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07-10-2014, 12:35 AM
  #876
Markstrom Rules
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
Of course. Which is why targeting Sharp is a great idea. Still gotta pay though. Don't forget, if I recall correctly, he led their team in goals.

You can't try and ask for Sharp and say that Grimaldi is not available, for example. Because at that point you're pretty much saying "nothing that we perceive as serious long term talent is available" for their top tier NHL talent. And keep in mind... if a player isn't top quality to our pool, it's probably not top quality to Chicago, either.
I totally agree, Grimaldi is absolutely expendable. I also think tallon will dangle next year's 2nd. Some teams might still think we'll finish poorly.

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07-10-2014, 04:21 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Aksu View Post
Bolland as 1C?
As if the Panthers really have a 1st line.. Their top 2 lines will be pretty much equal. Im sure 3rd line will get a lot of ice time as well.

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07-10-2014, 09:41 AM
  #878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Tallon targeted Bolland for a specific role, and that's not it. Whoever ripped you for putting Bolland on the 3rd line is wrong. That's probably where he ends up.
Yeah but I would say Tallon is making a mistake then. Also, Tallon isnt the coach so if Gallant sees fit to put him in a different role (and it is successful) in the lineup, it shouldnt matter to Tallon. If Tallon tries to control even that aspect, then we're no better than when Keenan was here if you ask me.
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
You can spread Bolland's minutes out a little, and you don't necessarily want your top centers playing more than 18 min. every game anyway, that will burn them out.
Spreading Bollands minutes out means that he's eating into Bjugstad & Barkov's minutes. Actually top centers in the NHL generally play 20 mins/game...Crosby 22 mins, Getzlaf 21+ mins, Giroux 20+ mins, Pavelski 20 mins, Malkin 20 mins, Tavares 21 mins, E.Staal 20 mins. And there are tons of top line centers who average about 19 mins consistently too. Most 2nd line centers are usually averaging 18 mins as well. I dont see other teams' centers being burnt out by playing that much so dont see why it would happen with Barkov & Bjugstad (especially now that they are no longer rookies). Bolland will steal a good amount of those 2 guys' mins, no way around it.

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07-10-2014, 11:31 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Yeah but I would say Tallon is making a mistake then. Also, Tallon isnt the coach so if Gallant sees fit to put him in a different role (and it is successful) in the lineup, it shouldnt matter to Tallon. If Tallon tries to control even that aspect, then we're no better than when Keenan was here if you ask me.

Spreading Bollands minutes out means that he's eating into Bjugstad & Barkov's minutes. Actually top centers in the NHL generally play 20 mins/game...Crosby 22 mins, Getzlaf 21+ mins, Giroux 20+ mins, Pavelski 20 mins, Malkin 20 mins, Tavares 21 mins, E.Staal 20 mins. And there are tons of top line centers who average about 19 mins consistently too. Most 2nd line centers are usually averaging 18 mins as well. I dont see other teams' centers being burnt out by playing that much so dont see why it would happen with Barkov & Bjugstad (especially now that they are no longer rookies). Bolland will steal a good amount of those 2 guys' mins, no way around it.
I'm sure Gallant sees that Tallon brought Bolland in for a specific role, and being in the same division I think Gallant sees the value of Bolland as a checking center as well. Who knows you may end up being right, but I don't see Bolland being slotted there by Gallant. That's pretty out of left field.

Barkov and Bjugstad are still just sophomore centers, 18 and 22. It would be nice to ease them in. If they show they can shoulder more of the load, then by all means give it to them, but Bolland is here to take pressure off them.

It's fine if Bolland is stealing hard minutes from Barkov and Bjugstad. Let him play against the other teams' top centers, let them play the easier minutes and produce more offense, to start out at least.

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07-10-2014, 12:19 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I'm sure Gallant sees that Tallon brought Bolland in for a specific role, and being in the same division I think Gallant sees the value of Bolland as a checking center as well. Who knows you may end up being right, but I don't see Bolland being slotted there by Gallant. That's pretty out of left field.

Barkov and Bjugstad are still just sophomore centers, 18 and 22. It would be nice to ease them in. If they show they can shoulder more of the load, then by all means give it to them, but Bolland is here to take pressure off them.

It's fine if Bolland is stealing hard minutes from Barkov and Bjugstad. Let him play against the other teams' top centers, let them play the easier minutes and produce more offense, to start out at least.
I concur.

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07-10-2014, 12:57 PM
  #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I'm sure Gallant sees that Tallon brought Bolland in for a specific role, and being in the same division I think Gallant sees the value of Bolland as a checking center as well. Who knows you may end up being right, but I don't see Bolland being slotted there by Gallant. That's pretty out of left field.

Barkov and Bjugstad are still just sophomore centers, 18 and 22. It would be nice to ease them in. If they show they can shoulder more of the load, then by all means give it to them, but Bolland is here to take pressure off them.

It's fine if Bolland is stealing hard minutes from Barkov and Bjugstad. Let him play against the other teams' top centers, let them play the easier minutes and produce more offense, to start out at least.
Not disagreeing. However had Barkov played with even average level NHL 1st line wingers last season his output (pointwise) could've potentially doubled. Flash would have trouble making 2nd line winger in a good team. Bergenheim is a 3rd line player and always has been. Boyez, well... there's a reason why the team was able to sign him for free basicly. And finally Versteeg is becoming a four-letter word at Hawks board.

While Bolland is propably bringing fresh options on the table, everytime for some reason I'm having a heavy gasp hearing the name (or the contract) mentioned. Especially knowing who Toronto replaced him with and how much they had to pay for what they got.

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07-10-2014, 06:11 PM
  #882
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Not disagreeing. However had Barkov played with even average level NHL 1st line wingers last season his output (pointwise) could've potentially doubled. Flash would have trouble making 2nd line winger in a good team. Bergenheim is a 3rd line player and always has been. Boyez, well... there's a reason why the team was able to sign him for free basicly. And finally Versteeg is becoming a four-letter word at Hawks board.

While Bolland is propably bringing fresh options on the table, everytime for some reason I'm having a heavy gasp hearing the name (or the contract) mentioned. Especially knowing who Toronto replaced him with and how much they had to pay for what they got.
I'll take Bolland over Komarov or Kontiola. His contract sucks, but it's not my money.

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07-10-2014, 11:07 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I'll take Bolland over Komarov or Kontiola. His contract sucks, but it's not my money.
It's team's money and at some point it's coming back to bite.
Also 1,1m x 1 Kontiola >> 5,5m x 5 Bolland any day and any week.

Contracts aside and he's still twice the Bolland in the O-zone and twice a player he ever was during Chicago time. Atm the best Fin outside NHL. I'm guessing you don't know much about him, but I've watched a ton of him. Lehterä made the jump as well to and is likely to start at the 2nd line in the Blues and out of these two Kontiola was the better guy. We can do another dialogue of the topic when the season starts off.

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07-10-2014, 11:55 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by kelsier View Post
It's team's money and at some point it's coming back to bite.
Also 1,1m x 1 Kontiola >> 5,5m x 5 Bolland any day and any week.

Contracts aside and he's still twice the Bolland in the O-zone and twice a player he ever was during Chicago time. Atm the best Fin outside NHL. I'm guessing you don't know much about him, but I've watched a ton of him. Lehterä made the jump as well to and is likely to start at the 2nd line in the Blues and out of these two Kontiola was the better guy. We can do another dialogue of the topic when the season starts off.
If at some point down the road Bollands contract prevents us from re-signing key players or acquiring a superstar, then I'll be upset. But this summer, we don't look like we'll be close to the cap, and we have 14M coming off the payroll next summer in Flash, Upshall, Kopecky, and Bergy. We have prospects ready to take most of their spots. We also have Campbell coming off the books in 2 years.

Bollands contract is a bad contract, but I don't think its going to hurt us long term. Like we are the only team that's ever overpaid for a player or paid a guy 5.5M. Sometimes you have to overpay to get the guy you want. That's what happens in free agency. The cap keeps going up. Its not the end of the world like some people make it out to be.

Kontiola is better than Bolland in the O zone but not in any other facet. I know about him, there's a reason he didn't stick in Chicago years ago and has only played 12 NHL games, and that was before Chicago even started making the playoffs. And why he's just now making a second try at the NHL at 29 years old. I think you're hyping him up just a tad much. Bolland has two Cup rings and a Cup winng goal.

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07-11-2014, 12:34 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
If at some point down the road Bollands contract prevents us from re-signing key players or acquiring a superstar, then I'll be upset. But this summer, we don't look like we'll be close to the cap, and we have 14M coming off the payroll next summer in Flash, Upshall, Kopecky, and Bergy. We have prospects ready to take most of their spots. We also have Campbell coming off the books in 2 years.

Bollands contract is a bad contract, but I don't think its going to hurt us long term. Like we are the only team that's ever overpaid for a player or paid a guy 5.5M. Sometimes you have to overpay to get the guy you want. That's what happens in free agency. The cap keeps going up. Its not the end of the world like some people make it out to be.

Kontiola is better than Bolland in the O zone but not in any other facet. I know about him, there's a reason he didn't stick in Chicago years ago and has only played 12 NHL games, and that was before Chicago even started making the playoffs. And why he's just now making a second try at the NHL at 29 years old. I think you're hyping him up just a tad much. Bolland has two Cup rings and a Cup winng goal.
If we were talking about overpaying a top6 player I might bite it, but in this I rather rest with rest of the community.

There is where your knowledge shorts off. Kontiola is a playmaking 2 way goalscorer and no slouch at his own end. He only played 12 games in the Hawks and later on admitted he didn't work out hard enough and regretted it. He is a late bloomer. Also there is a reason why he signed with Toronto and another reason why his contract is only 1 year of length. Guess I don't need to point out why.

There where 5 other teams after him, but obviously he saw more opportunities in Toronto and accepted less salary. He actually payed out his KHL contract from his own pocket and is making pretty much +/- 0$ next year. There is no overhype in saying he's a far better player than Bolland. The only aspect giving edge to B is having more NHL experience under the belt, but this guy would never had made it to Finland's olympic roster nor would he have been chosen the best forward in the 2013 WC against the likes of Kovalchuk while tying Saku Koivu's record of all time points.

Correction: Wasn't MVP in 2013, but the best forward.
And to specify: He tied Koivu in all time points of team Finland.


Last edited by kelsier: 07-11-2014 at 12:46 AM.
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07-11-2014, 01:52 AM
  #886
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From a managerial point of view, yes, that contract hurts this team.

But he does make a good point... a better deal does not mean a better team. I would rather overpay a better guy than get a good deal on a lesser talent.

Now, I still think Bolland's contract is poisonous because he won't be a 1-2-3 C in 3 years time, I figure.

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07-11-2014, 02:06 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
From a managerial point of view, yes, that contract hurts this team.

But he does make a good point... a better deal does not mean a better team. I would rather overpay a better guy than get a good deal on a lesser talent.

Now, I still think Bolland's contract is poisonous because he won't be a 1-2-3 C in 3 years time, I figure.
He has a point there but is not on the chart when picking that better player. All in all, rather useless argument because we cannot foresee into the future and see who beats who. Time will tell and I am pretty certain of my instincts but if they're off, then so be it. Would suck to be right from Panther's perspective while being wrong would turn into a disappointment for other reasons. Oh the irony.

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07-11-2014, 06:59 PM
  #888
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I'd say the lines for the 14-15 season would be something like:

Jokinen - Barkov - Boyes
Huberdeau - Bjugstad - Pirri
Bergenheim - Bolland - Flash
Upshall - Mackenzie - J.Hayes
Scratches: Kopecky, Thornton

Campbell - Mitchell
Kulikov - Gudbranson
Olsen - Ekblad/Petrovic

Before this season starts, I would want to see Tallon acquiring K.Hayes, Paul Ranger (a cheap 1-way deal; I like his stats), and Del Zotto (a cheap 1-way deal; I know, a shot at the dark) for depth.

I think we could have a kick-ass bottom six after this season. If Howden, Shore, Hayes and Trocheck would have a relatively successful seasons in the panthers roster (each playing 20-40 games while potting 15-25 points), that would lead to a lot of guys fighting for the bottom six spots in the 15-16 season. For the 15-16 season, I'd like to see the roster below for the 15-16 season (or something similar) with Tallon acquiring C.Stewart as a FA. We should gradually add "pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence" to the team. A lot of the success is dependent on creating a fair amount of competition for every position on the roster. In the previous year, everyone pretty much took their roster spot for granted.

Jokinen - Barkov - Boyes
Huberdeau - Bjugstad - Pirri
Howden/Bergenheim - Bolland - Stewart
K.Hayes/Upshall - Trocheck - J.Hayes/Shore

Campbell - Ekblad
Kulikov - Gudbranson
Olsen/Ranger/Del Zotto - Mitchell/Petrovic

Tallon most likely acquired Bolland because they were relying on Barkov and Bjugstad for the no. 1 and 2 centers and there isn't no one to replace them if one of them gets hurt (like Barkov during the Olympic games). Regardless, his contract length is too much especially when Barkov, Pirri, co. want their ca$h money and panthers gotta possibly add a lefty top4 Dman from FA market after Campbell's contract expires.

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07-11-2014, 08:23 PM
  #889
CHGoalie27
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Oh man, the Rocco doubters...we shall see! Hope we all hope I haven't "Rocco Rules" overrated like MR

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07-11-2014, 08:26 PM
  #890
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It's not doubters though! Rocco is expendable solely on the grounds that if you want to acquire a talent like Patrick Sharp who puts up 25-40 goals, you MUST be willing to give up good talent.

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07-11-2014, 08:29 PM
  #891
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As for Barkov and Bjugstad's minutes...

I'm sure if they start shining, they will see those 20 minutes. If they don't, they will see three equal spreads with Bolland.

There's nothing wrong with that.

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07-12-2014, 04:15 PM
  #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc Discard View Post
I'd say the lines for the 14-15 season would be something like:

Jokinen - Barkov - Boyes
Huberdeau - Bjugstad - Pirri
Bergenheim - Bolland - Flash
Upshall - Mackenzie - J.Hayes
Scratches: Kopecky, Thornton

Campbell - Mitchell
Kulikov - Gudbranson
Olsen - Ekblad/Petrovic

Before this season starts, I would want to see Tallon acquiring K.Hayes, Paul Ranger (a cheap 1-way deal; I like his stats), and Del Zotto (a cheap 1-way deal; I know, a shot at the dark) for depth.

I think we could have a kick-ass bottom six after this season. If Howden, Shore, Hayes and Trocheck would have a relatively successful seasons in the panthers roster (each playing 20-40 games while potting 15-25 points), that would lead to a lot of guys fighting for the bottom six spots in the 15-16 season. For the 15-16 season, I'd like to see the roster below for the 15-16 season (or something similar) with Tallon acquiring C.Stewart as a FA. We should gradually add "pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence" to the team. A lot of the success is dependent on creating a fair amount of competition for every position on the roster. In the previous year, everyone pretty much took their roster spot for granted.

Jokinen - Barkov - Boyes
Huberdeau - Bjugstad - Pirri
Howden/Bergenheim - Bolland - Stewart
K.Hayes/Upshall - Trocheck - J.Hayes/Shore

Campbell - Ekblad
Kulikov - Gudbranson
Olsen/Ranger/Del Zotto - Mitchell/Petrovic

Tallon most likely acquired Bolland because they were relying on Barkov and Bjugstad for the no. 1 and 2 centers and there isn't no one to replace them if one of them gets hurt (like Barkov during the Olympic games). Regardless, his contract length is too much especially when Barkov, Pirri, co. want their ca$h money and panthers gotta possibly add a lefty top4 Dman from FA market after Campbell's contract expires.
I like the addition of Stewart to replace Upshall's spot and your comment of adding toughness over the next couple years. Your line up looks good but not great. Adding Del Zotto for a #5-6 role wouldn't be so bad as long as it's a shorter term deal (2 years ideally)

I think Mackenize is slotted to 4C for the entirety of his contract. I don't want Trocheck playing on any 4th line for the Panthers, he should be in the AHL to start this season, I see him as Bergy's replacement if he gets traded. (prefer if we re-sign Bergy and trade or let Kopecky walk and have Tro play 3rd line minutes)

There's probably no way Ekblad plays top pairing minutes his first year. I'd love if he could elevate his game that fast but I just don't see it. One would assume Matheson will be our Campbell replacement, hopefully he can make it into the lineup right around the time Soupy's contract is up.

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07-12-2014, 08:15 PM
  #893
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I like the addition of Stewart to replace Upshall's spot and your comment of adding toughness over the next couple years. Your line up looks good but not great. Adding Del Zotto for a #5-6 role wouldn't be so bad as long as it's a shorter term deal (2 years ideally)

I think Mackenize is slotted to 4C for the entirety of his contract. I don't want Trocheck playing on any 4th line for the Panthers, he should be in the AHL to start this season, I see him as Bergy's replacement if he gets traded. (prefer if we re-sign Bergy and trade or let Kopecky walk and have Tro play 3rd line minutes)

There's probably no way Ekblad plays top pairing minutes his first year. I'd love if he could elevate his game that fast but I just don't see it. One would assume Matheson will be our Campbell replacement, hopefully he can make it into the lineup right around the time Soupy's contract is up.
I concur that the lines I mentioned are not great, because I'm highly skeptical about getting someone like Sharp as an goal scorer during/after the upcoming season via trades. I believe that we're gonna stick with Barkov, Boyes, Jokinen, Bjugstad, Huberdeau, and Pirri for the top6 for the next two season. As far as Bergenheim, Flash, Upshall and Kopecky goes for the top9 roles, we're gonna see guys traded for 3rd-5h round picks and roster spots going to Trocheck, Howden, Hayes and/or Shore. I really don't know what role Howden would have on the team but I'd like to see how he operates alongside of Barkov.

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07-12-2014, 10:08 PM
  #894
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Can anyone explain their not keeping Bergy&Boyes with either Barkov or Bjugstad? Chemistry proven, what gives guys?

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07-12-2014, 10:58 PM
  #895
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Oh man, the Rocco doubters...we shall see! Hope we all hope I haven't "Rocco Rules" overrated like MR
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It's not doubters though! Rocco is expendable solely on the grounds that if you want to acquire a talent like Patrick Sharp who puts up 25-40 goals, you MUST be willing to give up good talent.
For sure. We can't assume Rocco is next St Louis like MR and I thought Markstrom would be next Rinne/King Henrik tier goalie. Rocco value might be at its HIGHEST right now... and if a package of him plus Kuli can get us a Sharp/Eberle/EKane/Yak/JVR etc the Panthers organization needs to do it.

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07-13-2014, 01:47 AM
  #896
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Can anyone explain their not keeping Bergy&Boyes with either Barkov or Bjugstad? Chemistry proven, what gives guys?
The Panthers got better forwards for the top 6, it's that simple.

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07-13-2014, 02:40 AM
  #897
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Can anyone explain their not keeping Bergy&Boyes with either Barkov or Bjugstad? Chemistry proven, what gives guys?
"chemistry" is overrated, especially when you're talking about mediocre players like Boyes and Bergy.

Remember the Fleishmann-Weiss-Versteeg line in 11-12? Dominant.

In 12-13 they were absolute, utter garbage.

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07-13-2014, 06:00 AM
  #898
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
"chemistry" is overrated, especially when you're talking about mediocre players like Boyes and Bergy.

Remember the Fleishmann-Weiss-Versteeg line in 11-12? Dominant.

In 12-13 they were absolute, utter garbage.
bergenheim isnt a 1st line winger but in what world has he ever been considered "mediocre"? he's actually played his best hockey since coming here. he's fast, gritty, hits, motors always going, playoff performer. he's the perfect 3rd line winger for any team, and he's even played tons of top-6 minutes with us and done well with it. if you meant "3rd line players" as "mediocre" then ok but i don't think thats the right word to use.

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07-13-2014, 09:03 AM
  #899
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"chemistry" is overrated, especially when you're talking about mediocre players like Boyes and Bergy.

Remember the Fleishmann-Weiss-Versteeg line in 11-12? Dominant.

In 12-13 they were absolute, utter garbage.
Versteeg played all of 10 games in 12-13 and Weiss couldn't shoot or pass properly because he stupidly waited until half way through the season to get the surgery done on his wrist rather than getting it done at the start of the lockout and being ready to start the season. There is nothing chemistry can do to fix injuries.

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07-13-2014, 10:26 AM
  #900
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Tallon didnt trade for, or sign any big offensive name, or seems like he didnt try for one either from his quotes... I think he believes that Barkov, Bjugstad, Huberdeau are meant to carry this team, and TBH, I don't think that's wrong.

Barkov has played against men since he was 16, and he looked excellent last season.

Bjugstad showed flashes of brilliance last season, and made pavel datsyuk of all players look like a clown on a highlight reel goal.

Huberdeau was a calder winner, and looked fantastic his rookie year, a full and healthy off-season should do wonders, not to mention playing for a coach he loves.

There's no reason why Tallon should not expect these players to perform and lead this team. At what point do you hold players accountable, and at what point do you not? Same goes for Gudbranson and Kulikov.

I would be much more upset with this if I didn't think the players had the talent to cope with it, but I think they do, tremendously so. I think we have a solid mix of veterans to compliment this core too.

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