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Old
10-05-2003, 02:02 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc
if posts from trollers become tolerated, it's a slippery slope that will lead to more and more of this kind of behavior and pretty soon, all you will see on other teams boards are trash talk that will flood the team boards with utterly useless antagonisms with nothing constructive being contributed.
I tolerate and ignore trollers, but I can see that letting statements meant to antagonize fans just leads to trouble..
Fair enough, however I am a regular lurker of alt.sports.hockey.nhl.vancouver.canucks and there is no moderator there. There are your trollers, but they are for the most part ignored. The conversations are good, insightful and on the whole quite enjoyable to read. If one doesn't want to read a troll, one doesn't.

And to answer Waveburner's post, I do go to other boards now, simply because I don't agree with the policies of these boards. There are good conversations that go on here, and I still check back from time to time. Quite honestly, often the latest news, or the first reports of trades are found here, and so I check back from time to time.

I weighed in on this conversation simply because of the post that I quoted in my origanal message. Mizral, in the first part of his post said that dissenting voices are encouraged, yet in the second part scolded a poster like a 6 year old kid. If the trolling poster was obviously looking to start a fight, then isn't the respondent *as much to blame* as the original troller? Shouldn't the people who feed the trolls be threatened with banishment as well?

I am one of those dissenting voices. If you don't like my opinion fine. You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am entitled to mine.

And LaVal, I rarely agree with anything that you post. In fact you and I went head to head a couple of months ago over BB's job as GM. So, I am not suprised that you disagree with me here.

Quote:
- posting "I don't think Jovanovski is a good player, and here's why..." in a thread about say Canucks defense, or Jovanovski in general
- posting "You Canucks fans suck because you think Jovanovski is good and he sucks" in a thread about the impending CBA

now you can't tell me that you can't tell the difference between which one of those statements is an actual opinionated argument, and which is a blatent attempt at trolling.

what is he doing? using a common stereotyped trait in a hateful manor. so using your logic there should be no editing or deletion of things such as racism.

bottom line is anybody that comes here solely to lessen other people's enjoyment should be dealt with.
Give me a freaking break. To compare someone saying "Jovanoski is crappy" to a racial statement is using such twisted logic there you should seriously consider a career in politics. It is someone trolling for sure, but where is the common stereotype? People out there *do* think Jovo sucks, and I am sure that they have their reasons.

One statement is definitely a troll and should be ignored. It's called being the bigger person. A troll is a person that says stuff to get a reaction. If no one were to react, including the mods, the troll would leave. But by anyone saying anything, the purpose of the troll has been successful. Sure ban him/her. If he really wants to troll the group, he will come back as someone else.

Ah well. Back to lurking.

 
Old
10-05-2003, 02:14 PM
  #52
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Godlike,

If these were my boards, I would be more lax on policy.

However, they are not. These are a privatly run messageboard. It is not a right to post here, it is a privilage. The guidelines are clearly set by the owners of the messageboard. As a moderator, it's my responsability to carry those guidelines out (with some liberties here and there).

Whereas you may feel trolling is fine, others do not. The owners the website do not. This is not a democracy - if you don't like it, go to another messageboard. Period. End of story.

Anyways, the rules on this messageboard are pretty darn easy to follow. You hardly have to walk on pins and needles. I have banned, tops, 3 posters on this board since January. That works out to less than 1 ban per month for me, and I'm sure Kirk & Nalyd are not a lot different.

Read the guidelines. If you don't agree with them, try the SLAM.com messageboards.

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10-05-2003, 02:40 PM
  #53
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Yeah, Miz pretty much said what I meant, only better

The board policy is very easy to read. When someone breaks those rules, the rules should be enforced. End of story.

Godlike, I agree it would be much much easier to get rid of trolls if people just ignored them, but quite frankly, they don't And I for one get sick of clicking on a post entitled, for example, "Who should the Canucks protect in the waiver draft", only to click through 5 pages of people going back forth saying "Burke is a baby"-"No he isn't, you are a baby".

If you prefer a board that allows the trolls to post freely, by all means, have fun with that Just don't expect it to be tolerated here. And don't expect anyone to agree with you around here either. We all pretty much came here for the same reason-this board actually has not been flooded by internet idiots yet, and we kind of like it that way

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Old
10-05-2003, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Godlike,

If these were my boards, I would be more lax on policy.

However, they are not. These are a privatly run messageboard. It is not a right to post here, it is a privilage. The guidelines are clearly set by the owners of the messageboard. As a moderator, it's my responsability to carry those guidelines out (with some liberties here and there).

Whereas you may feel trolling is fine, others do not. The owners the website do not. This is not a democracy - if you don't like it, go to another messageboard. Period. End of story.

Anyways, the rules on this messageboard are pretty darn easy to follow. You hardly have to walk on pins and needles. I have banned, tops, 3 posters on this board since January. That works out to less than 1 ban per month for me, and I'm sure Kirk & Nalyd are not a lot different.

Read the guidelines. If you don't agree with them, try the SLAM.com messageboards.
I am also a regular reader of the trade rumors board and don't find that board to be so upitty either. And that board has a lot more inflammatory material.

Bingo. Again you say exactly what turns me off from these boards. It's not a right it's a priviledge? That's the attitude you take with a poster that you disagree with?

It's not a hard decision to make when you put it that way. How about I forward this conversation to the owners of this board, and all of their advertiser's as well? Think that Amazon is going to say that to me or any of their customers that I should go suck on it? As a webmaster, the point of a website is to get people to COME to your website, not to tell them to go get bent.

The point of the OP was that people should settle down here, especially you with your high handed approach. Nalyd & Kirk don't seem to feel the need to constantly tell people to "watch it", and if you continually tell everyone to bugger off who questions your supreme will, soon you will have no one left to read your posts, and the small $$ that is made of of advertsing will dry up.

Deal with trolling however you want to, hey you're the mod. And in the long run, if that's what people want, then more power to you. However, when people raise questions about the way things happen and you pretty much tell them to go to hell, that's wrong man. And to me, it ain't worth my time. As another poster has said, there are 100000 boards out there.

 
Old
10-05-2003, 03:23 PM
  #55
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Old
10-05-2003, 03:52 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g0dlike
I am also a regular reader of the trade rumors board and don't find that board to be so upitty either. And that board has a lot more inflammatory material.

Bingo. Again you say exactly what turns me off from these boards. It's not a right it's a priviledge? That's the attitude you take with a poster that you disagree with?

It's not a hard decision to make when you put it that way. How about I forward this conversation to the owners of this board, and all of their advertiser's as well? Think that Amazon is going to say that to me or any of their customers that I should go suck on it? As a webmaster, the point of a website is to get people to COME to your website, not to tell them to go get bent.

The point of the OP was that people should settle down here, especially you with your high handed approach. Nalyd & Kirk don't seem to feel the need to constantly tell people to "watch it", and if you continually tell everyone to bugger off who questions your supreme will, soon you will have no one left to read your posts, and the small $$ that is made of of advertsing will dry up.

Deal with trolling however you want to, hey you're the mod. And in the long run, if that's what people want, then more power to you. However, when people raise questions about the way things happen and you pretty much tell them to go to hell, that's wrong man. And to me, it ain't worth my time. As another poster has said, there are 100000 boards out there.
He told you to do what you are supposed to do before you even post here-read the guidelines, and follow them. I hardly think that meritted this rather pointless spiel. Don't like the rules-leave. No one cares.

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10-05-2003, 03:58 PM
  #57
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Fair enough, however I am a regular lurker of alt.sports.hockey.nhl.vancouver.canucks and there is no moderator there. There are your trollers, but they are for the most part ignored. The conversations are good, insightful and on the whole quite enjoyable to read. If one doesn't want to read a troll, one doesn't.
I'm willing to bet that that board doesn't get as many poster as this one.
I used to read and post on canuckcentral a long time ago but I stopped because it got pretty bad with the trollers.

Quote:
am also a regular reader of the trade rumors board and don't find that board to be so upitty either. And that board has a lot more inflammatory material.
I'm going to have to disagree with that. The trade rumor board is pretty decent to start with except some of trade proposals threads get out of hand. They don't usually have threads for the sole purpose of starting conflict. Some of the trades proposed are obviously so ridiculous that they will evoke retorts and maybe deliberately, but I don't see a lot of "your team sucks" kind of language.

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10-05-2003, 04:00 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waveburner
He told you to do what you are supposed to do before you even post here-read the guidelines, and follow them. I hardly think that meritted this rather pointless spiel. Don't like the rules-leave. No one cares.

Well no, he does not like the rules but at the same time he still follow the rules. So why does he has to leave? I mean he has the right to post in this board even though he does not like the rules, as long as he wants to and without breaking any of the guidence. It is his right and privilage.

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10-05-2003, 04:38 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g0dlike
Deal with trolling however you want to, hey you're the mod. And in the long run, if that's what people want, then more power to you. However, when people raise questions about the way things happen and you pretty much tell them to go to hell, that's wrong man. And to me, it ain't worth my time. As another poster has said, there are 100000 boards out there.
This is the crux of this arguement.

The pro-Trolling/anti-Trolling has been hashed and rehashed to death. The posters on this website do not want trolling. You think the other boards are better off than this? No offense, but you're insane. This is one of the loosest boards. I challenge you to look around at some of the other popular team boards (Boston & Montreal) come to mind.

Problem is, on a team board, you're going to get types who just want to come here and post nonesense. You can question it all you like, but the very vast majority of this board doesn't want to see it.

Anyhow, I never said go to hell. However, the rules are pretty well etched. If you want to challenge the rule, I'm not the man to talk to. You can contact Buffaloed if you like. In fact, it's a pretty good idea. I do not mean to get heavy-handed with you, but in this particular case, particularly with the posters in which this thread was created for, any moderator on this board would have deleted that drivel.

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Old
10-05-2003, 05:35 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g0dlike
Give me a freaking break. To compare someone saying "Jovanoski is crappy" to a racial statement is using such twisted logic there you should seriously consider a career in politics. It is someone trolling for sure, but where is the common stereotype? People out there *do* think Jovo sucks, and I am sure that they have their reasons.
it's pretty obvious i'm not comparing trolling to racism, i'm comparing the intent. the stereotype was Burke being a whiner. i was referring to the actual trolling by Kurupt and not the examples we were using.

Quote:
One statement is definitely a troll and should be ignored. It's called being the bigger person. A troll is a person that says stuff to get a reaction. If no one were to react, including the mods, the troll would leave. But by anyone saying anything, the purpose of the troll has been successful. Sure ban him/her. If he really wants to troll the group, he will come back as someone else.

Ah well. Back to lurking.
if it were just that easy. you claim to frequent multiple boards so you should know that ignoring a troll does not get rid of them. in times it can make it worse... as other trolls realize there are no consiquences. and i don't care how "big" of a person you are, if someone posts trash just to piss you off eventually you lose your ability to "bite your tongue".

nobody was asking for a ban. there was the fact that not once did a mod say anything to the troll (or so we could see, perhaps he was warned in a PM). there are also alternative options. vbulletin does allow you to restrict access or remove posting privileges on individual forums.

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Old
10-05-2003, 05:59 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP
Well no, he does not like the rules but at the same time he still follow the rules. So why does he has to leave? I mean he has the right to post in this board even though he does not like the rules, as long as he wants to and without breaking any of the guidence. It is his right and privilage.
I didn't say he had to leave. I said if he wants to post here, he should realize what those rules are, and not make a big stink when those exact same rules are enforced. Which is exactly what he is doing. There is little point in trying to belittle the HF rules. He is obviously entitled to his opinion, I guess I just don't see a good reason to be voicing this type of complaint on the Canuck forumn.

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Old
10-06-2003, 09:06 AM
  #62
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First time I've ever posted on Vancouver's board. The reason I came here is because there is a thread on the Oiler's board rating Lowe as a GM. In that thread there is a huge argument because of comments made by Canucks fans. Right in the centre of it is -you guessed it - Mizral. He wasn't monitoring this board because he was on the Oiler board calling moves made by Lowe and MacTavish various names. I came over here to see if I was being too sensitive about Mizral's fairly frequent sorties (all unflattering to the Oilers - the occassional compliment buried after a swipe) and what do I run into at the top of your board but a 'don't feed the trolls' post by the man himself.

Now I have only been a member for about 3 months and I am not going to pretend that I am somehow qualified to set standards of what constitutes trolling but I am writing to see if any of you find Mizral's opening salvo a bit over the line for a moderator on this board who is lecturing others on their behaviour. I will accept your decision.

Nice post, Lowetide.

I for one am no fan of Lowe's. He has some good sides, but has plenty bad sides to him. I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.

Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.

Trading - one of Lowe's major weakness', I'd say. A good 50% of the time, Lowe seems to outright lose a trade. Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls. All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment. Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.

Free agency - Lowe is pretty hit and miss here, too. You're right about Staios - that was a stroke of genius. Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy.

Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.

Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

One last thing: While some consider this a good move, I must say, the hiring of Craig MacTavish was perhaps his dumbest move as GM. While I know some guys like him as coach, I personally think he's just not up to snuff. One of the worst coaches in the league, even.


I guess what I am asking is how you guys would like it if one of our moderators came over here and called Burke's moves 'dumbest' and 'idiocy' while taking a swipe at our coach at the same time. Now I know this post makes points and that it doesn't deteriorate into 'did so - did not' but this is fairly indicative of how Mizral functions on our board on a pretty much daily basis. Any thoughts??

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Old
10-06-2003, 09:12 AM
  #63
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It's constructive criticism, that's all.. it's not trolling.

I wouldn't mind if someone posted a post that long with details, if they give proof why they feel the person isn't any good.

Feel free to come in and say why you don't think Burke is a good GM, but don't say.

Burke is a whiny little boy, who do you think is the biggest whiner, Burke or Bertuzzi?

That's trolling, the other was not.

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10-06-2003, 01:34 PM
  #64
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I think this whole thread is getting out of hand and is being used for personal attack purposes.

Maybe it would be a good idea if you guys/gals took these personal issues to private messaging.

Just a thought/suggestion that's all.

 
Old
10-06-2003, 04:20 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
First time I've ever posted on Vancouver's board. The reason I came here is because there is a thread on the Oiler's board rating Lowe as a GM. In that thread there is a huge argument because of comments made by Canucks fans. Right in the centre of it is -you guessed it - Mizral. He wasn't monitoring this board because he was on the Oiler board calling moves made by Lowe and MacTavish various names. I came over here to see if I was being too sensitive about Mizral's fairly frequent sorties (all unflattering to the Oilers - the occassional compliment buried after a swipe) and what do I run into at the top of your board but a 'don't feed the trolls' post by the man himself.

Now I have only been a member for about 3 months and I am not going to pretend that I am somehow qualified to set standards of what constitutes trolling but I am writing to see if any of you find Mizral's opening salvo a bit over the line for a moderator on this board who is lecturing others on their behaviour. I will accept your decision.

Nice post, Lowetide.

I for one am no fan of Lowe's. He has some good sides, but has plenty bad sides to him. I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.

Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.

Trading - one of Lowe's major weakness', I'd say. A good 50% of the time, Lowe seems to outright lose a trade. Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls. All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment. Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.

Free agency - Lowe is pretty hit and miss here, too. You're right about Staios - that was a stroke of genius. Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy.

Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.

Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

One last thing: While some consider this a good move, I must say, the hiring of Craig MacTavish was perhaps his dumbest move as GM. While I know some guys like him as coach, I personally think he's just not up to snuff. One of the worst coaches in the league, even.


I guess what I am asking is how you guys would like it if one of our moderators came over here and called Burke's moves 'dumbest' and 'idiocy' while taking a swipe at our coach at the same time. Now I know this post makes points and that it doesn't deteriorate into 'did so - did not' but this is fairly indicative of how Mizral functions on our board on a pretty much daily basis. Any thoughts??
that is just criticism. a bit harsh and controversial... yes, but still respectful of the rules.

if Mizral posted "Lowe is a bonehead who only makes stupid moves. you Oilers fans are typical for liking him" in a thread about Jason Chimera, then about the upcoming alumni game, then in one about training camp, etc, etc, etc... that would be trolling.

if Kurupt made a post like the one you mentioned in a single thread about GM'ing or Burke... then that would be criticism as well. but he chose just to post trash about whatever he could think of in any topic that didn't even relate to what he was saying. he did it simply to iritate and innitiate.

BTW, welcome to the Canucks forum. feel free to drop by any time.

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10-06-2003, 05:05 PM
  #66
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I don't think that is trolling in the least. It's very opinionated, but it is well presented and argued. That's pretty much the tone here between the two factions that fall on either side of the Burke fence.

If an Oiler fan had written that blurb, would there be any question of it's validity? It is very critical and a bit harsh in some areas, but I don't get the feel that it's mean spirited. It sound to me like a fan who is upset at the direction a GM has taken the team.

Personally I don't think Lowe has done that bad a job, but neither has he done wonders. If the Oil play well this season, Lowe may well prove his dedractors wrong. I would agree however, with Mizrals opinion of the coach... I wouldn't be as direct, but that's not the way I post.

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10-06-2003, 05:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by quat
I don't think that is trolling in the least. It's very opinionated, but it is well presented and argued. That's pretty much the tone here between the two factions that fall on either side of the Burke fence.

If an Oiler fan had written that blurb, would there be any question of it's validity? It is very critical and a bit harsh in some areas, but I don't get the feel that it's mean spirited. It sound to me like a fan who is upset at the direction a GM has taken the team.

Personally I don't think Lowe has done that bad a job, but neither has he done wonders. If the Oil play well this season, Lowe may well prove his dedractors wrong. I would agree however, with Mizrals opinion of the coach... I wouldn't be as direct, but that's not the way I post.
Nice comment quat. That's pretty much what I think too.

But, you have to admit that this thread has been used for a few personal jabs nonetheless.

 
Old
10-07-2003, 10:31 AM
  #68
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Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

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10-07-2003, 12:45 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaVal575
that is just criticism. a bit harsh and controversial... yes, but still respectful of the rules.
But at what point does simple criticism go beyond simple criticism? It is one thing to judge the Oilers' organization based on facts and substantial evidence. It is quite another to make broad-sweeping generalizations without proper knowledge of the facts first.

I've noticed glaring errors in Mizral's arguments lately that have very little basis in reality. He calls Lowe's drafting spotty yet he doesn't really even know half the prospects in the oragnization besides the ones most mentioned. He makes errors in contract terms and length and glosses them over when called upon. It's things like that that irks Oilers fans like me more than anything. I've been at HF for over a year and it wasn't always like this, though, for Mizral. I wonder what changed.

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10-07-2003, 02:22 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by momentai
But at what point does simple criticism go beyond simple criticism? It is one thing to judge the Oilers' organization based on facts and substantial evidence. It is quite another to make broad-sweeping generalizations without proper knowledge of the facts first.

I've noticed glaring errors in Mizral's arguments lately that have very little basis in reality. He calls Lowe's drafting spotty yet he doesn't really even know half the prospects in the oragnization besides the ones most mentioned. He makes errors in contract terms and length and glosses them over when called upon. It's things like that that irks Oilers fans like me more than anything. I've been at HF for over a year and it wasn't always like this, though, for Mizral. I wonder what changed.
Simple criticism becomes trolling when it becomes a post that is only made to bring people out. For instance, had I posted, 'Lowe sucks, the Oilers sucks, the Oiler fans suck', that's trolling. However, I brought up points & reasons why I thought so.

I don't know half the prospects in the organization? Okay, I know that's a hyperbole, but don't you think it's kind of strange that you are insulting me for not posting 100% accuratly when you don't, either? Do you honestly think I don't know half the Oilers prospects in the system?

I have made errors on conract terms & length, as well as mistakes in all sorts of areas. I once thought Josh Holden would turn into Jeremy Roenick. However, just because I do not post with spot on accuracy does not mean I am trolling or deserved to be crapped on. Everyone makes mistakse. The boards are not restricted to people who have photographic memories. There are no rules about making mistakes.

I've been at HF for around 3 years, there have never been fans who post with spot on accuracy. Heck, on another board, people were bringing up old posts of people saying how the Doug Weight trade was great and Marty Reasoner was gonna be a 70-point getter. They were wrong. Does that make them any less allowable to post than you?

(Besides, Momentai, I highly doubt you've gone a year on this board and made no mistakes in a post - ever. I notice you didn't note that I, later in the thread, noted I did make a mistake, and thanked the person that corrected me)

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10-07-2003, 03:49 PM
  #71
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At least Mizral has a pulse... unlike a lot of posters on this board and I'm not speaking of anyone specifically who's contributed to this thread.

Personally, I'd rather read someone's comment who displayed a bit of emotion and in the end they were proven to be wrong than some drone who did nothing but quoted the 'facts'.

But hey, that's just me. Call me an emotional rebel if you must.

 
Old
10-07-2003, 04:24 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Mizral
Simple criticism becomes trolling when it becomes a post that is only made to bring people out. For instance, had I posted, 'Lowe sucks, the Oilers sucks, the Oiler fans suck', that's trolling. However, I brought up points & reasons why I thought so.
I never once stated that you were trolling on the Oilers board. Not once. I was merely disputing the fact that your arguments were a more than simple unbiased criticism. If you feel that I implied that in any fashion I apologize. I merely wanted to point out that some of your criticisms are based on broad over-generalizations on the Oilers part and that is unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I don't know half the prospects in the organization? Okay, I know that's a hyperbole, but don't you think it's kind of strange that you are insulting me for not posting 100% accuratly when you don't, either? Do you honestly think I don't know half the Oilers prospects in the system?
Frankly, yes. Heck, I don't think I know well enough about 3/5 of the prospects in the organization drafted within the last 3 years. Even Aspin probably wouldn't have total information either and he reads more about our prosects than I do. Do you really believe you know that many prosepcts in the Canucks system well enough?

Lowe and Prendergast have only been drafting for 3 years. It's think it's entirely fair to wait a while before you deem their drafting shoddy... as many of their picks are still in college or still developing overseas. It's simply way too short of a timeframe to accurately judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I have made errors on conract terms & length, as well as mistakes in all sorts of areas. I once thought Josh Holden would turn into Jeremy Roenick. However, just because I do not post with spot on accuracy does not mean I am trolling or deserved to be crapped on. Everyone makes mistakse. The boards are not restricted to people who have photographic memories. There are no rules about making mistakes.
That is not the issue here. Everyone does indeed make erors in regards to contract length/terms. However, it is quite a different situation to base widespread opinions on an entire organization on those errors. If you want to condemn an organization on another board, you had probably better get those facts straight first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Heck, on another board, people were bringing up old posts of people saying how the Doug Weight trade was great and Marty Reasoner was gonna be a 70-point getter. They were wrong. Does that make them any less allowable to post than you?
As I addressed earlier, it doesn't matter that projections or contract lengths are in error by a poster. It matters when you use those errors to try and paint an organization into an entirely differently light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
(Besides, Momentai, I highly doubt you've gone a year on this board and made no mistakes in a post - ever. I notice you didn't note that I, later in the thread, noted I did make a mistake, and thanked the person that corrected me)
I never said I did. I am not wholly perfect by any means. Not even close. Well, then it's good that you thanked the person for your mistake. I'll acknowledge you here on it. But not everything is a glaring error... what if it's a generalization that isn't true for the most part or half truth? Those are not as obvious to pick out.

Look, I don't consider Lowe an elite GM like a lot of the other posters on the Oilers board. Not even close. I think he's pretty average to a little above average at this point. But the thing is that I feel he's learning the role and he's getting better at the postion than when he started.

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10-07-2003, 04:26 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jewelly
At least Mizral has a pulse... unlike a lot of posters on this board and I'm not speaking of anyone specifically who's contributed to this thread.

Personally, I'd rather read someone's comment who displayed a bit of emotion and in the end they were proven to be wrong than some drone who did nothing but quoted the 'facts'.
I've always liked you Jewelly as a poster... But if you feel that I have "no pulse" and "devoid of emotion", then I guess there's nothing I can say.

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10-07-2003, 04:44 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by momentai
I've always liked you Jewelly as a poster... But if you feel that I have "no pulse" and "devoid of emotion", then I guess there's nothing I can say.
Oh no no no. I wasn't referring to you at all. Absolutely not.

Geesh, these messageboard mixups have been a bit of a problem for me these days hasn't it. I wasn't even thinking about you when I made my comment. Actually I was referring to 'some' posters who have recently shown up on THIS board.

It used to be much more relaxed around here. Posters got along really well, we just spouted off what we were thinking about at the moment, even if the idea was crazy; nobody jumped all over you.

Lately, I just find that a lot of the 'Nucks fans are really critical of each other. People quite quickly criticize others' comments instead of analyzing them. Others seem to think that they control what should be posted and what shouldn't and when. Sense of humour is scarce.

The once casual, friendly and fun atmosphere that once made this board stand out from others and made other posters want to visit is now tense and kind of unfriendly imo.

No momentei (sp?) my comment was in no way shape or form directed to you.

 
Old
10-07-2003, 05:22 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by momentai
But at what point does simple criticism go beyond simple criticism? It is one thing to judge the Oilers' organization based on facts and substantial evidence. It is quite another to make broad-sweeping generalizations without proper knowledge of the facts first.

I've noticed glaring errors in Mizral's arguments lately that have very little basis in reality. He calls Lowe's drafting spotty yet he doesn't really even know half the prospects in the oragnization besides the ones most mentioned. He makes errors in contract terms and length and glosses them over when called upon. It's things like that that irks Oilers fans like me more than anything. I've been at HF for over a year and it wasn't always like this, though, for Mizral. I wonder what changed.
First of all, what do you mean "beyond simple criticsm"?

You can judge anything based on anything you want because your supporting arguments are going to be based on opinion or an interpretation of factual events, and therefore, your conclusion will be just that, an opinion. Mizral calls Lowe's drafting spotty but so what? Disagree with what he says, support your position, and move on. It's just that easy. People are going to have different opinions on prospects and GMs and so on.... it's a given... and they still have the right to have that opinion.

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