is very tough to argue his results. This is now back to back successful regular seasons under his watch.

I can't say for sure that we are THAT talented to overcome his mediocre coaching abilities.

I definitely credit MB for doing exactly what he said he was going to do and that was improving our depth. Our regular 4th line is OUT (Moen, Prust, Weise) yet we continue to succeed while out current 4th line continues to produce. Bringing in Weaver really is paying dividends. I didn't like the move in the beginning but it didn't take long to come around on it. Having the guts to go after Vanek is also paying off.

Offensively, our team is very balanced and that should help us come the playoffs. I don't know if I like the TB matchup as we have lost 3 games to them this year. I am very nervous regarding which defencemen Therrien is going with in the playoffs. I don't know if I can stomach seeing both Murray and Bouillon out there.

But the biggest question remains, does Therrien make our players look good or are our players making Therrien look good? If the results are there, maybe it doesn't matter. However, it will matter t he minute we are out of the playoffs.

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04-06-2014, 06:37 PM
  #287
Maxpac
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Anybody that wants Therrien fired at this point deserves a punch in the throat, period. if feels so good to have players accountable, to have 12 forwards and 6 defensmens that work their tales off. I don't give a crap if we don't play a puck possession system ala Red Wings, we don't have that many good puck carriers anyways, and what we're doing WORKS, and yes Price is a big part of it, but all great teams have great goalies, that's just how life works. We all want more ice-time for our prospects, but if Bergevin keeps stacking up on depth, a coach has to keep all players happy, that's how it goes.

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04-06-2014, 08:15 PM
  #288
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I would say that any stats from before Vanek/Weaver joined are not the most relevant.

This team was missing one impact forward and a guy like Weaver pretty bad.
Well I don't think that's fair. Every team can be better when you add better players to the roster.
The stats have improved a bit since they joined our team, but we're still a one line team, we still play very poorly defensively and our transition game is quite bad.
I will give props to a coach when we can clearly see progress and effective structure.
I'm not seeing either of those things this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
This is true.

But, another thing is that I think the habs have preserved themselves for the playoffs this season. They didn't need to go all out every game like they did in the shortened season last year. This will hopefully make us go into these playoffs healthier and with more gas left in the tank to push it.
I don't think they were tired last year. I don't know where this excuse originated from. Even during our bad 5 game stretch at the end of the year, we still dominated the opposition. If you don't remember, I suggest maybe re-watching those games if possible for you, Price was not able to stop a beach ball. There were defensive breakdowns for sure, but we still played well.
Then in the POs, losing Eller was key. The EGG line was our little ''secret'' weapon. Ottawa crushed that and it had nothing to do with fatigue. Despite this all, many feel Anderson still had to stand of his head for 3 of Ottawa's wins.
So, I can't say I agree that we got tired. If they did get tired, it's likely more about the condensed schedule than the system. Playing a dump and chase style with very little defensive structure isn't an ''energy saver'' either btw.

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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I think last season we hid some of our defensive zone coverage deficiencies with our superior puck moving ability from the backend as well as our swarm system. It kept the puck in the other team's zone most of the time and helped us hide some of our weaknesses.

I think they recognized that the previous system was high maintenance in terms of energy and difficult to sustain over an 82 games schedule + playoffs. I think they tried to address that this season without getting exactly the results they wanted. But at the same time, I don't find that we have those total defensive breakdowns where absolutely nothing is going right and we're getting destroyed on the scoresheet like what happened in some games last year. Defensively, we can be iffy at times but I still think Price is protected a bit more from prime scoring chances. Last year we wouldn't give up too many shots but that's because the play was at the other end most of the time. But when we gave up chances they were good ones. And when things didn't work out we would get destroyed. Thing is, no teams can sustain that level of balls to the walls pressure for 82 games + playoffs. At least not a team with as many small forwards as we have. Things had to change a little bit.

I can't wait to see how the team will come out in the playoffs. I'm really curious to see if my theory is right or if our entire coaching stuff just sucks.
I disagree. We did have our breakdowns last year, but I will consider any system that makes you spend way more time in the offensive zone a lot more effective.
As for what system is more sustainable, any system that has you being outchanced and outshot will surely catch up to you. We were getting owned a couple years ago by Washington and Pittsburgh, but that caught up to us vs Philly. We are not going to win a PO series vs Boston or heck even TB if we play the way we did vs them.

Anyways, 3 games left, let's hope we can get into the POs healthy, that is surely a big bonus.

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04-06-2014, 08:30 PM
  #289
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Anybody that wants Therrien fired at this point deserves a punch in the throat, period. if feels so good to have players accountable, to have 12 forwards and 6 defensmens that work their tales off. I don't give a crap if we don't play a puck possession system ala Red Wings, we don't have that many good puck carriers anyways, and what we're doing WORKS, and yes Price is a big part of it, but all great teams have great goalies, that's just how life works. We all want more ice-time for our prospects, but if Bergevin keeps stacking up on depth, a coach has to keep all players happy, that's how it goes.
Yes, he shouldn't be fired. But you'd have to be completely lost to watch the team and be happy with what you see. He doesn't hold all players accountable. He picks and chooses who is accountable. You won't care about puck possession until it becomes a serious problem in the playoffs. Also, Price is not just part of why the team is where it is. He's really a massive part why and that shouldn't happen. Last night's game was terrible, but Price made some big saves and got some luck with the posts. This luck is going to run out. Just like when the Leafs were winning games after being severely outshot and outplayed.

As far as making everyone happy. You're right. A coach can't make everyone happy. But he should know who is responsible for why the team is winning and make sure they're happy. That means Price, Subban, and a few other players. But he'd rather make Bouillion happy.

What does Therrien do that makes him a good coach. I honestly do not see it.

Is he tactical? No.
Is he a brilliant mind? No.
Does he maximize his players potential? No.
Does he put his players in positions that make them effective? No.
Does he develop players? No.
Does he make players accountable? Depends which player.
Does he outcoach other coaches? No.

He doesn't deserve to be fired, but he sure as hell isn't a good coach. He's the type of coach where the minute the team slips for an extended period of time, you fire him. Good coaches will get the benefit of the doubt. Not him.


Last edited by hockeyfan2k11: 04-06-2014 at 08:36 PM.
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04-06-2014, 08:34 PM
  #290
habs03
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Was listen to TSN radio a few days ago, when they have Bergevin on. When asked about if there was beef between Subban and Therrien, he seemed really suprised by the question, as if the "hate for eachother" is just something the media tries to make a big deal out more than anything. And said coaches and players don't have to be best friends and it wasn't like he was defensivly about the thing, so that was somewhat nice to hear.

Also during that show, they said that Therrien since the 04-05 lockout, is the 6th winnest coach, I was like wtf, pretty crazy.

TBH I don't like how Therrien has handle somethings, or atleast the way it looks from the outside, ex Subban, and Briere, but looking at some of the team stats, its either we have great team or he isn't as bad as some make him seem.

Last year we were a top 10 5 on 5 team in terms of GF/GA ratio, top 10 in PP, top 10 in SH/ SA. Only thing that was bad was the pk unit which was ranked around 25th.

This year 5 on 5 isn't great, but it isn't bad, its around 16th I believe, btw I am looking at 5 on 5 GF/GA ratio, the pp has been up and down, but still decent. The pk unit has been much improved.

Like many I never thought MT was an X's and O's guy but it doesn't seem all that bad. Specially when you look at the teams record after scoring 1st, or leading after 2. I saw them on RDS or CBC just the other night, it was pretty crazy, something like 35-0-3 after leadeing after 2.

I have to say, its going to be pretty funny this summer around here when Bergevin gives MT a contract ext.

100% its going to happen, next year is MT last year, you never see a GM let a coach go into a season with just 1 year left on his contract, specially teams with money.

What's even funnier is that MT might be fired before the contract ext even kicks in, we seen it before, Ron Wilson fired just months after getting a contract ext, Noel with the Jets was giving an extra year in the summer since he was going into his last year on the deal and he was fired before it kicked in.

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04-06-2014, 08:52 PM
  #291
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
The theory from micro stats people is that shots generated = offense. Ability to generate shots dictate the ability to generate goals and show how much you have the puck. I think there are several flaws with that theory.
The proof is there. Cup winners have those stats behind them. I used to doubt, but I'm now convinced. When you see the correlation that exists between those possession numbers and contending teams and poor numbers and bad ones... it carries some weight.

Even if you disregard those numbers though... you've watched the team this year. We haven't played well. You have to know this.

And even if you disagree there... forget the microstats, this team doesn't score and has a goal differential that's around even. That's not good man and its nowhere near where you'd expect a team with our record to be.
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I'm not saying it's brilliant coaching I'm saying you're showing bias by saying the offense has cratered when it clearly has not. That's all I'm saying.
It HAS cratered. It was top five at the start of the year and top ten last season with an almost identical roster. Once MT changed things up our offense TANKED. Since that system changed the only team with worse five on five has been Buffalo. And our once lethal PP which was first in the league THIS year has tanked all the way to 17th.

Of course its cratered. Two games and with ridiculous shooting percentage doesn't change this. Only thing that changed is us adding Vanek. And MT had zero to do with that too.
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Alright, the team is 8th overall behind all of the powerhouse : blues, hawks, ducks, bruins, sharks, avs, pens.

None of the teams ahead of them have worse rosters, except maybe the avs but they have such an insane offense much better than ours.

I think it's silly to say that Therrien deserves no credit. I'm not in the dressing room and I don't know everything that he does to make the team perform. But it's been 2 years where the habs are in the top 10 overall. He's getting results.
Our goalies are getting results.
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You can't just plug your ears and go lalalala.
My criticisms are very specific. And again I ask you a simple question - WHAT DOES HE DESERVE CREDIT FOR? Be specific. What do you like about our team's PLAY this year? 'Cause the only thing I see working is the goaltending. You could argue that the Penalty Killing is great but even there... how much of that is the goalie?
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So you're saying Price has been playing at this level all his career and Waite didn't have a positive effect ?

EDIT: I don't know how much is to be attributed to Waite but I know he's playing a lot better this season than the previous 2 seasons. He was also pretty damn awesome in 2010-11.
Price has been great for the last four years.

Even if you want to disregard this though and say he's only been great this season and give ALL the credit to Waite... it still has zero to do with MT.

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04-06-2014, 09:03 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Was listen to TSN radio a few days ago, when they have Bergevin on. When asked about if there was beef between Subban and Therrien, he seemed really suprised by the question, as if the "hate for eachother" is just something the media tries to make a big deal out more than anything. And said coaches and players don't have to be best friends and it wasn't like he was defensivly about the thing, so that was somewhat nice to hear.

Also during that show, they said that Therrien since the 04-05 lockout, is the 6th winnest coach, I was like wtf, pretty crazy.

TBH I don't like how Therrien has handle somethings, or atleast the way it looks from the outside, ex Subban, and Briere, but looking at some of the team stats, its either we have great team or he isn't as bad as some make him seem.

Last year we were a top 10 5 on 5 team in terms of GF/GA ratio, top 10 in PP, top 10 in SH/ SA. Only thing that was bad was the pk unit which was ranked around 25th.

This year 5 on 5 isn't great, but it isn't bad, its around 16th I believe, btw I am looking at 5 on 5 GF/GA ratio, the pp has been up and down, but still decent. The pk unit has been much improved.

Like many I never thought MT was an X's and O's guy but it doesn't seem all that bad. Specially when you look at the teams record after scoring 1st, or leading after 2. I saw them on RDS or CBC just the other night, it was pretty crazy, something like 35-0-3 after leadeing after 2.

I have to say, its going to be pretty funny this summer around here when Bergevin gives MT a contract ext.

100% its going to happen, next year is MT last year, you never see a GM let a coach go into a season with just 1 year left on his contract, specially teams with money.

What's even funnier is that MT might be fired before the contract ext even kicks in, we seen it before, Ron Wilson fired just months after getting a contract ext, Noel with the Jets was giving an extra year in the summer since he was going into his last year on the deal and he was fired before it kicked in.
So we'll have 2 more years of MT mishandling and benching Subban before he walks has a UFA to another team. MT will have fully converted Subban to MAB by then I'd imagine.

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04-06-2014, 09:09 PM
  #293
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Anybody that wants Therrien fired at this point deserves a punch in the throat, period. if feels so good to have players accountable, to have 12 forwards and 6 defensmens that work their tales off. I don't give a crap if we don't play a puck possession system ala Red Wings, we don't have that many good puck carriers anyways, and what we're doing WORKS, and yes Price is a big part of it, but all great teams have great goalies, that's just how life works. We all want more ice-time for our prospects, but if Bergevin keeps stacking up on depth, a coach has to keep all players happy, that's how it goes.
Right... 'cause Subban's a prospect - not a freaking Norris winner right? And MT has done a great job keeping him happy. And look at the great job he's done getting the best out of him too.

We better pray to God that Subban really likes Montreal because MT has put on a clinic for how to ruin a star player. If we don't re-sign him, MT will be greatly responsible. And you can forget "punches to the throat" if that happens 'cause MT should be clotheslined all the way to China.

But you know... keep on drinkin' the Kool-Aid.

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04-06-2014, 09:11 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He doesn't deserve to be fired, but he sure as hell isn't a good coach. He's the type of coach where the minute the team slips for an extended period of time, you fire him. Good coaches will get the benefit of the doubt. Not him.
I think he does. The Pens fired him while he had a winning record and won the cup. He's not doing a good job here (winning record or not) so I don't see why he should keep his job.

Would you fire him? I think you would. I know I would.

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04-06-2014, 09:21 PM
  #295
hockeyfan2k11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think he does. The Pens fired him while he had a winning record and won the cup. He's not doing a good job here (winning record or not) so I don't see why he should keep his job.

Would you fire him? I think you would. I know I would.
Well, I wouldn't have hired him in the first place. Would I fire him? I'd wait to see what the team does in the playoffs. It's very hard to fire a guy when he team finishes near the top of the standings. You will have to make sure the incumbent coach (even if he's better on paper) takes the team further or your job may be in question.

Personally, I'd wait till next year. I the team struggled, I'd fire him. Gotta give him enough rope to hang himself.

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04-06-2014, 09:23 PM
  #296
Erik Estrada
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MT's style rubs me the wrong way. Some of the underlying metrics (Fenwich, Corsi, etc...) to this team are not great. Some of our youths have stagnated. Then there's Bouillon...

But, it's very difficult to criticize the coach of a team getting results. The difference between puck-possession numbers and on-ice success is not the gulf of paper tigers like the Leafs. Some of our youth have matured nicely (MaxPac, Carey). And despite Bouillon being MT's blind spot, his use seems to be hurting more PK's numbers than the team's numbers.

I'd be willing to trade MT messing up the Habs for the next 5 years for 1 Stanley Cup.

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04-06-2014, 11:37 PM
  #297
Kimota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
You're wrong though.

The habs played off-the-rush attacking, and a swarm defense in the playoffs. The same system we rolled all last season - the same system that failed.

He changed it slightly the beginning of this season and then fully midway through the first mini-slump.

I don't disagree that his recent defensive system is lacking in tactical acumen but so are you if you think that our system changed LAST year when the playoffs and reg season were exactly identical.
Nope we didn't play at all in the playoffs like we played in the regular season. And MT had already started to change their style by the end of the season just before the playoffs.

We went from puck possession and dominating the play to playing a trapping style.

I know this because the way they played last year, I had never seen the Habs play this way before. It was amazing. It was like Detroit, always pressuring with opposite teams getting stuck in their zone forever cause of our style. But near the end of the season, Habs won one match with a more defensive style, waiting for their chances and after the game, MT said he was happy they the team learned to win in another way. He had this huge grin on his face. And they kept that same style for the remaining of the playoffs. It's almost like he had the Habs play a puck possession game to please the fans but now he was doing it his way. And the rest is history.


Last edited by Kimota: 04-06-2014 at 11:44 PM.
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