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Can Goc, Stempniak solve Penguins’ depth problem?

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Old
03-12-2014, 10:31 AM
  #1
wgknestrick
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Can Goc, Stempniak solve Penguins’ depth problem?

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/can-...depth-problem/

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Old
03-12-2014, 10:37 AM
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IcedCapp
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Can they: yes

Will they: no

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Old
03-12-2014, 11:44 AM
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steveg
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Thanks, wgknestrick, for sharing the article. Well written, and logical, I thought...

...and, without even coming CLOSE to directly discussing DB, the article, without even TRYING to do so, illustrates much of what frustrates me about his lineup/line assembly. YES, some of the issues have been forced by injury, but not all of them...

Steve

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Old
03-12-2014, 11:53 AM
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Aiastelmon
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Either Glass needs to sit ala last year, or else DB needs to only use the 4th line sparingly. I don't see either happening.

I know we're not exactly a moneyball type franchise with DB at the helm, but at some point someone has to look at stats like this.

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Old
03-12-2014, 01:35 PM
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Black Label
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If they make players like Vitale sit instead of guys like Adams, Glass, Conner, Pyatt, etc. then they really aren't helping our depth as much as they could be.

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Old
03-12-2014, 01:50 PM
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Pancakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Can they: yes

Will they: no
I'd like to think they can but I don't think two players solve our entire bottom six issues as we still have 4 very crappy possession players playing with them.

But they certainly do make it leaps better than it was.

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03-12-2014, 01:56 PM
  #7
IcedCapp
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Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
I'd like to think they can but I don't think two players solve our entire bottom six issues as we still have 4 very crappy possession players playing with them.

But they certainly do make it leaps better than it was.
Well, that's what my response was aimed at.

Those two players (Goc and Stempniak) SHOULD have helped our depth by replacing the two-worst players on the team (two of Pyatt, Glass, Adams).

That would have drastically changed the look of the team. Just for example, last night would have been:

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Gibbons - Goc - Sutter (however you want these guys to line up)
Glass - Vitale - Engelland (?)

And then after Bennett came back

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Goc - Sutter
Gibbons/Glass - Vitale - Engelland

I think the team looks completely different. But that will never happen, so there's no way these acquisitions will have the impact they should.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:02 PM
  #8
Zen Arcade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
Either Glass needs to sit ala last year, or else DB needs to only use the 4th line sparingly. I don't see either happening.

I know we're not exactly a moneyball type franchise with DB at the helm, but at some point someone has to look at stats like this.
Glass has been fine, Adams needs to sit,

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:08 PM
  #9
Pancakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Well, that's what my response was aimed at.

Those two players (Goc and Stempniak) SHOULD have helped our depth by replacing the two-worst players on the team (two of Pyatt, Glass, Adams).

That would have drastically changed the look of the team. Just for example, last night would have been:

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Gibbons - Goc - Sutter (however you want these guys to line up)
Glass - Vitale - Engelland (?)

And then after Bennett came back

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Goc - Sutter
Gibbons/Glass - Vitale - Engelland

I think the team looks completely different. But that will never happen, so there's no way these acquisitions will have the impact they should.
Ideally we'd have what you got there, yeah.

I'd say this is our likely setup when Beau gets healthy:

Kunitz-Sid-Stemper
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Pyatt-Sutter-Bennett
Glass-Goc-Adams


Which is at least a tolerably decent bottom six despite the massive suckitude of Pyatt and Gladams. But you're right that it would look a helluva lot better with Vitale and Gibbons in there.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:12 PM
  #10
Ragamuffin Gunner
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No.

They are like putting tape over a hole in your boat. It'll work for a while but you know that at some point it'll fall off and you'll sink.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:14 PM
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Aiastelmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
Glass has been fine, Adams needs to sit,
Glass is awful too, and they have sat him in the past, so there may be more hope there.

This idea that Glass is having a good year or is useful is not backed up by stats or by watching him struggle out there. Lots of guys can hit. You need to find a guy who can do a few more things at an NHL level if you want to contend.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:19 PM
  #12
No Quarter
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They help.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:31 PM
  #13
steveg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
we still have 4 very crappy possession players playing with them.
This is one thing I just don't get...my impression of DB's Pens teams in the past, was that he wanted a team that could get on the forecheck and really cycle...I remember this really being a focus during the Cup year. Now, though, it seems like he's totally forgotten that. He seems completely to have forgotten the idea that good defense means, in part, a 3rd/4th line that can possess the puck for long stretches in the O-zone, through solid forechecking. WHY does he now seem to be content with players that can't possess the puck worth a crap -- as long as they are blocking shots and not giving up TOO many goals while being trapped in the D-zone...

This will NOT work in the post season...being trapped in the D-zone when playing an elite playoff team WILL kill us, and I have NO faith that DB will adjust then, any better than he is adjusting NOW...


Last edited by steveg: 03-12-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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Old
03-12-2014, 02:35 PM
  #14
steveg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Well, that's what my response was aimed at.

Those two players (Goc and Stempniak) SHOULD have helped our depth by replacing the two-worst players on the team (two of Pyatt, Glass, Adams).

That would have drastically changed the look of the team. Just for example, last night would have been:

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Gibbons - Goc - Sutter (however you want these guys to line up)
Glass - Vitale - Engelland (?)

And then after Bennett came back

Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Goc - Sutter
Gibbons/Glass - Vitale - Engelland

I think the team looks completely different. But that will never happen, so there's no way these acquisitions will have the impact they should.
What's MOST sad about all of this IMO, is that we had this same issue/discussion last year...that no matter WHO was brought in at the deadline, this board's speculation was that the people who would lose ice time would NOT be the ones who needed to -- and thus the new acquisitions wouldn't help us ANYWHERE NEAR as much they otherwise could have...

That speculation turned out to be correct, both on the offensive and defensive side...

And now, one year later, and here we are again...with the exact same issues/concerns...

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:41 PM
  #15
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
Ideally we'd have what you got there, yeah.

I'd say this is our likely setup when Beau gets healthy:

Kunitz-Sid-Stemper
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Pyatt-Sutter-Bennett
Glass-Goc-Adams


Which is at least a tolerably decent bottom six despite the massive suckitude of Pyatt and Gladams. But you're right that it would look a helluva lot better with Vitale and Gibbons in there.
I'll go one better.

Kunitz, Crosby, Stempniak
Jokinen, Malkin, Neal
Bennett, Sutter, Gibbons
Glass, Goc, Pyatt
Vitale/Adams/Engelland

Pyatt brings the size factor on the 4th line and he and Engelland can be there when they need that. But if they face a speedy team put Vitale on Goc's RW.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:45 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveg View Post
What's MOST sad about all of this IMO, is that we had this same issue/discussion last year...that no matter WHO was brought in at the deadline, this board's speculation was that the people who would lose ice time would NOT be the ones who needed to -- and thus the new acquisitions wouldn't help us ANYWHERE NEAR as much they otherwise could have...

That speculation turned out to be correct, both on the offensive and defensive side...

And now, one year later, and here we are again...with the exact same issues/concerns...
Exactly. The two additions WOULD help, but they won't kick the right guys off the roster. Even by having Glass and Adams on the 4th line, you can insulate those two steaming piles of 5 on 5 crap by playing them as little as possible.

But of course, as long as we see the 4th line out there after a 2 minute commercial break, taking draws in the defensive zone, adding bottom six help won't matter much.

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Old
03-12-2014, 02:58 PM
  #17
Captain Hook
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I don't mind Glass as our 12th forward. He is at least physical and a warrior blocking shots. He has an extremely limited skill set though and that's why he needs to be no more than the 12th forward and very insulated by good linemates. Craig Adams does not fit the bill. Two offensive liabilities like that shouldn't be playing on the same line and since neither Glass or Adams should be playing on a higher line, Adams should be sitting in the press box.

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03-12-2014, 02:58 PM
  #18
UnrealMachine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
Glass is awful too, and they have sat him in the past, so there may be more hope there.

This idea that Glass is having a good year or is useful is not backed up by stats or by watching him struggle out there. Lots of guys can hit. You need to find a guy who can do a few more things at an NHL level if you want to contend.
Add to that, not all hits are equal and Glass' hits tend to be 3-5 seconds after the player has already passed the puck. Those hits are almost worthless and really should be illegal. The flip side to Glass' record-setting game against Dallas is that the Pens lost 3-0 and it was one of their worst games of the year. Root would have you believe that the Pens would have lost 8-0 if not for Glass' sacrifice & dedication to checking players without the puck. Yes, his possession skills are so bad that he can't even check opposing players in possession of the puck.

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Old
03-12-2014, 03:29 PM
  #19
steveg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
I'll go one better.

Kunitz, Crosby, Stempniak
Jokinen, Malkin, Neal
Bennett, Sutter, Gibbons
Glass, Goc, Pyatt
Vitale/Adams/Engelland

Pyatt brings the size factor on the 4th line and he and Engelland can be there when they need that. But if they face a speedy team put Vitale on Goc's RW.
Or even better --

against a speedy team...

K-C-S
J-M-N
Bennett-Sutter-Goc
Gibbons-Vitale-Glass/Adams

against a team where they need size/physicality...

K-C-S
J-M-N
Bennett-Sutter-Goc
Pyatt/Glass-Vitale/Adams-Engelland

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Old
03-12-2014, 03:29 PM
  #20
SEALBound
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KUNITZ-CROSBY-STEMPNIAK
JOK/BEAU-MALKIN-NEAL
BEAU/JOK-GOC-SUTTER
HARRY Z-VITALE-ENGELLAND/GLASS

is what I would run cone playoff time. Adams sits and is behind Gibbons and Megna ideally.

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Old
03-12-2014, 03:32 PM
  #21
steveg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
I don't mind Glass as our 12th forward. He is at least physical and a warrior blocking shots. He has an extremely limited skill set though and that's why he needs to be no more than the 12th forward and very insulated by good linemates. Craig Adams does not fit the bill. Two offensive liabilities like that shouldn't be playing on the same line and since neither Glass or Adams should be playing on a higher line, Adams should be sitting in the press box.
Fully agree...any line with Glass and Adams is a literal, complete offensive black hole. I don't care if you switch them off -- scratch Glass one night to play Adams, and scratch Adams the next to play Glass...either has SOME benefit on the PK, and as you said ONE of them can be insulated by a combination of better linemates, and limited 5 on 5 TOI...but they should NEVER both be in a playoff lineup at the same time, barring major injury issues...

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Old
03-12-2014, 03:33 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
KUNITZ-CROSBY-STEMPNIAK
JOK/BEAU-MALKIN-NEAL
BEAU/JOK-GOC-SUTTER
HARRY Z-VITALE-ENGELLAND/GLASS

is what I would run cone playoff time. Adams sits and is behind Gibbons and Megna ideally.
I agree, yours is better than mine...I just see NO WAY Gibbons and Megna play, while Adams sits, in a Bylsma world, so I didn't even go there. I was simply trying to take all of DB's bottom 6 favorites, and assemble lineups using those players...

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Old
03-13-2014, 01:20 AM
  #23
Honour Over Glory
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I think in addition to these two and Beau coming back soon hopefully, yes it does.

What I would like to see when Beau is back.


Kunitz, Crosby, Stempniak
Bennett, Malkin, Neal
Goc, Sutter, Jokinen
Glass, Vitale, Adams

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Old
03-13-2014, 02:20 AM
  #24
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The issue is the "team" views Adams and glass as physical players whose hitting is a huge asset.... we have a dirth of "physical" players which s why they will play Adams, Glass, and the other player in that ilk... Orpik even if they were bleeding in all the goals this team allows and not contributing to the offense at all... that prevents them from playing true grinders or energy guys on that fourth line and really just doesn't mesh well with the rest of the team... having one hitting line isn't going to wear out a team... not even over a 7 game series.

These additions are great...Stempniak isn't the high talent winger youd want on Crosby's line, but he can fill the duper role fine for now, which is better than Gibbons. Goc is the third line center playing on a fourth line... its more than likely the lineup wont ever be optimized under the current staff, but it certainly is a lot better with the two guys we brought in... Id say without them we are on a rather substantial losing streak right now...

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Old
03-13-2014, 04:11 AM
  #25
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Don't have numbers in front of me so I don't know the results, but my impression is that Goc has been fantastic at covering the Gladams leak. However, this was against the Washington Capitals, which can't be ignored.

And Crosby's line is back to getting the sort of looks they were seeing prior to Dupuis going down and Gibbons getting the job.

We'll see, but my gut says, in answer to the article's question, absolutely not.

Without particularly changing his linemates (aside from a little bit of Jokinen), Sutter was excellent these last two. That has little to do with acquisitions and isn't something I expect to last.

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