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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Peter Forsberg was the most complete hockey player who ever lived.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:11 AM
  #101
Cursed Lemon
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Physicality is not a "requirement", it just makes being a dominating hockey player that much easier.

Lidstrom is an exception - but exceptions confirm the rules.

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03-17-2014, 10:31 AM
  #102
vadim sharifijanov
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okay okay, i always seem to be the guy who long-windedly tries to nail down criteria in these kinds of threads. but here i go anyway:

rather than bickering about whether physicality, or any other attribute, "counts" towards completeness, or whether a player with fewer dimensions who is extraordinary at them can get by without one or a few attributes and still be considered complete, what if we nail down an arbitrary level of eliteness for a number of skills, and the guy who hits that level at the most skills is the most complete?

i don't know what that list is, but to start us off: goal scoring, playmaking, two-way ability, shutdown ability, PP, PK, hitting, fighting, leadership, game-raising ability/"clutchness," puck possession, flow-of-the-game control

add other skills/attributes as you see fit. so who hits eliteness at all or most of those targets? that person wouldn't necessarily be the best player (wayne, for example, misses a few of those), but he might be the most complete.


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03-17-2014, 03:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
This is why completeness is overrated. It's a team sport, and each player should be a piece of the team, not needing to be everything single-handedly. Who cares if Forsberg was more complete than Gretzky or Lemieux? He clearly wasn't anywhere NEAR as good a player.
Best all round player ≠ Greatest Player of all time.

Two completely different arguments.

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Old
03-18-2014, 11:44 AM
  #104
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I wouldn't dare to suggest that Forsberg is the best player ever, and I do not think that, but he was pretty complete. The thing that stands out the most, and I have watched a lot of games with Forsberg, is that when he was on the ice you always felt that his side was in the driver seat controlling the game. It didn't matter what the opposition was. That is a quality few players have.

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03-19-2014, 10:22 AM
  #105
shazariahl
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Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
Best all round player ≠ Greatest Player of all time.

Two completely different arguments.
Exactly, that's my point. The problem is people don't separate that and get it confused. That's why we have people claim that Fedorov's peak was higher than Gretzky or Lemieux's.

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03-19-2014, 12:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 View Post
I wouldn't dare to suggest that Forsberg is the best player ever, and I do not think that, but he was pretty complete. The thing that stands out the most, and I have watched a lot of games with Forsberg, is that when he was on the ice you always felt that his side was in the driver seat controlling the game. It didn't matter what the opposition was. That is a quality few players have.
I agree completely. I think he gets underrated by a lot of people due to his low goal totals, but he was a very unselfish player, and IMO could have scored a lot more if he wanted to. Not the most complete player ever, but he was close to it. Not many could take over games like Forsberg could.

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03-19-2014, 03:40 PM
  #107
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For most complete of all time:

Orr/Howe

Beliveau

Potvin/Harvey

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03-19-2014, 03:43 PM
  #108
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Really, Bobby Orr was the most complete player to ever live IMO. More complete than even Howe I would say.

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Old
03-20-2014, 03:53 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I find the "end thread" meme to be insulting to those who have actually put together quality arguments for other players.

Do you have an argument to add?

We won't be ending the thread, so feel free to elaborate.
I wasn't expecting the thread to end. I was merely pointing out my opinion.

I feel Orr is the most complete player of all time.

Beyond his brilliant play, his statistics are just mind boggling.

I'd take Orr over Howe any day....

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03-21-2014, 04:18 AM
  #110
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Well, there is Bobby Orr. And Gordie Howe. Trottier as well.

Forsberg's probably the most complete player I've seen since Trottier.

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01-12-2015, 04:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Reindl87 View Post
His career average is very good. No doubt. But frankly you have to put it a little into perspective. He was a very consistent scorer but he never had really outstanding years. He was never clearly the best scorer in the leauge. His career average certainly benefits of his small number of total games, too.

{Mod} Peter played a big part of his career half-injured, the last years skating around on one foot basically. Do you realy think that benefited his points per game avarage??! He struggled with injuries from '97 and so on, and led the NHL in scoring numerous of times at the point when the particilar season's first injury came along.


Last edited by Killion: 01-12-2015 at 05:14 PM. Reason: .. easy.
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Old
01-12-2015, 10:16 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Well, there is Bobby Orr. And Gordie Howe. Trottier as well.

Forsberg's probably the most complete player I've seen since Trottier.
Since it's been bumped back, consensus is Orr and Howe, well HM are Messier/Trottier/Fedorov/etc?

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Old
01-12-2015, 11:09 PM
  #113
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In terms of players that could be asked to do anything and do it exceptionally well...

Orr and Howe have to be my 1 and 1A.

After that, Messier, Mikita, Trottier, Forsberg, Harvey, Potvin, Bourque, Lidstrom and Robinson all come immediately to mind. Fedorov, Sakic, Yzerman, Kurri to a slightly lesser extent.

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01-12-2015, 11:19 PM
  #114
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^^^ Good list. I like your choice of Larry Robinson. He could play forward if called upon. I'd add Red Kelly to the contingent as well.

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Old
01-12-2015, 11:45 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
In terms of players that could be asked to do anything and do it exceptionally well...

Orr and Howe have to be my 1 and 1A.

After that, Messier, Mikita, Trottier, Forsberg, Harvey, Potvin, Bourque, Lidstrom and Robinson all come immediately to mind. Fedorov, Sakic, Yzerman, Kurri to a slightly lesser extent.
Looking at that list, how would you rank Beliveau on the "complete players" ranking? I believe Jean Beliveau also was not afraid of settling his business in a fight. But he established his physical presence early on in his career and didn't really need to get in to fights after that. Not sure if I am correct, but that's how I remember reading it somewhere.

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Old
01-12-2015, 11:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Well, there is Bobby Orr....

Forsberg's probably the most complete player I've seen since Trottier.
^^^That's how I've seen it in my lifetime.

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01-12-2015, 11:57 PM
  #117
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If you want to make a case for Forsberg as being the most complete forward of all time, I'll listen.

Try and list him about Bobby Orr and I'm tuning you out.

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Old
01-13-2015, 01:44 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Good list. I like your choice of Larry Robinson. He could play forward if called upon. I'd add Red Kelly to the contingent as well.
Kelly is a great choice as well, almost by definition. A little ashamed that I forgot to mention him.

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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Looking at that list, how would you rank Beliveau on the "complete players" ranking? I believe Jean Beliveau also was not afraid of settling his business in a fight. But he established his physical presence early on in his career and didn't really need to get in to fights after that. Not sure if I am correct, but that's how I remember reading it somewhere.
Those were just names that popped in my head right off the bat. Beliveau absolutely belongs on that list, his physicality is often forgotten. Though how did his defensive game compare with the others I mentioned?

EDIT: I guess I'll somewhat answer my own question - Messier's defensive game is often overstated and mistaken as being great because of his physicality. Beliveau has to be considered as good of an "all around player" as Mess. Messier's intimidation was second to only Howe, but Beliveau has him beat everywhere else.

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01-13-2015, 02:11 AM
  #119
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A Swedish blogger use to argue that one can't be the "most complete" when this question is brought up. You are either complete or not complete. He sure has a point.

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01-13-2015, 02:21 AM
  #120
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A Swedish blogger use to argue that one can't be the "most complete" when this question is brought up. You are either complete or not complete. He sure has a point.
At that point you just look for the best player who has been dubbed "complete"

Ryan Kesler is a complete player, but Rod Brind'Amour is more complete, because he was better at all the things that made them each complete.

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01-13-2015, 02:50 AM
  #121
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how about king clancy, the only guy i know of to credibly play defense, forward, and goal?

scored, excellent defensively, tough and would fight anyone but apparently also generally played clean and stayed out of the box, reportedly a wonderful leader.
clancy was not a clean player. look at his PIM

i remember reading something last year where his coach told him to go out and cheapshot an opponent, and he did. that sort of thing was not uncommon at the time.

imo, eddie shore and sprague cleghorn get singled out too much for dirty play, whereas lots of their contemporaries mostly escape scrutiny.

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First a general statement - I think that you are neglecting the long term psychological and physical effects that a physical hockey player can have on his opponents, especially over a long playoffs series.

As for Lidstrom, I have seen a few Red Wings fans like nik-jr say that his only weakness was defending the front of the net (the "crease" area), particularly on the PK due to lack of physicality in the era of "crease clearing," and that even though Lidstrom was great on the PK, Chris Chelios was noticeably better at that one specific aspect of the game when they were both Red Wings. (I am only going on what I have seen other posters say; I did not watch anything close to enough 2001-02 Wings to have such a nuanced view of them myself. And I would not be surprised if Fugu disagreed).

I think that physicality is less important than a lot of other aspects of the game, especially if you can cover for it in other ways (like Lidstrom can in most aspects of the game). But it is an aspect, nonetheless.
that's right.

Ishdul is right though that chelios is an all time great PKer (best i have seen), and that lidstrom passed him as he became old.

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I think the psychological are 99% myth and the physical effects are predominantly related to injuries and not the wearing down/gassing which is commonly associated with it. Teams gas more from having top heavy ice times in a playoff overtime setting, for instance.
it's a real thing. it's just harder to play when you are taking hits and feeling more pain.

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Pavel Datsyuk is not a physical player. And yet he is capable of checking when opportune:
i think that is missed often b/c he is known for skill and byngs (lidstrom should have won all those, though.)

i was surprised when zetterberg was described in the all time draft as much more physical than datsyuk. datsyuk is more physical.

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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
In my opinion Sergei Fedorov was better as a two way player.
he was better defensively, but i think forsberg's offensive superiority was even bigger.

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
I don't know, but for the record: my point is not that we should blame Lidström, it is that a player of Lidström's abilities and skills with some physical play on top would be more complete and better than Lidström.
agree

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01-13-2015, 05:09 AM
  #122
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While Mario and Jagr had more dominating seasons offensively, the best all-around play I've seen has come from Forsberg, Sakic, Fedorov and Lindros.

Sakic was the most consistent, Fedorov had some ridiculous seasons (1994) and playoffs (4 straight 20+ points post-seasons), Lindros was shot down by injuries, but Forsberg was the best, the most well-rounded of them all.

Considering Mario was retired/injured and Gretzky was declining by 1995, Forsberg would be my easy choice to build a franchise around from 1995-2005, if we're talking about centers.

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Old
01-13-2015, 07:53 AM
  #123
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No he really wasn't. I'm not sure he's one of the top greatest players all time.
In fact I would take Bryan Trottier, Yzerman, Mikita and Sakic over him off the top of my head.

Now if you mean from Sweden probably yes.
He's probably at the 40-50 range of the top players alltime.

He's not as legendary as you think and not the only complete player the NHL has seen.

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04-06-2017, 04:40 PM
  #124
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"He was the most talented guy I ever played with, for just pure raw talent. But more than that, he was a winner and a total gamer, he just wanted to win. He didn't care who scored all the goals or who got all the credit. He just wanted to win, and that's why his teams won as much as they did. We were all very lucky to play with him." "He was such an unselfish player, he loved to setup teammates, he's passing ability was second to none. He created alot of empty nets for alot of players and im one of the big benefactors from him, I got alot of easy goals thanks to Peter. There was nobody in my era there that was as skilled as him and that could play that tough style of hockey and i know when see other friends, he's the one player they mentioned they hated to play against. I got to play with Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and all these guys, but there's not one guy that i could compare Forsberg with, he could beat you up physically or he could beat somebody up and bang them around and then take the puck and make the nicest pass ever, no-one else had that. -- Joe Sakic

"Peter Forsberg is one of the best hockey players that ever played the game, and I actually don't think that anyone has been so good as Peter was during his peak, I've played against him alot, so I should know." -- Vjatjeslav Fetisov

At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against" -- Scott Stevens

"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against." -- Derian Hatcher

"For me, an agitator is somebody who controls the emotion of the game," "And Peter definitely controls the emotion of the game for them." "The only thing that stopped Forsberg is that he ran out of gas when they double- and tripleshifted him, and he wasn't able to use his speed, plus his strength," Hitchcock says. "I remember one time he kept the puck in our end for 40, maybe 50 seconds, and we couldn't get the thing away from him. His ability to knock Derian Hatcher on his butt while giving up 40 pounds shows how he can completely control and dominate a game. He's a player with skill and talent who occasionally goes maniacal. Boy, he gets a really strange look in his eyes. It's like the same steely glare that Mark Messier always gets, and you don't want to be anywhere near him." -- Ken Hitchcock

"Obviously one of the best players in the league the last 15 years, a guy who really controlled the play when he was on the ice, and there's only a handful of guy's in the league at any given era that really, actually controlled the play when the're where on the ice, just his combination of skill, strenght, determinition, and a bit of meanness or alot of meanness actually made him one of the best players to play." -- Steve Yzerman

"Peter is the best all-around player in the NHL, bar none. He's a competitor. He's the ultimate warrior. His hands are electric. He's one of the smartest players on the ice, and he knows where everybody is. He always makes the right play, and he even makes the plays you don't think he can make. He's so fast on his feet and so powerful. And he's mean. The guy is so talented, he's disgusting to watch." -- Jeremy Roenick

"If you could be anyone else in hockey, who would it be?" -- "That's easy. Peter Forsberg," (Claude) Lemieux says. "I could still be mean and nasty, but if I had all of the skills that he has, I might have won five or six Stanley Cups by now. "I can only dream of skating like Peter. Either that or buy some rocket-powered skates." "(After seeing) a Michael Jordan or a Wayne Gretzky, you think you've seen it all," Lemieux says, "and then Peter shows you something entirely new. "It's the way he creates space, uses space. It's the way he sees the ice. It's the way he picks up speed even after he picks up the puck. And it's the meanness, the nastiness." -- Claude Lemieux

"He's a coach's dream. The more crucial the time in a game or a series, the tougher he gets. I think sometimes he's able to flip on a switch in his mind and be at a different level than everyone else. " -- Ray Bourque

"Peter's ability to change the game was bar none, he could bring so many elements to a game to change it... My best advice when you're playing against Peter is to go change and let someone else play against him." -- Adam Deadmarsh

"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg. We have had our battles (he said laughing)... Forsberg was a one-man wrecking crew. He was so skilled and yet so powerful.. the man could simply do it all and at the same time he was hard as nails. He was extremely tough to play against. He was down right nasty." -- Chris Chelios

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04-06-2017, 04:45 PM
  #125
Merya
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Lindros rather than Foppa. Datsyuk and Henri Richard in a way too.

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