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Old
03-06-2014, 01:12 AM
  #1
HSF
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Relax.

Crazy the amount of people running around with their head cut off

The team is learning some hard lessons especially the young guys. We see now that Cowen/Weir/Lehner/ Zibby/Karlsson can be widely inconsistent and they were expected to be better and slowly phase out the vets. At the start of the year we started with

Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Weir
Phillips - Boro?

It was clear what the plan was but with Cowen and Weir just not playing that great it has forced the coaches to play Phillips in a higher position. I am sure Ottawa would love to give more starts to Lehner but he too has shown some really poor outings after a great start. Zibby had some good moments and some really invisible moments. Clearly these guys aren't rdy to take this team to the next level and they HAVE to if we want to go anywhere cause guys like Spezza/Phillips/Neil are playing more cause they HAVE to. Until a guy like Cowen can play better than Philly, Zibby better than Spezza and someone can replace the toughness that Neil brings the coaches will be forced to play them.


1. Our team, especially our defense, is very young. It is clear that a bunch of guys on defense just weren't as ready as we hoped. Cowen/Weir/Ceci some nights just don't seem like NHL players but that is the ups and downs of young guys. Cowen looked great a couple seasons ago, weir last year and ceci when he first came up but with that comes the bad. These guys are learning some hard lessons and I for one am happy that Phillips is around to mentor them and teach them how to be professionals as Maclean said today.

2. Spezza has shown a lot a character this year imo. He started of poorly partly due to injury but since coming back he has been great and probably our best forward scoring clutch goals. It is CLEAR to me he is not done. It is also clear to me that Turris and Zibby are not near his calibre yet when he is going. I think the best course of action is to keep spezza around until someone surpasses clearly surpasses him.

3. This bs about Melnyk not being able to spend is kind of annoying to continuously here. It is has gone so far that people want to pick up Ehrhoff..... he is 31 years of age and is signed till 2021.....2021!!!!!! Holyyyyyyyyy. Melnyk said we wont be a cap team NEXT year that doesn't mean we wont spend more it means we won't go out and be idiots like Buffalo before and spend and hand out ridiculous contracts .

4. Karlsson...buddy i love you but you just can't keep getting walked night in night out in MUST win games. He too is young and we are seeing the inconsistencies in his game. He has to be better and as a ways to go but I am sure he will figure it out.


Young team = Patience

Even I am frustrated but this should be expected I guess with players this young.

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Old
03-06-2014, 01:27 AM
  #2
SenatorArmy
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I actually agree.

Accept the suck.

Embrace the suck.

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Old
03-06-2014, 02:03 AM
  #3
Benny FTW
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Our inexperienced team just lost 2 games in a row to even less experienced and worse teams while not really showing effort or drive.

The Sens this year have two types of games; just manage to win or don't show up.

Being young is only part of the problem. One of many problems.

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03-06-2014, 02:05 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by SenatorArmy View Post
I actually agree.

Accept the suck.

Embrace the suck.
Get a top player in the draft.

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Old
03-06-2014, 02:34 AM
  #5
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Old
03-06-2014, 02:51 AM
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Saying "relax" during what figures to be a disaster of a season doesn't make you look composed or zen-like. Our odds to make the playoffs are very low and the outlook for the future has undeniably gone down a lot.
1. Cowen never looked great, and I've followed him since his WHL days. He's untalented offensively and is not figuring it out at all defensively, and he really ought to be in Binghamton because he has never shown NHL capable play. Gryba looks like organizational filler, which isn't necessarily a sleight against him, but he's nothing worth getting attached to. Wiercioch has been much worse than last year. Borowiecki will never be an NHL calibre player. Ceci has improved his stock some . Overall the signs from the young D have been mostly bad, and we don't really have a ton of prospects emerging, with a blatant need for another top 4 type, and I'm more than likely assuming we'll just stick Cowen back there and pretend he has improved any. Re-signing Phillips was desperate.
2. Spezza still has the vision and skillset he had before but physically he's a mess and that's something to be very worried about considering his injury history and age. He has gotten absolutely killed day-in, day-out all year at even strength while getting favourable zone starts and linemates. He looks like a too-expensive powerplay specialist at this point and I never thought that of him even back in the Jacques Martin years.
3. Melnyk is one of the very worst owners in sports, his penny pinching has crippled the team and is thoroughly unnecessary given the position and will likely render us uncompetitive for his tenure as owner. I'm not usually one to care about attitude but his is an absolute plague on the franchise and the city as a whole and his continued presence is making me nostalgic for the days when we couldn't pay our players and our continued existence was constantly in doubt. Christian Ehrhoff is a great player and would easily be our 2nd best defenseman, and while his contract is long it's only 4 million a year for a proven top pairing level guy.
4. Karlsson has clearly been our best player all year and has matched his 2011-12 production. He gets undue criticism because Spezza and Michalek have gone from one of the best duos in the league to a suicide pact on skates, we have 1 other defenseman besides him who qualifies as at least NHL average and our goaltending has gone right back to awful. He is by far the biggest reason we have anything resembling a functioning power play and offense, without him we'd be scoring at Buffalo rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OttawaGM View Post
Get a top player in the draft.
We don't have a 1st rounder.

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Old
03-06-2014, 06:06 AM
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I'd be okay with the losing (based on having so many young players etc...) if we had our 1st round pick...but to me, when the Ryan trade went down, ownership and management were saying that the rebuild was over (an obvious miscalculation). Expectations were raised, and the team hasn't delivered. Very frustrating season.

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Old
03-06-2014, 06:16 AM
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Panic threads everywhere!!!!!!

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Old
03-06-2014, 07:53 AM
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Yes, we have lots of young players. But our biggest problem might be that they don't amount to very much.

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Old
03-06-2014, 07:56 AM
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Problem is the players have given up on the coach/management. There's not much you can do to salvage that. We're going to finish off the year with whatever we can muster in terms of wins but I presume something is going to change this off season.

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Old
03-06-2014, 08:26 AM
  #11
MtRundle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSF View Post


1. Our team, especially our defense, is very young. It is clear that a bunch of guys on defense just weren't as ready as we hoped. Cowen/Weir/Ceci some nights just don't seem like NHL players but that is the ups and downs of young guys.

SNIPP


Young team = Patience

Even I am frustrated but this should be expected I guess with players this young.
Problem is Murray and Melnyk are saying

"Lets go for the cup! in the next 2 years"
and
"I like our D core, we need to add a F"

So they have no idea how far we are away from competing..

I see it getting worse, not better.

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Old
03-06-2014, 08:36 AM
  #12
MAK19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenatorArmy View Post
I actually agree.

Accept the suck.

Embrace the suck.
I absolutely would if ownership and management weren't doing things in an effort to win now. I still can't believe this team was a buyer at the deadline

The amount of multi million dollar passengers and AHL caliber players on this team is astounding. Of all the players they could get rid of, they rid of Conacher. wtf

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtRundle View Post
Problem is Murray and Melnyk are saying

"Lets go for the cup! in the next 2 years"
and
"I like our D core, we need to add a F"

So they have no idea how far we are away from competing..

I see it getting worse, not better.
This. This is why I'm freaking out. Instead building, they're gutting the team to boost this short term **** show. If you don't consider trading a couple draft picks as gutting, then they're still a treadmill team like Fuhr says. Just going nowhere.

No direction. They have no idea what they're doing. Pisses me off

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Old
03-06-2014, 08:47 AM
  #13
PeterSidorkiewicz
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We've been a small market budget team our entire franchise minus like two years. I don't understand why people can't accept this, we're a small market team.

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03-06-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
We've been a small market budget team our entire franchise minus like two years. I don't understand why people can't accept this, we're a small market team.
Well that's not what pisses me off. Personally

- Horrible coaching decisions regarding lines, roster moves, ice time distribution and usage
- Meddling owner who thinks he can make hockey decisions
- Buying and trying to compete for the Cup when it's nowhere near possible
- Spending lots of $$$ on crap players, despite being a budget team

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Old
03-06-2014, 09:05 AM
  #15
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agree, so many whiners on here...please do us a favour and just go join leaf nation

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Old
03-06-2014, 11:33 AM
  #16
Leave Spezza Alone
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We don't have a 1st rounder.
thatsthejoke.jpeg

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Old
03-06-2014, 11:35 AM
  #17
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Unless we are getting a top 5 pick not too worried about the pick. Murray didn't seem to worried either he thinks Ryan is well worth it

This draft is just not that good

It is very very likely we got the best player in the deal. Silverberg certainly won't be as good as Ryan if he hasn't shown it already same with noesen and the pick probably won't we don't suck as much as some of these tanking teams

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Old
03-06-2014, 11:54 AM
  #18
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Thanks HSF, was going to start a thread, but like the tone of yours :)

For all the ups and downs, I enjoy you all. Like a big dysfunctional family

It's not easy being a Sens fan, but it isn't easy being the fan of any team. Remember it was only a few short years ago that Chicago was coming out of some of the darkest days in their history. The leafs are STILL toiling in a decade of mediocrity. The Pens were terrible before Crosby, etc...

The reality is that the fans of every team have their own host of issues that make being a fan an exercise in manic depression. Experience, and perhaps a touch of perspective can help fans moderate the downs while still enjoying the highs (perhaps a dose of medication, prescribed or not can help too .

Our Sens

Coaching: We have a very young coach, so we can either let him work through his own ups and downs, or we can turn on him at first chance. The choice is an individual one, however, I feel as though it's the price that gets paid for having a coach new to the job. We have had several new ones that have flamed out, or have been terrible from the get go, and now we have one that has been terrific for his first few seasons, and is now dealing with his own adversity for the first time. I imagine that he will spend the summer looking at what went wrong, and work hard to make changes in his own style to help the team move forward. He seems like the kind of guy that takes his fair share of the blame.

He deserves the same chance we all do, to be able to take a step back this summer and make some corrections to the game this team plays. If we have another year of sliding then we can revisit the situation, but you can't be a long term coach without some downs to go with the ups.

Forwards: We have a great group of forwards in general, and we have little problem scoring. Spezza has been awesome since coming back from injury, and has been getting better and better. I know that some will hate him because "he had 4 drop passes" in a game, but I just ignore that confirmation bias stuff now. He has his faults, but they pale in comparison to his benefits. He continues to be our best forward. He looked good with Hemsky, and I'm hoping that continues to grow. Skill in the top 6 is what we need.

I would like us to be looking at lines like this going into camp baring moves (Hemsky/Michalek could be replaced with other players via trade/UFA):

Lazar - Spezza - Hemsky
Mac T - Turris - Ryan
Michalek - Zib - Hoffman
Stone - Smith - Neil

Lots of skill here, and a nice spread of speed and skill on each line.

Defence: We have a VERY young group here, and if we listen to what Murray has said, he likes the group but understands that they needs games under their collective belts before expecting more. He seems to view the defensive woes as growing pains, and I'm inclined to agree. We can 'build' a contender without giving our young players a chance to grow. The last couple years have created unrealistic expectations, but the reality is that we were running one fumes, and on rookie enthusiasm. We also had an unknown team to the rest of the league, whereas our players are known now, and we are expected to play competitively.

I would like to see our young guys be given the chance to grow. The reality is that we SHOULD be a bottom 10 team at this stage of our rebuild, and would be were it not for the strength of our goaltending and offence. Defence is where we really see the rebuild of our team, coincidentally, defence is the hardest and most expensive part to build. We already have some beautiful pieces, they just need to gain experience and develop.

Karlsson - Methot
Ceci - Gryba
Open spot/Phillips - Cowen

7th spot should be held by a guy like Carkner was for us.

Trades: We have the young assets to package to upgrade at any area on the team, it just has to be the right move. Sure there are options, but we need to make sure it's a Turris type deal. We'll have to trade some roster players, and we'll have to trade some prospects, simply because there isn't room. The time is this summer as some of the young guys need NHL burn time now, so I expect a trade for a good young player with contract, basically a Ryan or Turris type trade, a guy that will join us for the future.

Goaltending: Is awesome! Lehner needs time as we have seen this year, and as he's seen. Andy has been great for us, not that he hasn't had his downs, but he was allowed to work through it and has done so. Lehner will be great and will likely get more games next year. Ease him into the NHL role... Prospects are looking decent as well.

Leadership: This is a tough area to qualify. It seems like when we lose it's because the leadership sucks, and when we win, it's not the leadership. guys having off games, or a lack of intensity on the ice is attributed to leadership, or lack thereof. Essentially, it has opened up another avenue to criticize Spezza, Neil, and Phillips. The problem is that it's all conjecture. We really have no idea who has influence, and what is said and done behind closed doors. We hear rumours and turn them into hundreds of 'factual' posts. Without ever having been in a leadership position, it's difficult to understand what is required from a person. Also, the dynamic of a particular group requires different things from leaders, and this dynamic changes as bodies arrive and leave, and as people get older. Less what is said, more what is done. A leader first and foremost needs to lead by example.

Spezza, for all his detractors does this in my mind. Before you all harp on the drop passes and slow back checks, I will qualify this by saying that he has been injured, has to work within the constraints of his body, and is an offensive catalyst. Spezza is always driving the offence, is always dangerous in the offensive zone, and is always looking to set up players in position to score goals. The healthier physically he is, be more dynamic this becomes. He is NOT a two way force, he is an OFFENSIVE force, and his lead by example is from his area of strength. Anything else is unrealistic for the player in question, not that he is bad defensively. He's the guy the team looks to get them back into the game by scoring or creatings coring chances.

Neil is similar. He leads by example by doing what he is good at; hitting, crashing, and fighting. He can't be looked at to score goals, he can't be expected to bring clutch offence, and he can't be expected to fly down the wing. As long as he's working his skillset hard, he's doing his job, and leading by example. He's the guy the team looks to to set a physical tone, protect players, and punish.

Phillips is a tough area. His skills have deteriorated, and he can't play a punishing game. He is able to elevate, but just can't move fast enough anymore. It's good for the organization to create legacies, especially for players that want to stay, but he's a bottom pairing guy that has a TON of experience in the league. His leadership is likely best shown in the locker room, as well as playoff games as he tends to leave everything on the ice.

Keep in mind, Spezza is in his first year as a captain of the team. There is a learning curve as he realizes and experiences how the buck stops with him. If we remember back, Alfie struggled in his first years as captain, it's only after several years for good and bad, that we finally accepted him as 'the captain'. The A's are where they should be. Phillips and Neil are senator royalty and have bled for the team. The young guys can still be vocal, but they should aspire to have the longevity, the reverence, and the loyalty that these vets have shown. Young players need to have things to earn, and need to value the vets of the team, and the letters. We aren't the Oilers, our letters are given once earned over a consistent period of time.

Senator Culture and reverence is not the same as every other team. Each team has an identity and a way things go (like not stepping on the logo in the dressing room). We need to be careful how we judge things from the outside.

Guiding my understanding and emotions towards our team are:

- year 3 of rebuild
- lots of youth on the team
- year of transition
- new identity forming with new young core and new captain
- first bit of real diversity for this group from coach down

Clearly I had the morning off

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Old
03-06-2014, 11:55 AM
  #19
John Holmes*
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I don't think we're a small market at all.

There has to be 1 Million people in the Ottawa and surrounding area. The Senators are more or less the only game in town as well.

Having a team in a city of 4 Million people that couldn't care less about hockey isn't some sort of advantage.

Yes we have many young players, and everybody knows about growing pains. What we are seeing isn't that though. We're watching a team that has quit, and that is what drives fans nuts.

It's a toxic environment. Something needs to change. The "old guard" needs to go, and we need a completely fresh management team.

Murray's had his time, and he's failed miserably. Just like everywhere else he's ever been.

What's the definition of insanity again? Someone mentioned it the other day.

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Old
03-06-2014, 12:02 PM
  #20
Ice-Tray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Our inexperienced team just lost 2 games in a row to even less experienced and worse teams while not really showing effort or drive.

The Sens this year have two types of games; just manage to win or don't show up.

Being young is only part of the problem. One of many problems.
At this time of year, teams that are not making the playoffs will always play pressure free hockey, and will play spoiler to teams in the hunt. This happens every year.

Inexperienced, young, teams in the hunt are the ones that suffer.

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03-06-2014, 12:05 PM
  #21
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murray is awesome, I say.

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Old
03-06-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Well that's not what pisses me off. Personally

- Horrible coaching decisions regarding lines, roster moves, ice time distribution and usage
- Meddling owner who thinks he can make hockey decisions
- Buying and trying to compete for the Cup when it's nowhere near possible
- Spending lots of $$$ on crap players, despite being a budget team
Yes. I agree with this completely.

Management has no sense of direction. Trying to "win now" and be a budget team just flat out doesn't work.

Okay fine, so we are on a budget. But then to spend 5 million a year to keep Phillips and Greening on the team? Really?

I'm not one to say "I'm done with this team" and go Johnny Drama, but I have lowered my expectations significantly for what will unfold here in the next few years.

Having an almost full building each night and being 26th in league spending is just filthy. As they say, and as unfair as it may sound, most sports owners don't own their teams for profit. It's for fun. So if Melnyk can't afford it, gtfo.

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Old
03-06-2014, 12:08 PM
  #23
Neil Patrick Harris
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murray is awesome, I say.
We kept the wrong Murray, I say.

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03-06-2014, 12:09 PM
  #24
Alfieghetti
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bryan is flyin

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03-06-2014, 12:10 PM
  #25
Ice-Tray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
Saying "relax" during what figures to be a disaster of a season doesn't make you look composed or zen-like. Our odds to make the playoffs are very low and the outlook for the future has undeniably gone down a lot.
1. Cowen never looked great, and I've followed him since his WHL days. He's untalented offensively and is not figuring it out at all defensively, and he really ought to be in Binghamton because he has never shown NHL capable play. Gryba looks like organizational filler, which isn't necessarily a sleight against him, but he's nothing worth getting attached to. Wiercioch has been much worse than last year. Borowiecki will never be an NHL calibre player. Ceci has improved his stock some . Overall the signs from the young D have been mostly bad, and we don't really have a ton of prospects emerging, with a blatant need for another top 4 type, and I'm more than likely assuming we'll just stick Cowen back there and pretend he has improved any. Re-signing Phillips was desperate.
2. Spezza still has the vision and skillset he had before but physically he's a mess and that's something to be very worried about considering his injury history and age. He has gotten absolutely killed day-in, day-out all year at even strength while getting favourable zone starts and linemates. He looks like a too-expensive powerplay specialist at this point and I never thought that of him even back in the Jacques Martin years.
3. Melnyk is one of the very worst owners in sports, his penny pinching has crippled the team and is thoroughly unnecessary given the position and will likely render us uncompetitive for his tenure as owner. I'm not usually one to care about attitude but his is an absolute plague on the franchise and the city as a whole and his continued presence is making me nostalgic for the days when we couldn't pay our players and our continued existence was constantly in doubt. Christian Ehrhoff is a great player and would easily be our 2nd best defenseman, and while his contract is long it's only 4 million a year for a proven top pairing level guy.
4. Karlsson has clearly been our best player all year and has matched his 2011-12 production. He gets undue criticism because Spezza and Michalek have gone from one of the best duos in the league to a suicide pact on skates, we have 1 other defenseman besides him who qualifies as at least NHL average and our goaltending has gone right back to awful. He is by far the biggest reason we have anything resembling a functioning power play and offense, without him we'd be scoring at Buffalo rates.


We don't have a 1st rounder.
Saying 'relax' and doing it is absolutely Zen-like. Calling for patience is the right thing to do here, especially when it's obviously the opinion from organizational management from top down. Disagreeing with the idea is fine, but it will inevitably put you at odds with the philosophy of the team and lead to many upset evenings, which seems to be where you're at.

I won't go through your post given that it's filled with obvious hyperbole. Suffice it to say that I don't find any part of your assessment reasonable, from your praise of Karlsson, to your criticism of Melnyk. As an example, you can't use a magical trade for a player as an example of a criticism of the owner. You have no idea if the player was available, you have no idea what the cost was to acquire him, and no idea if the team was remotely interested in adding him as a player. Add to that that he's not that great a player and it becomes easy to dismiss your statement as a whole.

A more relaxed approach from you would mean that we could engage in an actual discussion.

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