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Old
03-08-2014, 02:38 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Out of curiosity who do you think these guys are?
There are probably 10 forwards who will be free agents in the offseason that could step into a top-6 role for us, easily.

Vanek
Iginla
Stastny
Vrbata
Moulson
Roy
Grabovsky
Penner
Michalek
Hemsky
Callahan
Cammalleri
Gaborik (haha)

Just to name a few ... there are plenty of options to add scoring this summer; even if a handful of those guys sign before they hit UFA, it's likely that this will be one of the better UFA crops in years. Some of those guys still have plenty of good years left in them.

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03-08-2014, 08:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
They're trying to make JK look better, but he still looks really bad so far.
Howson got us Tyutin and MacKenzie in his first year. 7 years later they're still on the team and everyone (except IHZ) happy about it. JK already wasted a bunch of assets and have nothing to show for it.
This is ridiculous. Howson made some bad moves in his early years. I think he ultimately more than made up for it, but if you're judging JK by where Howson was after a similar period of time, then you should be cutting JK some slack.

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03-08-2014, 09:04 PM
  #28
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Ridiculous is when someone calling another comment ridiculous and doesn't bring any facts. I'm looking at biggest moves to GMs made in their 1st year. One traded Zherdev for Tyutin and signed a guy who's been playing for the Jackets for 7 years. Another... what did he do? Horton is the best at taking penalties, Gaborik is gone for nothing and Boll is gonna make almost 2 mil. per year. What is your favorite move out of those three?

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03-08-2014, 09:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
There are probably 10 forwards who will be free agents in the offseason that could step into a top-6 role for us, easily.

Vanek
Iginla
Stastny
Vrbata
Moulson
Roy
Grabovsky
Penner
Michalek
Hemsky
Callahan
Cammalleri
Gaborik (haha)

Just to name a few ... there are plenty of options to add scoring this summer; even if a handful of those guys sign before they hit UFA, it's likely that this will be one of the better UFA crops in years. Some of those guys still have plenty of good years left in them.
This comment would be just as relevant had Gaborik played out the string with the CBJ

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03-08-2014, 09:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Ridiculous is when someone calling another comment ridiculous and doesn't bring any facts. I'm looking at biggest moves to GMs made in their 1st year. One traded Zherdev for Tyutin and signed a guy who's been playing for the Jackets for 7 years. Another... what did he do? Horton is the best at taking penalties, Gaborik is gone for nothing and Boll is gonna make almost 2 mil. per year. What is your favorite move out of those three?
Yeah I don't think JK has had a great first year, with some very visible mistakes. I'm saying it takes a long time to assess a GM, which is really one of the main lessons from the Howson era. And these comparisons can be rather silly, are you going to say that JK is better if he drafts a player in this next draft that has a longer career than Filatov (Howson's second draft)?

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Old
03-08-2014, 10:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
This comment would be just as relevant had Gaborik played out the string with the CBJ
Sure ... all the more reason to not be upset by the trade, in my opinion.

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Old
03-08-2014, 10:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by major major View Post
Yeah I don't think JK has had a great first year, with some very visible mistakes. I'm saying it takes a long time to assess a GM, which is really one of the main lessons from the Howson era.
THIS. So very this. You get a cookie.



As much as I enjoy the fact that folks are finally starting to see what I (and a few others) saw in Howson all those years, it seems like the greater lesson of avoiding jumping to premature conclusions continues to be elusive.

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Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
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03-08-2014, 11:07 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
They're trying to make JK look better, but he still looks really bad so far.
Howson got us Tyutin and MacKenzie in his first year. 7 years later they're still on the team and everyone (except IHZ) happy about it. JK already wasted a bunch of assets and have nothing to show for it.
It was Hejda in 2007, not Tyutin. Tyutin was in 2008.

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Old
03-08-2014, 11:13 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
T
As much as I enjoy the fact that folks are finally starting to see what I (and a few others) saw in Howson all those years, it seems like the greater lesson of avoiding jumping to premature conclusions continues to be elusive.
Folks? I was Howson's supporter since day one to... forever. I really skeptical when he was fired.
The problem is I don't see in Kekkalainen something that I've seen in Howson. There's no way you can compare any of the Kekkalainen's moves to the Howson's trades and signings. Howson got Hejda and Mac for nothing, he's got Umberger for Coloradan, he's got Tyutin for Zherdev. All of that in his 1st year.
Which JK's signing or trade could be compared to those moves in the future? What good he's done to this franchise in his 1st year? He's running this franchise on Howson's fuel.

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03-08-2014, 11:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
It was Hejda in 2007, not Tyutin. Tyutin was in 2008.
Didn't see your post...
OK, Howson was named the Jackets GM on June 15, 2007. Z was traded for Toots on July 2, 2008. JK running this team for .. more than a year and 2 weeks. I mean, it doesn't even matter. I just don't like what JK has been doing so far.

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03-09-2014, 12:12 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Didn't see your post...
OK, Howson was named the Jackets GM on June 15, 2007. Z was traded for Toots on July 2, 2008. JK running this team for .. more than a year and 2 weeks. I mean, it doesn't even matter. I just don't like what JK has been doing so far.
That's fine; you're allowed to feel that way and there are others who are similarly skeptical. Howson made moves in his first year-plus that paid immediate dividends, and we haven't seen that under the current regime. That part is factually true.

My argument would be that the nature of the job in 2007 versus 2013 is the reason for that. There were more gaping holes at every position and of every type in 2007; that wasn't the case in 2013. Someone like Hejda could be signed and step right into the lineup, while a similar darkhorse signing last year would likely be buried in the AHL. For all we know, Ilari Melart is the Finnish Jan Hejda, and he'll never get the chance to show it because of the depth ahead of him. That's absolutely a credit to Howson, but in no way is that a critique of Kekalainen.

Keep in mind that Viqsi and I were possibly the last two holdouts, and for over a year I had a user title of "The Last Howsonite".

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Old
03-09-2014, 03:00 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
Ridiculous is when someone calling another comment ridiculous and doesn't bring any facts. I'm looking at biggest moves to GMs made in their 1st year. One traded Zherdev for Tyutin and signed a guy who's been playing for the Jackets for 7 years. Another... what did he do? Horton is the best at taking penalties, Gaborik is gone for nothing and Boll is gonna make almost 2 mil. per year. What is your favorite move out of those three?
To be fair, when we signed Horton, a lot of us were pumped. But when he starts to struggle then all of a sudden, it's "Horton sucks" and "Jarmo is dumb for handing out that massive contract". As for Boll, wasn't Howson a fan of his as well? If he was around, I could see Howson giving Boll a new contract as well. The question is, for how much.

I think you(a long with some others) will be pissed off more when UFA begins Reason being, I think they're going to go after Callahan and give him a big contract. When rumors of us being interested surfaced, a lot of you guys didn't want him, especially for the price that he was demanding. But maybe my feeling is off and we don't go after him at all. Time well tell.

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03-09-2014, 09:06 AM
  #38
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Before we anoint Howson to sainthood and condemn Jarmo to GM hell let's remember that Howson had some stinkers along the way too.

The thing I like about Jarmo is his willingness to make a trade like the 3 fer Gabby; it didn't work out but it could have been a blockbuster. I don't think Howson would have ever considered it. What I don't like in what I see of Jarmo is his penchant for accumulating 3rd and 4th line gritty guys.

And i think he could have made a bigger splash at the deadline than he did.

One other thing about Jarmo is I think he has a vision of the kind of team he wants to see in Columbus and drafts/trades/signs accordingly. I'm not sure Howson had a vision but then again he had Mike Priest looking over his shoulder and perhaps calling more shots than we realized.

Time will be the ultimate arbiter of both.

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Old
03-09-2014, 09:13 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
As much as I enjoy the fact that folks are finally starting to see what I (and a few others) saw in Howson all those years, it seems like the greater lesson of avoiding jumping to premature conclusions continues to be elusive.
Nothing has changed. Pretty good drafting; not so good with roster decisions.

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Old
03-09-2014, 09:13 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Before we anoint Howson to sainthood and condemn Jarmo to GM hell let's remember that Howson had some stinkers along the way too.

The thing I like about Jarmo is his willingness to make a trade like the 3 fer Gabby; it didn't work out but it could have been a blockbuster. I don't think Howson would have ever considered it. What I don't like in what I see of Jarmo is his penchant for accumulating 3rd and 4th line gritty guys.

And i think he could have made a bigger splash at the deadline than he did.

One other thing about Jarmo is I think he has a vision of the kind of team he wants to see in Columbus and drafts/trades/signs accordingly. I'm not sure Howson had a vision but then again he had Mike Priest looking over his shoulder and perhaps calling more shots than we realized.

Time will be the ultimate arbiter of both.
I actually count that one as advantage Jarmo. His overabundance of Tropp's and Skille's is easily better than Colton Gillies. Of course, D-Mac and Letestu are the real anchors of the 4th line, so it's still way too early to isolate Jarmo's contribution.

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Old
03-09-2014, 12:32 PM
  #41
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Are we really debating Scott Howson and Jarmo Kekalainen again?

Alright ... my only input on the subject:

Along with MB and Viqsi, I also consider myself a big Howson supporter. The team that was here when Scott Howson left, vs the team that was here when Doug MacLean left, was much, much better. There were actually viable NHL players and assets, and the team seemed to be building in the right direction.

The reason I'm good with the hiring of Jarmo is because, Howson had a chance to make this team competitive - six years, in fact - and hadn't done it. Do I think that means he should have been fired? Not necessarily; but I definitely think that the fan support for him was gone, and it was JD's duty to restore fan support during the rebuild.

I think Howson would be competent at building this team from the ground up, if given the chance. With players like Johansen and Murray, it's clear that he knew how to draft far better than MacLean ever did. But, the fans (lets face it, the majority of them) wanted someone's head for the team failing again, and it had to be Howson. Jarmo is here to take chances and build a winner in a quick turn-around, which is exactly what he's setting out to do. Like him or not, until the franchise has to start over again, he's going to be the guy.

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Old
03-09-2014, 12:38 PM
  #42
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I don't criticize the Horton signing too much for the same reason I don't criticize the Filatov drafting too much, which is that when the team goes and gets what are consensus strong pieces then I think it's tough to blame them when the consensus turns out to be wrong. Filatov was very highly regarded when he was drafted, and Horton was the cream of the FA crop. I'm not comparing those two as players, I'm looking at both as roster activity. And not all criticism is suspended, because you do pay guys to disregard consensus and evaluate character, in Filatov's case. My concern with Horton is that he's got the zoo and everything else he wanted so maybe he's lost some hunger, but really I think it's still a matter of his rounding back into form and should we make the playoffs he's contribute, and I think he'll contribute next year.

Evidently you have to be outspoken, relentless, even a little obnoxious and snarky to get consideration into MB and Viqsi's (not actually) last two pro-Howson posters club. Be that as is it may, and as much as Jarmo has frustrated me (see: Vinny Prospal), he needs longer to be evaluated. The Gaborik deal last year was something I liked; the trade deadline this year has the potential to ruin the season. I don't understand the thinking, or the whitewash it's getting around here. But he got Bob signed, got the top Free Agent signed, and even though this roster is still the roster that Howson built, I don't completely discount the effect of his personality on it. I'm also encouraged that they have stuck with Richards even though he wasn't a JK/JD hire.

Sorry for a long post

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03-09-2014, 12:43 PM
  #43
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[QUOTE=Sore Loser;81390991]Are we really debating Scott Howson and Jarmo Kekalainen again?


The reason I'm good with the hiring of Jarmo is because, Howson had a chance to make this team competitive - six years, in fact - and hadn't done it. Do I think that means he should have been fired? Not necessarily; but I definitely think that the fan support for him was gone, and it was JD's duty to restore fan support during the rebuild.
/QUOTE]

As far as the bolded, that's true as far as it goes, but it's worth noting that Kekalainen is insulated in a way that Howson never was, and Howson was impeded (Priest) in a way that Kekalained doesn't appear to be. My feeling is that if JK were an island unto himself (hockey-wise) in the organization in the same way that Howson was, he would perform no better than Howson did in those 6 years.

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03-09-2014, 02:06 PM
  #44
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Oh what the heck - after watching today's game I still think Howson screwed up the 2009 draft by trading the 16th pick for a bunch of stuff that wound up being 21st & John Moore instead of taking Chris Kreider at 16. (threw in my own emoticons to save time for everyone)

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03-09-2014, 02:53 PM
  #45
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I wish we could put to bed what Howson is/was.

He was a decent GM with bad luck. You either gotta be very good or very lucky in order to persist for a long time in any one position. He made a number of moves that, on paper, made sense and should have turned out better (trading for Carter, drafting Filatov). As a fully fleshed out example, Howson sticking by Mason stands out. Mason won the Calder and was a Vezina finalist. You gotta stick by a player right after such accomplishments. Further, his staff and his goaltending coaches kept telling Howson that Mason "has it" and just had to work out a few issues. Now, in Philadelphia, it turns out the staff was right. Mason CAN be a decent starter, and the onus for his failure in Columbus falls squarely on his own shoulders. Any betting man in that situation would be correct in sticking with Mason for as long as he did, it just turns out that the situation was unlucky.

Howson shouldn't be lambasted for the moves he made, but he should be criticized for the moves he didn't make. While those potential moves will likely never be known to us, he successfully built a strong foundation for a team on the cusp of making the playoffs, but he didn't put them over the hump and create a fully competitive team. It's now Jarmo's job to do such a thing. And let us not forget that Jarmo is now dealing with a rash of injuries that no GM should be expecting; injuries last year and this year to Murray, Gaborik being out 90% of his time here, Bob going down, losing Tyutin and Nikitin, etc. etc.


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03-09-2014, 08:44 PM
  #46
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Someday, we'll be having the same conversation about Todd Richards and the coach that replaces him.

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03-09-2014, 10:47 PM
  #47
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and the coach after that, and the GM after that...

I mean, it's the internet, we can't limit ourselves to *****ing about the present, we have to hold onto the past as well, right??? How else could we ever pass the time?

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03-09-2014, 11:26 PM
  #48
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Im looking at JK getting rid of brassards horrible contract,and getting a 2nd round pick..a steal imo.JD and JK are not feeling any pressure to win now at the expense of the teams future.This is a blessing for the fans long term.The teams that have a philosophy and stick with it like chicago,detroit,san jose,la,anaheim..they get a certain type player and then when they are in contention they can add a rental to perhaps help win it all..like a hossa,etc.but the base of their team is home grown for the most part.detroit has some 2nd rounders that turned out better than howsons 1st rounders

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03-10-2014, 08:02 AM
  #49
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Gaborik stat of the night - 23 shifts with 19 minutes of play and only 2 shots on goal. Still a -1 for LA. LA had 50 shots on goal in a 4-2 win over Edmonton.

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03-10-2014, 12:23 PM
  #50
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Gaborik stat of the night - 23 shifts with 19 minutes of play and only 2 shots on goal. Still a -1 for LA. LA had 50 shots on goal in a 4-2 win over Edmonton.
He's even. And LA scored on the PP with Gaborik on the ice. The puck was deflected off goalie to Carter's right skate, then to the left and went in.

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