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Old
03-13-2014, 12:32 PM
  #26
MtlPenFan
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There's physicality, and there's effective physicality.

Matt Cooke was effectively physical. His hits usually separated opposing players from the puck, and he generally created mayhem on the forecheck.

Glass can register 800 hits this year, but 90% of them will come long after a defenseman has cleared the puck, resulting in nothing more than a padded statistic that has literally no outcome on the game. I haven't ONCE seen a defenseman bail out on a play because the mighty Tanner Glass was bearing down on him.

Anyone who thinks this guy has any use outside of blocking a few shots on the PK has no clue what he's watching. And good on whoever mentioned the power of the media in a previous post. Mind you, that's because they have no idea what they're watching either.

Case in point:

Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib Mar 12
Pens lead NHL in man-games lost to injury and are 3 points behind St. Louis for most points in the league. But Bylsma is an idiot.


Here's a man whose job it is to eat and breath this hockey club, but hasn't noticed the same pattern for 4 years.

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Old
03-13-2014, 12:37 PM
  #27
djt153
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i wish there was a quantification for that, because ill admit to being perplexed by seeing some glass's hit numbers as they seem particularly invisible even in relation to that stats usual dubious nature

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Old
03-13-2014, 12:49 PM
  #28
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I think Glass could be replaced by Sill, Engelland, or PL3. Although I do not have a huge problem with him being in the line-up. Unlike Adams, he can throw hits, fight and can skate well enough.

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03-13-2014, 12:52 PM
  #29
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Forward roster's light on size and balls and Glass provides both, which makes him necessary. Or if not necessary, at least somewhat useful. He is not worse than every most or every night player on a contender.

Mike Brown...Shawn Thornton...Tim Jackman...none of them are better than Glass. Thornton used to be, but he's not now. Reaves could arguably be called more effective at 5 on 5, but the difference between a Glass and Reaves isn't going to cost--or win--you anything.

Problem is, Brown, Thornton, Jackman (etc)...those are the worst players on those teams who play at all. Glass isn't this team's worst player at forward, when with a more healthy bottom six, those other guys are comfortably in last place.

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03-13-2014, 12:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
Are they though? Or do they play in a system where their system,roles and exeptations are set in stone? If you took Campbell or pialle and stuck just one of them on the pens would they do as well. Doubt it.

Glass is not the problem. In a 4th line role he's as good as anyone in the league, surround him with paille and Campbell and I'd bet you'd feel different about him.

You need a guy like glass on your team
They score more points in less minutes (have a better +/-) and their advanced stats are better. So yes, they are better.

In a 4th line role, Glass is as good as anyone? Are you freaking kidding me haha.

Also, in your post, you say if we surrounded him with Paille and Campbell (players I just admitted are better than Glass, and of course Adams) and I would feel different about him. Of course I would, because then we'd have 2 good 4th liners plus Glass.

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03-13-2014, 12:57 PM
  #31
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I have to disagree with Thornton being as talented as Glass. He has a better set of hands, and he is capable of fighting heavyweights which makes him more valuable. Mike Brown has good foot speed and provides plenty of grit, good middleweight fighter as well. Jackman is a bit of a punching bag, but he provides great size with grit and the ability to skate,

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03-13-2014, 01:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rocket Tocchet View Post
I have to disagree with Thornton being as talented as Glass. He has a better set of hands, and he is capable of fighting heavyweights which makes him more valuable. Mike Brown has good foot speed and provides plenty of grit, good middleweight fighter as well. Jackman is a bit of a punching bag, but he provides great size with grit and the ability to skate,
Who said Thornton was as talented as Glass? Neither of them are particularly talented.

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03-13-2014, 01:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Well Paille and Campbell are much better players than Glass and Thornton can actually win fights.
They're all paid more apart from Thornton. The way Glass is used and who is used with is more of the problem than his actual ability (or lack there of). He should be the 11th/12th forward but he's always the guy who is promoted first if there are injuries. He could be replaced by Sill without a big drop off.

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03-13-2014, 01:03 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Rocket Tocchet View Post
I have to disagree with Thornton being as talented as Glass. He has a better set of hands, and he is capable of fighting heavyweights which makes him more valuable. Mike Brown has good foot speed and provides plenty of grit, good middleweight fighter as well. Jackman is a bit of a punching bag, but he provides great size with grit and the ability to skate,
Agreed. Jackman is hardly worth mentioning, but talking about Glass in the same vain as guys like Thornton and Brown is a joke.

Regardless, the difference between those players isn't just between the players themselves, but they way they're used. Thornton and Brown aren't looked upon as Selke candidates and used as such.

Unfortunately, Glass and Adams isn't just about Glass and Adams, but the buffoon behind the bench.

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03-13-2014, 01:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
They're all paid more apart from Thornton. The way Glass is used and who is used with is more of the problem than his actual ability (or lack there of). He should be the 11th/12th forward but he's always the guy who is promoted first if there are injuries. He could be replaced by Sill without a big drop off.
Agreed. I never claimed we should compare Glass to Paille or Campbell. The dude making this thread said they made around the same and are comparable players. None of that is true.

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03-13-2014, 01:16 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Tocchet View Post
I have to disagree with Thornton being as talented as Glass. He has a better set of hands, and he is capable of fighting heavyweights which makes him more valuable. Mike Brown has good foot speed and provides plenty of grit, good middleweight fighter as well. Jackman is a bit of a punching bag, but he provides great size with grit and the ability to skate,
Thornton's not what he was 5 years ago. He's not the liability Adams is, but he's probably less effective than Glass now. His relative corsi is actually worse and that's with no Adams factor to drive it down.

Brown's isn't, but he was a ghost of what he used to be in the games I saw of him this season and again, isn't playing with someone as obviously ineffective as Adams.

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Old
03-13-2014, 01:33 PM
  #37
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Glass isn't as bad as some make him out to be, and he's playing better than last year. Also if he's the worst player on your team it's not the end of the world, all top teams have a Glass on the roster, that's why they're fourth liners.

All that being said, the reality here is that there are simply better players on this team. Even if he isn't the worst player in the NHL, even if he's being overused by the coach, even if he is playing in combo with someone worse, he's still taking time away from better players. Vitale, Megna, Gibbons, Engelland, Z, and Sill are simply superior players whom he is playing over.

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03-13-2014, 01:48 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
They score more points in less minutes (have a better +/-) and their advanced stats are better. So yes, they are better.

In a 4th line role, Glass is as good as anyone? Are you freaking kidding me haha.

Also, in your post, you say if we surrounded him with Paille and Campbell (players I just admitted are better than Glass, and of course Adams) and I would feel different about him. Of course I would, because then we'd have 2 good 4th liners plus Glass.

They have more games played and Campbell actually plays more mins, the +- and points are all very similar. Camels got 15 games on glass and 5 pts.

They play for Boston of course their +- is gonna be better.

Glass also has more hits then both of them combined. Almost has more blocked shots than both combined as well

Glass isn't the problem

Glass is as good and productive as any 4th liner in the league no doubt

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Old
03-13-2014, 01:52 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by NMK11 View Post
Glass isn't as bad as some make him out to be, and he's playing better than last year. Also if he's the worst player on your team it's not the end of the world, all top teams have a Glass on the roster, that's why they're fourth liners.

All that being said, the reality here is that there are simply better players on this team. Even if he isn't the worst player in the NHL, even if he's being overused by the coach, even if he is playing in combo with someone worse, he's still taking time away from better players. Vitale, Megna, Gibbons, Engelland, Z, and Sill are simply superior players whom he is playing over.
Megna and gibbons are not 4th line players. And Sill better than Glass? Based on what exactly? Adams is taking time away from vital not glass and engelland is right where he is supposed to be, healthy scratch until a Dman or bottom 6er gets hurt

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03-13-2014, 02:09 PM
  #40
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I'm not saying Glass is the end all be all for a 4th liner but he's certainly no worse than any other 4th liner in the league. He's under valued here because he had a bad year, what do you expect coming to a new team with no camp and a shortened season.

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03-13-2014, 02:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
They have more games played and Campbell actually plays more mins, the +- and points are all very similar. Camels got 15 games on glass and 5 pts.

They play for Boston of course their +- is gonna be better.

Glass also has more hits then both of them combined. Almost has more blocked shots than both combined as well

Glass isn't the problem

Glass is as good and productive as any 4th liner in the league no doubt
We clearly disagree here. Glass is an okay 4th liner. He's certainly not as good and productive as any 4th liner. I don't lose sleep over Glass anyway, so I shall move along.

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Old
03-13-2014, 02:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
I'm not saying Glass is the end all be all for a 4th liner but he's certainly no worse than any other 4th liner in the league. He's under valued here because he had a bad year, what do you expect coming to a new team with no camp and a shortened season.
Glass is worse than a lot of fourth liners. Just not all of them, or even all the fourth liners on contenders.

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03-13-2014, 02:28 PM
  #43
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Glass is worse than a lot of fourth liners. Just not all of them, or even all the fourth liners on contenders.
Glass was a 4th line winger on a Vancouver team that was a win away from the Cup. Glass by himself isn't a problem. Adams by himself may not be a problem. But both of them together is just forfeiting a lot of puck possession time and making their center's job really tough. Other teams know when the Pens' 4th line is out, they are free to go on the attack. Any offensive momentum just gets squashed when Bylsma ices that 4th line. In the playoffs, you know this is going to be a back-breaker.

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03-13-2014, 02:31 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by WhatsaMaatta View Post
Glass was a 4th line winger on a Vancouver team that was a win away from the Cup. Glass by himself isn't a problem. Adams by himself may not be a problem. But both of them together is just forfeiting a lot of puck possession time and making their center's job really tough. Other teams know when the Pens' 4th line is out, they are free to go on the attack. Any offensive momentum just gets squashed when Bylsma ices that 4th line. In the playoffs, you know this is going to be a back-breaker.
Yeah, that's exactly where I am, apart from being convinced Adams will kill us if he plays, no matter who he plays with or against.

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03-13-2014, 02:35 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
<B>Megna and gibbons are not 4th line players. </B> And Sill better than Glass? Based on what exactly? Adams is taking time away from vital not glass and engelland is right where he is supposed to be, healthy scratch until a Dman or bottom 6er gets hurt
This thinking is exactly what I don't get sometimes. Too often its fourth liner = PKer with grit. That's garbage, give me the best line possible, not just one filled with grinders. Sure, being physical makes you hard to play against. Want to know what else makes you hard to play against? Maintaining possession and keeping the puck on the other team's half of the ice. Megna and Gibbons are both fully capable of playing sound defense but could actually make the line somewhat of a threat.

He's an average fourth liner, which is fine for an average team, but I'd like to see more. And as Shady put it, I really don't lose sleep over him as a singular player either, and he's far from our biggest problem. Still, ignoring any problem when you have a solution right there is the kind of stuff that's brought this team down the past few years.

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03-13-2014, 02:42 PM
  #46
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Glass has been fine this year for the most part, but he's overpaid for what he brings.

I'm just worried that he'll be replaced by another Kobasew or Ebbett, rather than a more effective gritty player.

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03-13-2014, 02:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
- he was bad last year, but shortened season with no real training camp

- playing above the 4th line isn't his fault, with the injuries this year many players have played out of role.

- If you look around the league his cap hit is pretty standard with a veteran 4th liner. 700k-1.5m, look at Boston. Their 4th liners make that much. Like it or not glass even has around the same production as those guys as well

- compare Glass to Campbell, Paille, Thornton, stats and pay are very comparable.
Comparing Glass to Boston's 4th line is a ****ing joke.

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03-13-2014, 03:34 PM
  #48
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Comparing Glass to Boston's 4th line is a ****ing joke.
Campbell and Paille aren't even "gritty" in the traditional sense, and I'll say right here and now that they're not as "tough" as Glass is. They're scrappy for sure, but no d-man who turns his back on them to retrieve a puck is living in fear.

But, they're quick. They're decent skaters with decent hands who are going to get in on the forecheck and pop in about 10 goals a year. Remember, this is the Boston Bruins, and the only "tough" guy on their 4th line is Thornton, whose minutes are religiously monitored against skilled opponents.

So instead of putting out a 4th line of Vitale-Scrabbles-Megna for instance, who aren't going to hurt anyone physically but are going to create a ton of mayhem on the forecheck, Bylsma puts out our paint by numbers "gritty/tough" guys, because that's what the handbook says you have to put out there as a 4th line.

What pisses me off the most is that they're leading the division by 18 points. NOBODY is going to catch them, and all they're technically fighting for now is home ice in the Conference against Boston. The Pens can finish no worse than 2nd in the East.

Isn't NOW the time to experiment, when the standings are already decided? Honestly, what's the harm in putting out a 4th line like the one I mentioned for handful of games to see if it's effective? God forbid Bylsma gets out of his comfort zone and tries something that doesn't involve his favorite pets.

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03-13-2014, 03:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
Megna and gibbons are not 4th line players. And Sill better than Glass? Based on what exactly? Adams is taking time away from vital not glass and engelland is right where he is supposed to be, healthy scratch until a Dman or bottom 6er gets hurt
I agree with your assumption that Megna and Gibbons aren't suitable for the fourth line. I'd prefer a player that provides grit and size. Sill and Glass play similar. However, Sill's skating ability, versatility and ability to take faceoffs makes him more valuable. He does what Glass does at half the cost.

Fourth line that I want for next season:

Matt Kassian - Zach Sill - Spencer Machacek

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03-13-2014, 05:17 PM
  #50
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I think Glass has been effective this year. But I hope he's not re-signed because Sill can do about as well and for less. Glass will probably get a raise.

If it matters I'd like to see a 4th line of Sill - Vitale - Thorburn next year.

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