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Brian Gionta (negotiations w/Habs are underway)

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Old
06-11-2014, 01:07 PM
  #501
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We don't need serviceable we need an upgrade. Whether it's long term by giving Bournival/Ghetto a shot or signing/trading for someone we can't just say we're happy with the way the team is now.

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06-11-2014, 01:08 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
We don't need serviceable we need an upgrade. Whether it's long term by giving Bournival/Ghetto a shot or signing/trading for someone we can't just say we're happy with the way the team is now.
Well sure, then suggest an upgrade that we can attain. I don't think you're being serious in suggesting Bournival/ghetto as being better than what Gionta can produce. 30-40ish points playing toughest matchups, sorry but neither will come close. And I'm a big ghetto/bourni fan.

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06-11-2014, 01:12 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...I disagree...as a few here have stated, Gionta's not the defensive player he once was anymore, either...guys like Bournival, Prust, Moen and Weise need to step up, yes, but they aren't any worse than Gionta is now...his heart may still be there, but his body just can't do it anymore...he looks done...
Look at how Eller instantly revived when given Gionta as a winger. The likes of Prust (who had an awful season nobody seems to want to talk about), Moen and Weise arent`t near to the same level of player. If Montreal wants to be a good team, those kind of players have to stay down on the 4th line.

Gionta doesn`t have any flash anymore and is on a serious decline. But he gets the puck moving in the right direction in the way you`d want from good top nine depth.

Play Eller with Prust or Moen or Weise as his RW, the third line will get its butt handed to it all year, much as it did during Eller`s dark period in the mid-season. Have a Gionta or Gionta equalivant there and maybe they can make some headway. And that serious 3rd line winger would probably end up costing 3ish million in free agency anyway, so you might as well keep the guy you have if he`s willing to get paid that amount.

If you want to upgrade, its done by finding a guy who can play the role Vanek did and pushing Gallagher down to number 2 on the depth chart.

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06-11-2014, 01:14 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
They're all very clearly worse players.

Some of you are going to have to start bringing some real arguments to the table because all evidence points to Gionta still being a very serviceable 3rd liner.
...as opposed to the one you brought, which is what eveidence, exactly??...



...we all watched him fade to pretty much nothing during the last weeks of the regular season...we all watched him be completely ineffective at either end of the ice the entire playoffs...why would we keep him when we have players that can be just as effective on the 3rd & 4th lines...do you want to see Gionta on Pleks wing again this year??...

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06-11-2014, 01:20 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Well sure, then suggest an upgrade that we can attain. I don't think you're being serious in suggesting Bournival/ghetto as being better than what Gionta can produce. 30-40ish points playing toughest matchups, sorry but neither will come close. And I'm a big ghetto/bourni fan.
...Troy Brouwer...for Gorges or Emelin, since we're heavy on LD and need to make some room for Tinordi & Beaulieu...done...

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06-11-2014, 01:27 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...Troy Brouwer...for Gorges or Emelin, since we're heavy on LD and need to make some room for Tinordi & Beaulieu...done...
So your solution is to give up either gorges or emelin, two assets holding value at completely different ends of the defensive spectrum, for a player who is pretty much giving his team exactly what Gionta is, despite being 6 years younger. On his career year. At 28 years old.


yeah... no.

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06-11-2014, 01:32 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
So your solution is to give up either gorges or emelin, two assets holding value at completely different ends of the defensive spectrum, for a player who is pretty much giving his team exactly what Gionta is, despite being 6 years younger. On his career year. At 28 years old.


yeah... no.
...if you seriously can't see Brouwer as an upgrade on Gionta, there's not much sense in us continuing this discussion...

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06-11-2014, 01:39 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...if you seriously can't see Brouwer as an upgrade on Gionta, there's not much sense in us continuing this discussion...
Oh, I forgot. Brouwer is bigger and gritty. His intangiScore rating makes up for the fact that he doesn't play tougher minutes than Gionta and doesn't, historically speaking, produce more than him at even strength. But yeah, Brouwer is lightyears ahead

And on top of that, in your scenario, you're giving away an asset to acquire a piece you already have and are letting go for free. A trade you have no idea the other team actually wants to make, while offering up our best DFD in the process.

Flawless plan.

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06-11-2014, 02:00 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Oh, I forgot. Brouwer is bigger and gritty. His intangiScore rating makes up for the fact that he doesn't play tougher minutes than Gionta and doesn't, historically speaking, produce more than him at even strength. But yeah, Brouwer is lightyears ahead

And on top of that, in your scenario, you're giving away an asset to acquire a piece you already have and are letting go for free. A trade you have no idea the other team actually wants to make, while offering up our best DFD in the process.

Flawless plan.
...no, I'm just not limiting myself to thinking about an off-season plan as separate entity trades, since we're trying to make the team as a whole better...in my opinion, we need to move an Emelin/Gorges as we're stocked on LD for the foreseeable future and, if anything, need a top 4 RD (a Luke Schenn or Johnny Boychuk-type, imo)...we need 2 Top 9 RWers and I personally don't feel Gionta gets it done anymore (hence my Troy Brouwer proposal, which has been thrown around by Caps & Habs fans alike here for some time)...we'll soon need to make a decision on what centres to keep going forward, as Galchenyuk's time to be moved to the C position quickly apporaches...etc, etc...we need to start planning for the future, as it's soon to be upon us...Gionta isn't our future...Brouwer, right now, would be a better alternative...Gionta was great in his day...that day's over, put it to bed...

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06-11-2014, 02:05 PM
  #510
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It's evident that Gionta will be back. I just hope it's for a huge reduction in salary and with a much smaller role.

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06-11-2014, 02:05 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...no, I'm just not limiting myself to thinking about an off-season plan as separate entity trades, since we're trying to make the team as a whole better...in my opinion, we need to move an Emelin/Gorges as we're stocked on LD for the foreseeable future and, if anything, need a top 4 RD (a Luke Schenn or Johnny Boychuk-type, imo)...we need 2 Top 9 RWers and I personally don't feel Gionta gets it done anymore (hence my Troy Brouwer proposal, which has been thrown around by Caps & Habs fans alike here for some time)...we'll soon need to make a decision on what centres to keep going forward, as Galchenyuk's time to be moved to the C position quickly apporaches...etc, etc...we need to start planning for the future, as it's soon to be upon us...Gionta isn't our future...Brouwer, right now, would be a better alternative...Gionta was great in his day...that day's over, put it to bed...
Again, by next season Brouwer may very well be the better player, but Mr. I scored over 40 points once in my career will be no big upgrade. He'll give us pretty much what Gionta gave us last year. Moving in Brouwer for Gionta pretty much depends on Gionta regressing even more next year and Brouwer continuing to put up production in line with his CAREER YEAR. He also played against secondary toughs, like Eller/bourque, unlike Gionta, who almost always plays against the best of the best. So expect brouwer's totals to drop even further if given Gionta's role.

So you're effectively trading a piece of our defensive core for status quo. I won't even get into how Emelin/Gorges are not even close in terms of value to this team, so using them interchangeably in trade proposals is ridiculous.

Luke Schenn and boychuk for our top 4 is facepalm worthy. please just stop.

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06-11-2014, 02:06 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by malton View Post
It's evident that Gionta will be back. I just hope it's for a huge reduction in salary and with a much smaller role.
If he comes back as a captain, I doubt he'll have a lesser role in terms of ice time. MT's hold on the room is via Gionta and Gorges.

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06-11-2014, 02:40 PM
  #513
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In the end, we should try to fix what needs to be fixed first and then look for answers as we're progressing.

So what is the most pressing needs? Leadership? Top 6 scoring? More grit? Bigger? Faster? And what we could be more easily obtained through UFA? Or trades? Shouldn'T you be able to get leaders after July 1st if you feel that you are awfully too young? Wouldn't there be a Dominic Moore waiting to be picked? That you not only bring vet presence but also some speed in the process? By using a contract and a spot on a Gionta, you are not using it on a more pressing need. Of course, you could always trade 4 guys for 2 other guys...but it's not like it's happening every day.

By signing a Gionta prior to July 1st, Bergevin establishes that the guy IS a need. You CANNOT let him go and cannot take the risk to lose him. And I just don'T see it. It might be a nice filler if nothing else happens.....but that comes AFTER July 1st.

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06-11-2014, 02:45 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Again, by next season Brouwer may very well be the better player, but Mr. I scored over 40 points once in my career will be no big upgrade. He'll give us pretty much what Gionta gave us last year. Moving in Brouwer for Gionta pretty much depends on Gionta regressing even more next year and Brouwer continuing to put up production in line with his CAREER YEAR. He also played against secondary toughs, like Eller/bourque, unlike Gionta, who almost always plays against the best of the best. So expect brouwer's totals to drop even further if given Gionta's role.

So you're effectively trading a piece of our defensive core for status quo. I won't even get into how Emelin/Gorges are not even close in terms of value to this team, so using them interchangeably in trade proposals is ridiculous.

Luke Schenn and boychuk for our top 4 is facepalm worthy. please just stop.
...can't see the forest through the trees, eh??...and here I thought you were a better talent evaluator than that...to improve, we need to get away from the old guard once they've outlived their usefullness...to improve, we need to give our young up & coming guys a chance...to improve, we need to think towards the future, not keep harkening back to some "glorious past" that wasn't really that glorious to begin with and is long over...(add another uplifting buzzline here)...(and here)...etc...


...I don't agree with your evaluation of Gionta (or Emelin, for that matter) & Brouwer...you don't agree with mine...that's fine, we'd probably agree that there's no sense discussing this further then...

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06-11-2014, 02:47 PM
  #515
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...oh, and just for the record, I may be in the minority, but I'd take Luke Schenn for this team over Alexei Emelin all day...

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06-11-2014, 03:12 PM
  #516
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On the flip side, Montreal and NYR both got to the semi finals, beating bigger teams(TB Pit Phi Bos) to get there. Chicago is one of the smaller teams and they have won 2 cups in the past 4 years.

Equating LA with having to assemble a team of giants is not living in the real world. Having Mitchel Greene King at 220lbs plus is useless if you don't have a great goalie in Quick, a great d-man in Doughty and guys that score in Williams Kopitar and Gaborik.

To put it in perslective, LA has size to complement their best players, not to be the dominant force on their team. Plus, their way is but one way to win a cup, not the only way. You can say the same for goaltending, LA and Boston win with their goalie being their best player a lot of nights, while Chicago, Detroit and Pittsburgh have won cups with goaltending that was average to slightly above average.

Looking at one cup winner and trying to solely copy that team is dumb in my opinion.
been to the stanley cup finals two of the last three years and won, last year lost to Chicago in the finals. Look at the Rangers against the Kings and tell me how a habs team would be able to compete? We played LA two times this year and looked horrible both games. they either have better players or a better coach or both. My point is why resign a guy that is on the small side when we already have DD, Briere, Gallagher and Plecanec signed for next year. Time to turn the page on the Gainey errors and sign bigger, faster younger players.

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06-11-2014, 03:22 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...can't see the forest through the trees, eh??...and here I thought you were a better talent evaluator than that...to improve, we need to get away from the old guard once they've outlived their usefullness...to improve, we need to give our young up & coming guys a chance...to improve, we need to think towards the future, not keep harkening back to some "glorious past" that wasn't really that glorious to begin with and is long over...(add another uplifting buzzline here)...(and here)...etc...


...I don't agree with your evaluation of Gionta (or Emelin, for that matter) & Brouwer...you don't agree with mine...that's fine, we'd probably agree that there's no sense discussing this further then...
What the **** are you talking about? A paragraph of nothing. Glorious past? Old guard? Earth to lurch, nobody mentioned any of this garbage. We're talking about gionta vs. brouwer. Please stay on topic.

You don't agree but you don't bring any actual arguments to the table. What does Brouwer do that's so much better? Does he prevent more goals against? Nope. Does he score more points? Last year, slightly. before that? Not really. Does brouwer play against better players? Not at all. You haven't named one thing he does better that actually matters.

If you think Luke Schenn is effective at anything, you've already outed yourself.

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06-11-2014, 03:28 PM
  #518
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this is so frustrating, we don't need gionta he brings almost nothing to the table

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06-11-2014, 03:36 PM
  #519
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To quote the Godfather : "Just went I thought I was out, they pull me back in"

Get rid of Gionta FFS...

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06-11-2014, 03:54 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
What the **** are you talking about? A paragraph of nothing. Glorious past? Old guard? Earth to lurch, nobody mentioned any of this garbage. We're talking about gionta vs. brouwer. Please stay on topic.

You don't agree but you don't bring any actual arguments to the table. What does Brouwer do that's so much better? Does he prevent more goals against? Nope. Does he score more points? Last year, slightly. before that? Not really. Does brouwer play against better players? Not at all. You haven't named one thing he does better that actually matters.

If you think Luke Schenn is effective at anything, you've already outed yourself.
You know, you're right.

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06-11-2014, 03:58 PM
  #521
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You know, you're right.
What's this -- another of your posts that's going to end up in the Mod's tagline?

Panderer.

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06-11-2014, 05:03 PM
  #522
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Everyone is pretty much in agreement Gio is a good 2-way 3rd liner at this point in his career so once his minutes get dropped he'll be a 25-30 pt guy at best, yet he'll no doubt still want to be paid $3.5MM and leaves us with a weak link on the cycle and inability for MT to do whatever he wants with the lines

Surely Bournival who brings a little more size can fill that role or someone from outside that won't cost us much - we still need to find a #1 RW but that's not to replace Brian cause regardless if he stays or goes he's not that guy anymore

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06-11-2014, 05:18 PM
  #523
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Everyone is pretty much in agreement Gio is a good 2-way 3rd liner at this point in his career so once his minutes get dropped he'll be a 25-30 pt guy at best, yet he'll no doubt still want to be paid $3.5MM and leaves us with a weak link on the cycle and inability for MT to do whatever he wants with the lines

Surely Bournival who brings a little more size can fill that role or someone from outside that won't cost us much - we still need to find a #1 RW but that's not to replace Brian cause regardless if he stays or goes he's not that guy anymore
Bournival is a sensible option for the 3rd line LW. They still need somebody for the right side (and Bourque and the current 4th liners are bad options).

If they are hurting for space, the deadwood to clear are Bourque, Briere, Prust and Moen, none of who are good options for Montreal`s top nine as currently constituted.

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06-11-2014, 05:24 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Bournival is a sensible option for the 3rd line LW. They still need somebody for the right side (and Bourque and the current 4th liners are bad options).

If they are hurting for space, the deadwood to clear are Bourque, Briere, Prust and Moen, none of who are good options for Montreal`s top nine as currently constituted.
Prust has market value, but by the same token, who steps up to do his job? Prust saves the Habs from rostering a pugilist with lesser hockey skills. Prust can still be serviceable on the PK and is one of the few Habs to step in when the opposition takes liberties.

Moen won't be that difficult to move, his contract is friendly. The other two, not so sure -- we may be stuck with them.

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06-11-2014, 05:26 PM
  #525
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Just like I said in a thread I made earlier this season, I'd be willing to take him back for half his cap hit on a 1 to 2 years contract.

Sure, his skills may have evaporated as he aged, but he's still a serviceable two-way winger that can chip in 15-20 goals a season while bringing good leadership. On a third line, for the cap hit of a Brandon Prust, or as depth in case on injury, I think that's a good signing.

Especially considering the imminent departure of Vanek, which we may not be able to replace via the FA market, we might have to bring in someone like Andrighetto from the minors in an offensive role. Our wingers will be weaker next year than they were this year, no need to let one of our middle 6 and captain to boot walk if there's still room for him on the team... The key word here being IF there's still room. Obviously, Bergevin might find an alternative via a trade or on the FA market that will make Gionta expendable, but until then, I think it's only logical for him to consider resigning Gio.

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