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How many points does erik karlsson have to beat duncan keith by to win the norris????

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:34 PM
  #26
Regal
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I don't think there's enough games left to make up for his weak start, honestly. Too many people here have this idea that points+defense=value and that defense generally can't make up 20+ point leads, but it's not that simple, especially when talking about defensemen. I don't think Karlsson should really be in the race this year. I expect him back in the hunt next year, but this was more of a year to get fully back after his injury.

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03-16-2014, 11:37 PM
  #27
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Coming from a swedish guy
"capebrentoncanadien" aka Cape Brenton, Nova Scotia based Montreal Canadiens fan.

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:39 PM
  #28
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If weber gets screwed again I'm done with these awards.

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by KingsHockey24 View Post
Sad that it's all based on points for the Norris.
Except that Keith is really good defensively too.

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:41 PM
  #30
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Weber is by far the best defenseman in the league. But of course, Keith will probably win.

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03-16-2014, 11:42 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DeluzioN View Post
Has there ever been a defenseman that won the Norris with a negative +/- ? I can't think of anyone that did, at least not in my time.


Also before anyone decides to quote me and tell me how +/- is a useless stat and so forth, i will point out that i find it a fairly meaningless stat. Weber is my fav NHL D but he is -13 and will most likely finish with a - on the season. In the past 20 or so years there has not been 1 norris winner with a negative +/- . would like to hear some input
Lidstrom won the Norris in 2010-11 with a -2.

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03-16-2014, 11:43 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by skiba77777 View Post
Except that Keith is really good defensively too.
I think he means the suggestion that some arbitrary points lead would potentially be the basis for winning if Karlsson happens to hit it.

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:43 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Weber is by far the best defenseman in the league. But of course, Keith will probably win.
By far?

I would gladly take Keith over Weber ,, I think you would get guys selecting Doughty/Keith/Suter and others ahead of Weber

Plenty of top tier defenders in todays NHL

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:45 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by KingsHockey24 View Post
Sad that it's all based on points for the Norris.
It's actually quite simple, determining the best anything, ESPECIALLY defencemen would require you to watch and analyze games. Most of the voters are hacks that don't actually do any of that, so they just go by the simplest notion they can, like points or reputation. When that many don't even know OV position....it's really telling

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:45 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluzioN View Post
Has there ever been a defenseman that won the Norris with a negative +/- ? I can't think of anyone that did, at least not in my time.


Also before anyone decides to quote me and tell me how +/- is a useless stat and so forth, i will point out that i find it a fairly meaningless stat. Weber is my fav NHL D but he is -13 and will most likely finish with a - on the season. In the past 20 or so years there has not been 1 norris winner with a negative +/- . would like to hear some input
There hasn't? I count two. Rob Blake (-3)and Nicklas Lidstrom (-2). Randy Caryle (-16) also won but not in the last twenty years.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/norris.html

Before trying to pass off that "In the past 20 or so years there has not been 1 norris winner with a negative +/-" as a fact use the resources available to you such as google, Yahoo, ask, etc. Let me be the first to welcome you to the new millennium.

I'm not saying I think Weber or Karlsson will win btw. I think Weber is the best defensemen in the league at the moment but I'm not sure there has been a standout this season. I see Keith winning it based the previous exposure he has received for his season.

As for the the question in the OP there isn't a realistic number that will see him win the Norris. He has come around in the new year but it's just too little too late. These awards are almost always chosen in January.


Last edited by MrCraigAnderson: 03-16-2014 at 11:51 PM.
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Old
03-16-2014, 11:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by great1 View Post
Lidstrom won the Norris in 2010-11 with a -2.
Which was pretty much a win on reputation.

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03-16-2014, 11:46 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
By far?

I would gladly take Keith over Weber ,, I think you would get guys selecting Doughty/Keith/Suter and others ahead of Weber

Plenty of top tier defenders in todays NHL
as far as i am concerned, weber has been the best d man in the nhl for the last 4 seasons.

I always find it amusing too, that many of the same people argue that points shouldn't matter for the norris, and it has become a joke. Yet see no issue in blaming a player for being a minus on terrible teams....

If we truly want to give the trophy to the best defender, shouldn't it go to the best defender?

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:54 PM
  #38
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If he breaks ppg, it's hard to not give it to him. Points are far from everything, but 83 or more.....damn.

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03-16-2014, 11:55 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DylanTheGinge View Post
Not sure why you are upset... The Norris is for the best all-around defenseman, and the last 2 years' winners have been offense only, so why can't he argue for it? Is that not allowed on a public Internet forum?
Firstly, he is not arguing anything. I wish he would have, but a statement is not necessarily an argument.

Statements are also allowed, although I think we could agree some are less meaningful than others. This is what my own statement was pointing out.

I would posit that unless something other than the common notion of "all about points" is meant by saying "all about points", then this statement is obviously false, especially in the context of this thread.

If it truly was "all about points", the answer to this thread would be painfully obvious and as such the thread would be of questionable relevance. The answer would be : Erik Karlsson must beat Duncan Keith by one point to win the Norris.
Since the question has been asked and no one has answered with "one point", then it seems obvious that the Norris is not "all about points", rather we are attempting to weigh the gap in Karlsson's defensive game against the gap in Keith's offensive game through a number of points necessary for one gap to overtake the other.

Moreover, the year Subban won the norris, I believe Letang had the most points. But how could this be if the Norris is "all about points"? You must enlighten me good sir Dylan.

If however you meant to say that you believe a debate can be contrived around the notion of offense being overvalued insofar as this value determines the Norris winner, then I would agree. Sadly, this was neither made clear nor was any argument proposed, which is the primary cause of my initial comment. Now that you know where I stand, if you have an objection please feel free to share.

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03-16-2014, 11:55 PM
  #40
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How does Keith only have 3 goals??

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03-16-2014, 11:57 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
As of right now here is what Karlsson/Weber/Keith look like stats wise

Karlsson = 67 GP with 17 goals + 44 assists and a -15
Keith = 67 GP with 3 goals + 50 assists and +23
Weber = 65 GP with 16 goals + 27 assists and -13

Now lets look at teams they play for and impact players have made

Sens ,, Out of playoff picture most of year (Karlsson's poor start major reason why)
Hawks ,, Competing for Cup
Preds ,, Just about dead in West playoff race (Weber also started poorly)
Now let's look at team spending.

8. Chicago 65.3 million
23. Nashville 59.3 million
26. Ottawa 56.4 million

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:57 PM
  #42
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If Keith wins it will be because he plays on a stacked team that scores a ton. He's still a top-5 or so D-man, but he's not the best. Put him on Nashville and he is scratching 30 points and is -20. Karlsson, Weber, Subban, and Doughty are all better this year than Keith imo.

Does Andrej Sekera deserve Norris consideration this year? He's got 11G 30A, 24:36 TOI, +6.

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Old
03-17-2014, 12:09 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Beatdown View Post
How does Keith only have 3 goals??
He has the shot of a 7 yr old girl ,, Wasn't like that in 2010

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Old
03-17-2014, 12:14 AM
  #44
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Karlsson is a compiler who does nothing to really control the game. He puts up numbers and makes flashy rover type plays but he's more like a Sandis Ozolinsh in his prime than a classic Norris calibre defenseman who can control a game at both ends. He plays the game like the NBA, generate a goal and just as easily let the other team come back with one of their own.

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Old
03-17-2014, 08:38 AM
  #45
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"capebrentoncanadien" aka Cape Brenton, Nova Scotia based Montreal Canadiens fan.
Correct. I just love that picture of Zibinejad bowling over his teamate at the Wjcs a few years back.

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Old
03-17-2014, 08:48 AM
  #46
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Considering his severe injury, how obvious it is that his skating is not back to normal and how well he played over whole ice before injury....I think many are too harsh on his game. If he played like he does now with a complete healthy foot, I would agree with the critics. But for now. it's premature to just spit on him.

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03-17-2014, 09:07 AM
  #47
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As much as people here realize it's a dumb stat, voters still use +/- so I really doubt Karlsson or Weber will win it with +/- that bad

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03-17-2014, 09:13 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluzioN View Post
Has there ever been a defenseman that won the Norris with a negative +/- ? I can't think of anyone that did, at least not in my time.


Also before anyone decides to quote me and tell me how +/- is a useless stat and so forth, i will point out that i find it a fairly meaningless stat. Weber is my fav NHL D but he is -13 and will most likely finish with a - on the season. In the past 20 or so years there has not been 1 norris winner with a negative +/- . would like to hear some input
he won it just a few years ago and his name is lidstrom and he mostly won it just because his name is well lidstrom.

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Old
03-17-2014, 09:14 AM
  #49
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Karlsson will not win the Norris this season. I don't think he's even in the top 5 discussion this year to be honset.


And as a side note, Mark Giordano deserves serious consideration this season.

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Old
03-17-2014, 09:34 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuiresMonsters View Post
If Keith wins it will be because he plays on a stacked team that scores a ton. He's still a top-5 or so D-man, but he's not the best. Put him on Nashville and he is scratching 30 points and is -20. Karlsson, Weber, Subban, and Doughty are all better this year than Keith imo.

Does Andrej Sekera deserve Norris consideration this year? He's got 11G 30A, 24:36 TOI, +6.
What does "stacked team" has to do with how he is currently playing this season?

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