HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Brian Gionta (negotiations w/Habs are underway)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-12-2014, 08:48 AM
  #551
odishabs
Registered User
 
odishabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,057
vCash: 500
I bring back Gionta for 1 year 3 mil or I want him gone. Also Briere is a goner if he comes back and Gio slips to 3rd line, bring in Somebody to play alongside Galchenyuk and Plekanec

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Gallagher

Galchenyuk - Plekanec - UFA

Bourque - Eller - Gionta

odishabs is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:58 AM
  #552
rockjngo
Registered User
 
rockjngo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,531
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Once again, the blind obsession with size strikes. At the right cap hit, Gionta is still an efficive player and great example to have around the kids and as a leader.

I'm not saying he should 100% be back, but to just say "let him walk" without finding a better alternative is dumb.


-size check - (the 3 amigos Gionta, Desharnais and Briere was in affective in the playoffs, too small, out muscled)
-cap hit check - (Gionta is taking up room, we need to resign Subban and Eller)
-effective player check - (well if you consider 1 goal in 17 playoff games yes the one he scored against tampa when we were already up 3-1 is effective and great example for the likes of Galchenyuk and Gallagher)

-as long as Gionta is here, he's taking up cap space and roster spot so we won't see any young players develop like we did 2 years ago when Galchenyuk and Gallagher made the team. We already have plenty of leaders in the locker room, Plekanec, Gorges, Subban, Price.

rockjngo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 09:21 AM
  #553
Andrighetto Fabolous
Ghetto
 
Andrighetto Fabolous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,844
vCash: 500
Before I was totally against Gionta back but I think if we bring him back for like $2.5 -3 million it wouldn't be horrible. Limit his minutes to 13-15 minutes a game compared to 18 last year and don't put him on the PP and he'd be fine on our third line.

I still think Kulemin would be a great pickup for our third line, put Kulemin and Gionta with Eller and Plekanec and it'd be a solid line at both ends of the ice.

Andrighetto Fabolous is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 09:25 AM
  #554
WhiskeySeven
Pretty big member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,910
vCash: 500
Gionta has no power - not in his shot, not in his body, not in his skating.

He's not a floater but he's definitely not the guy who drives a play.

The kings have one player under 6' in their forwards - Mike Richards. We have how many?

How can a smurf with limited talent on either end of the ice possibly be good to keep? How is he irreplaceable?

He just brings down Pleks' production (forcing them to be a defacto 3rd/turd line) and scores once in 20+ playoff games.

Unacceptable. Get someone better, or better yet, keep Vanek. He showed up just as much as Gionta did, much more I'd say.

WhiskeySeven is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 09:46 AM
  #555
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I'm not saying he should 100% be back, but to just say "let him walk" without finding a better alternative is dumb.
The alternative is taking the money we'd give him and try to find something more appealing on the UFA market.

Given what i saw from Gionta last year, especially in the playoffs (ie. not much), that's a risk i'd be willing to take.

Patty Roy is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 09:54 AM
  #556
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
As much as Bergevin has made positive moves, he's continued to define the team with smallish players by granting a long-term deal to DD and adding Brière and Bouillon. There is no blaming a past administration.

If there weren't already so many smallish players on the team, you could probably absorb the signing of a Gionta. But now, it's becoming laughable. We seem to be a forever repository of the vertically-challenged. I have never seen a team be successful with this kind of recipe. What will it take.

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:00 AM
  #557
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
-size check - (the 3 amigos Gionta, Desharnais and Briere was in affective in the playoffs, too small, out muscled)
-cap hit check - (Gionta is taking up room, we need to resign Subban and Eller)
-effective player check - (well if you consider 1 goal in 17 playoff games yes the one he scored against tampa when we were already up 3-1 is effective and great example for the likes of Galchenyuk and Gallagher)

-as long as Gionta is here, he's taking up cap space and roster spot so we won't see any young players develop like we did 2 years ago when Galchenyuk and Gallagher made the team. We already have plenty of leaders in the locker room, Plekanec, Gorges, Subban, Price.
where are these players exactly? Which young player is going to be a 20 goal scorer playing defensive minutes? Name someone. Leblanc? Thomas? Laughable.

Agnostic is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:03 AM
  #558
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
As much as Bergevin has made positive moves, he's continued to define the team with smallish players by granting a long-term deal to DD and adding Brière and Bouillon. There is no blaming a past administration.

If there weren't already so many smallish players on the team, you could probably absorb the signing of a Gionta. But now, it's becoming laughable. We seem to be a forever repository of the vertically-challenged. I have never seen a team be successful with this kind of recipe. What will it take.
I think MB knows we have to get bigger, so we have to see a couple of the smaller guys leave the team, via trade etc but it sounds like Gio could very well be back, which means DD or Briere have to be gone...they have to...everyone knows we need to change our size, so......the next few weeks are going to be very interesting.

BLONG7 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:11 AM
  #559
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
As much as Bergevin has made positive moves, he's continued to define the team with smallish players by granting a long-term deal to DD and adding Brière and Bouillon. There is no blaming a past administration.

If there weren't already so many smallish players on the team, you could probably absorb the signing of a Gionta. But now, it's becoming laughable. We seem to be a forever repository of the vertically-challenged. I have never seen a team be successful with this kind of recipe. What will it take.
The past 2 drafts are filled with big guys that can play. That's where the size needs to come from.

For the Briere and Bouillon signing, there are also the Weise Prust Murray Parros additions.

Monctonscout is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:14 AM
  #560
Lions999
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,073
vCash: 500
If it's true about talking to gionta about a new contract that's one thing MB is bad at. He needs to take care of other players before Gionta, he should be one of our last priorities.

Lions999 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:17 AM
  #561
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 34,024
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lions999 View Post
If it's true about talking to gionta about a new contract that's one thing MB is bad at. He needs to take care of other players before Gionta, he should be one of our last priorities.
Agreed in terms of talent but UFA are priority over RFA at this point

So if they want back badly Markov and Gionta they will be signed before PK and Eller

Habs 4 Life is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:18 AM
  #562
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lions999 View Post
If it's true about talking to gionta about a new contract that's one thing MB is bad at. He needs to take care of other players before Gionta, he should be one of our last priorities.
Negotiations would be concurrent and all situations have to be taken care of in the month of June, so it makes no difference the order. If he signs Gionta first it gives no indication the other contracts are less important only that there's less contention in the Gionta deal.

Agnostic is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:24 AM
  #563
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
The past 2 drafts are filled with big guys that can play. That's where the size needs to come from.

For the Briere and Bouillon signing, there are also the Weise Prust Murray Parros additions.
Draft picks take time to develop. You may be looking at 2-3 years before they make it and it's not even assured.

While I can see the merit of a Weise or Prust, players like Murray and Parros are not synonymous with skill. I meant vying for bigger but skilled players, not pylons.

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:26 AM
  #564
Raimu
Registered User
 
Raimu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
As much as Bergevin has made positive moves, he's continued to define the team with smallish players by granting a long-term deal to DD and adding Brière and Bouillon. There is no blaming a past administration.

If there weren't already so many smallish players on the team, you could probably absorb the signing of a Gionta. But now, it's becoming laughable. We seem to be a forever repository of the vertically-challenged. I have never seen a team be successful with this kind of recipe. What will it take.
What's laughable is the imbecilic obsession with size the HF Habs boards have.

Gio still plays valuable minutes on the PK and is a serviceable 3rd line guy at this point. He's probably going to end up being cheaper than anyone else we can find to fill that role.

I don't know who you expect to replace him, but if its going to cost more in terms of cap space, or in terms of assets if you make a trade, then I don't see that as being very smart asset management.

As for perpetuating being a small team, we're addressing that through the draft in case you haven't noticed. McCarron, and De La Rose are both big players. You can counter that with the fact we'vee also drafted guys like Martin Reway and Sven Andrighetto, but both were later picks.

Raimu is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:31 AM
  #565
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Draft picks take time to develop. You may be looking at 2-3 years before they make it and it's not even assured.

While I can see the merit of a Weise or Prust, players like Murray and Parros are not synonymous with skill. I meant vying for bigger but skilled players, not pylons.
Big guys with skill that compete...those guys are rarely available, and when they are they cost a ton...hence delopping your own.

Monctonscout is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:43 AM
  #566
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimu View Post
What's laughable is the imbecilic obsession with size the HF Habs boards have.
What's truly laughable is the "imbecillic" obsession that some have about building a diminutive team in a contact sport.

Quote:
Gio still plays valuable minutes on the PK and is a serviceable 3rd line guy at this point. He's probably going to end up being cheaper than anyone else we can find to fill that role.
I don't know that he wouldn't be a fit in a third line capacity and on the PK. However, Therrien has shown a propensity to overuse him -- why would that change now. Plus, we don't know how "cheap" he'll be.

Quote:
I don't know who you expect to replace him, but if its going to cost more in terms of cap space, or in terms of assets if you make a trade, then I don't see that as being very smart asset management.
We're talking about a third line player on the decline. Off-ice embellishment is just as objectionable as the on-ice version.

Quote:
As for perpetuating being a small team, we're addressing that through the draft in case you haven't noticed. McCarron, and De La Rose are both big players. You can counter that with the fact we'vee also drafted guys like Martin Reway and Sven Andrighetto, but both were later picks.
And yes, everyone noticed the moar bigger players that were taken in the last draft. No one knows whether any of them will pan out. Including the diminutives. What we do know is that Bergevin had a choice when he doled out a 3-year contract to DD, a contract he'd be hard-pressed to move. Brière, a 38 year-old 4th liner signed for two years, totally indefensible. Signing Gionta given the current asset mix, is shortsighted unless follow-up trades are realized.

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:47 AM
  #567
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Big guys with skill that compete...those guys are rarely available, and when they are they cost a ton...hence delopping your own.
Up to management to find undervalued assets. There are always players other teams give up on too soon. Bergevin has surrounded himself with more than enough lackeys to do the job.

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:57 AM
  #568
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Up to management to find undervalued assets. There are always players other teams give up on too soon. Bergevin has surrounded himself with more than enough lackeys to do the job.
Hence the Weise trade. Crisp drafting etc

Monctonscout is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 10:59 AM
  #569
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Hence the Weise trade. Crisp drafting etc
Baby steps. More to be had on the trade front, if Bergevin can get another team to buy into some players that are redundant for us.

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 11:26 AM
  #570
Raimu
Registered User
 
Raimu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
What's truly laughable is the "imbecillic" obsession that some have about building a diminutive team in a contact sport.
Sweet comeback bro. I forgot the part where
A: I said that
and
B: I'm the one personally building the team.

Size is a good thing to have. It doesn't mean that Gionta is a bad player/not worth having. You still are not addressing the issue of "if not Gionta, than who?"

When your hatred hatred for "smurfs" inhibits your ability to have a rational conversation about the subject without repeatedly circling back to your same few biases, thats when it becomes a problem. But, then again, its pointless arguing with the "I hate Desharnais" club, because again, they all just circle back to their same few opinions they've convinced themselves are facts.

Let me ask you this: Who's performed better in the playoffs: St. Louis or Vanek? Who's the larger of the two? I bet your answers to these questions aren't the same.

Raimu is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 12:21 PM
  #571
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimu View Post
Sweet comeback bro. I forgot the part where
A: I said that
and
B: I'm the one personally building the team.
"Bro"? Are you posting from some tavern?


Quote:
Size is a good thing to have. It doesn't mean that Gionta is a bad player/not worth having. You still are not addressing the issue of "if not Gionta, than who?"
The gander tells the goose: "I'm not the one personally building the team".

Quote:
When your hatred hatred for "smurfs" inhibits your ability to have a rational conversation about the subject without repeatedly circling back to your same few biases, thats when it becomes a problem. But, then again, its pointless arguing with the "I hate Desharnais" club, because again, they all just circle back to their same few opinions they've convinced themselves are facts.
I don't have any hatred for anyone -- making simpleton assessments without the benefit of knowing one's past posting record, is irrational frankly. It's not a life and death situation, hatred is just not part of a banal sports conversation. It's never been about DD for me. I'm looking for a more favorable asset mix. If you want to keep DD and Brière, then adding Gionta pits us back into rostering yet another smallish team.

Quote:
Let me ask you this: Who's performed better in the playoffs: St. Louis or Vanek? Who's the larger of the two? I bet your answers to these questions aren't the same.
MSL is an elite player. Let me ask you this -- are any of DD, Brière and Gionta within his skill level? Cherry-picking MSL to make a point about size is highly irrelevant to our situation -- we don't have to choose between MSL and some other diminutive player. The team merely has to determine whether it wants to continue with a roster configuration that makes us the smallest team in the league yet again and whether that is a viable approach going forward.

By the same token, I was never arguing in favor of adding size just for the sake of it. Rostering more pylons doesn't help anyone's cause.


Last edited by Runner77: 06-12-2014 at 12:26 PM.
Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 12:32 PM
  #572
JLP
La Sainte-Flanelle
 
JLP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimu View Post
What's laughable is the imbecilic obsession with size the HF Habs boards have...
Actually, the "imbecilic obsession with size" extends to the LA Kings and the other 28 teams who are all bigger than the Habs. The NHL is a league full of nothing but imbecilic obsessive GMs, coaches, scouts, players and fans.

Personally I'd be delighted with just a regular-sized team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Big guys with skill that compete...those guys are rarely available, and when they are they cost a ton...hence delopping your own.
Can't support this idea that big guys are too expensive sop let's get small guys instead. It's like shopping at the Dollarama, basically you get what you pay for -- the market is not wrong. I do support what you said about Weise though, that was shrewd of MB, the pickup of the season for the Habs IMO. He should take Gio's spot on the 3rd RW.


Last edited by JLP: 06-12-2014 at 12:37 PM.
JLP is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 12:43 PM
  #573
Runner77
#gangstA Ghetto 58
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,668
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Actually, the "imbecilic obsession with size" extends to the LA Kings and the other 28 teams who are all bigger than the Habs. The NHL is a league full of nothing but imbecilic obsessive GMs, coaches, scouts, players and fans.
How did Bob Gainey's gamble in vying for small players when the blue line was taken out in 2005, work out?

With all due respect, the Kings own both size and skill -- a lot of big-sized players who are talented. What were we drafting while they were putting together their core? Whose business model is proving to be more sustainable? Why re-invent the wheel?

There is definitely a place for small players on every team. Do we really need to roster 5 of them or more?

Runner77 is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 12:50 PM
  #574
MoldyCakes
Fight, Troll, Score
 
MoldyCakes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland native
Country: United States
Posts: 7,619
vCash: 500
Once again, the false dilemma fallacy regarding size and other attributes strike again, with Monctonscout and newcomer Raimu propagating it once more. What is imbecilic is committing a logical fallacy AND acting like a know-it-all at the same time. It is beyond obvious that folks have implicitly wanted more big and skilled players when they talk about size.

Size is merely a prerequisite of certain tasks that involve utilizing strength, such as protecting the puck, deliver punishing body checks, and being able to absorb body checks without being stymied.

The matter with Gionta is that he is gimped 2013 Michael Frolik in terms of defense, and his offensive stats hides his ability to kill numerous offensive oppotunities. He has a ****** shot, lack of strength, and diminishing speed who will cost more than a defensively responsible grinder. 3-3.5 million is the price that one should expect for him at the very least.

MoldyCakes is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 01:33 PM
  #575
JAVO16
Registered User
 
JAVO16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
Once again, the false dilemma fallacy regarding size and other attributes strike again, with Monctonscout and newcomer Raimu propagating it once more. What is imbecilic is committing a logical fallacy AND acting like a know-it-all at the same time. It is beyond obvious that folks have implicitly wanted more big and skilled players when they talk about size.

Size is merely a prerequisite of certain tasks that involve utilizing strength, such as protecting the puck, deliver punishing body checks, and being able to absorb body checks without being stymied.

The matter with Gionta is that he is gimped 2013 Michael Frolik in terms of defense, and his offensive stats hides his ability to kill numerous offensive oppotunities. He has a ****** shot, lack of strength, and diminishing speed who will cost more than a defensively responsible grinder. 3-3.5 million is the price that one should expect for him at the very least.
Did you watch Zuccarrello protect the puck and dummy Greene most of the game yesterday ?

Do you watch Gallagher spin and jive away from defenders in the corner to attack the net all season long ?

This isn't basketball. Size isn't a prerequisite of anything. It's simply a helpful attribute that can be overcome by a myriad of other skills. All the small players that reach the NHL have defeated their size disadvantage to get there. They mostly don't get stymied by the size of their opponents past that point, but by the fact that the other skills of their opponents are greater than their own.

JAVO16 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.