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Old
10-07-2003, 05:31 PM
  #76
Lard_Lad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewelly
At least Mizral has a pulse... unlike a lot of posters on this board and I'm not speaking of anyone specifically who's contributed to this thread.
Oh, so you're saying vampires, zombies, ghouls, mummies, and assorted other undead can't be good forum members just because they happen to be pulse-impaired? Pretty narrow-minded of you, young lady. *shakes head sadly*

Remember, folks, just because someone's been raised from the dead via some form of black magic and has become an unspeakably evil walking corpse doesn't mean they're incapable of discussing the Canucks. I mean, just look at Tony Gallagher.

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10-07-2003, 05:38 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
Oh, so you're saying vampires, zombies, ghouls, mummies, and assorted other undead can't be good forum members just because they happen to be pulse-impaired? Pretty narrow-minded of you, young lady. *shakes head sadly*

Remember, folks, just because someone's been raised from the dead via some form of black magic and has become an unspeakably evil walking corpse doesn't mean they're incapable of discussing the Canucks. I mean, just look at Tony Gallagher.

I thought she was referring to me because I feel like I post with little emotion most of the time and I don't crack a lot of jokes. In fact, I think I get a little too calm on these boards.

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10-07-2003, 05:58 PM
  #78
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Momentai, just three points and I'm sure we can move on:

#1 - I don't think my mistakes were that grevious. Mistaking Dopita as a free agent signing when it was actually a trade, and a minor one at that, and thinking Lowe was around in the '99 draft. The fact that he wasn't only made my case stronger, I thought. But that's not an issue to get into here

#2 - You'd be surprised how close we are on this issue. You feel Lowe is average to above average. I feel he is average to below-average. Is it really so far apart?

#3 - Sports fans can get pretty relentless when it comes to defending their team, but particularly, defending their GM. Remember Calgary fans with Craig Button? It wasn't until the day he was fired when the vocal majority finally conceeded he stunk.

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Old
10-07-2003, 06:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jewelly
No momentei (sp?) my comment was in no way shape or form directed to you.
Ok, I was really just on the defensive and I guess I shouldn't have assumed that. My nick is right on the screen, Jewelly. :p How could you spell it wrong? Man, maybe I should get people to call me Don... it's my name and I guess it's shorter and easier to spell.. If you get that wrong, then there's no hope for you then.

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10-07-2003, 06:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by cc
I thought she was referring to me because I feel like I post with little emotion most of the time and I don't crack a lot of jokes. In fact, I think I get a little too calm on these boards.
No, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone else specifically; just in general. The mood seems to have changed from a friendly fun board to a somewhat uptight one lately.

Maybe I just need a break away for a while. Yeah, that's probably a good idea. I think I'll take my own advice. Gotta tend to some family matters anyway.

 
Old
10-07-2003, 07:02 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by cc
First of all, what do you mean "beyond simple criticsm"?
It is things such as these.

For example... Brian Burke is a not a very competent GM. He's already had a major holdout with Peter Schaefer where he's created animosity between a player and the team where they should have been none, and burned his bridges with Klatt, Murray Baron and Cassels.. It is probably hard on the players to want to deal with Burke as a GM when contracts roll around because of this fact. There's probably a bad feeling among the players because of this because of the treatment of their fellow teammates.

You could say that it was just my opinion... but it's not really a fair portrayal I would think. I take a couple of things that are indeed true and elevate it to something more.

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Old
10-07-2003, 07:26 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
#1 - I don't think my mistakes were that grevious. Mistaking Dopita as a free agent signing when it was actually a trade, and a minor one at that, and thinking Lowe was around in the '99 draft. The fact that he wasn't only made my case stronger, I thought. But that's not an issue to get into here
Lowe and Prendergast began their regime in 2001 with the Hemsky draft.

Hemsky was a guy that Prendergast desperately wanted. A prospect's development time can take 3-4 years especially if they are playing overseas or in college... College is something the Oilers have focused on for a while now.

I've merely stated that it really isn't fair to judge Lowe on his drafting ability based on 3 years of drafting... How do you really judge Lowe when guys like Matt Greene is in college, Deslauriers is stil in Juniors, Kenny Smith is in college, Niinimaki is in Finland, Pouliot is in the Q, etc. You judge the quality of a drafting team from results and it's fairly early to tell one way or another at this point. You're right though. We shouldn't get into this right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
#2 - You'd be surprised how close we are on this issue. You feel Lowe is average to above average. I feel he is average to below-average. Is it really so far apart?
No, not really surprised. But I think you might be at the lower extreme of your range and I at the higher end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
#3 - Sports fans can get pretty relentless when it comes to defending their team, but particularly, defending their GM. Remember Calgary fans with Craig Button? It wasn't until the day he was fired when the vocal majority finally conceeded he stunk.
I guess. But there were a lot of dissenters after the whole Savard debacle. Add to that their woeful performances of late, it isn't really a surprise.

I just didn't agree with these points...

"Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls."

Doomed the franchise? It looks like the Oilers have been doing alright for the time being. Might be a little overexaggerating here to reinforce your point.

"Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy."

Not especially. At the time, Lowe and the Oilers knew they needed some size at the pivot. It was certainly gamble but it didn't cost the Oilers anything significant. If it was successful and the Oilers had a competent 2nd line center, everyone would be calling Lowe a genius. The fact of the matter is that it was a low risk/high reward situation. I commend him on wanting to try and make a difference and being proactive.

"He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). "

This one is horribly, horribly unfair to Lowe. All of those players are being paid less than Weight at the moment because those players wanted it... Weight wanted 8 million dollars and whether it be Burke, Muckler, or Button... I doubt any of those GMs would be able to change his mind. To single out Lowe for not being able to keep him at that price is unfair because I don't believe you could find one GM in the league that could talk Doug Weight out of getting his money especially after he saw the Roenick signing.

"Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much"

Brewer's contract is not bad considering the aribitration settlements to dmen this year. Berard had a fairly heft settlement as did Poti. I'm pretty sure Brewer's contract would have been in the 2.5 million dollar range as well. Moreau's signing is pretty good IMO. I don't necessarily approve of keeping Moreau around but the numbers look fine. A good third liner making 1.2 million a year looks reasonable to me.

But you're right. I hope this is the end of things. I don't mind if you post things that are negative... Heck, I was not a popular man when I was outraged at the trade deadline last year. Just make sure that you've got something that has got a lot more meat to it. I hope we're done here.

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Old
10-07-2003, 08:54 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
It is things such as these.

For example... Brian Burke is a not a very competent GM. He's already had a major holdout with Peter Schaefer where he's created animosity between a player and the team where they should have been none, and burned his bridges with Klatt, Murray Baron and Cassels.. It is probably hard on the players to want to deal with Burke as a GM when contracts roll around because of this fact. There's probably a bad feeling among the players because of this because of the treatment of their fellow teammates.

You could say that it was just my opinion... but it's not really a fair portrayal I would think. I take a couple of things that are indeed true and elevate it to something more.
Unfortunately, this example will not help your argument. This is pretty much verbatim what a great deal of Canuck fans say and feel about Burke! The thing is, those are somewhat valid points to lesser or greater degrees, so if you (not that you do agree... I understand), believe these to be important with regards to how a GM should deport himself, while I see them as inconsiquential, then we are free to disagree! One needent think less of someone just because they can't see the obviousness of our arguements.

The best thing about dissagreement over things like this is they often serve as a good sounding board for disseminating info on the team. The interesting thing about facts is they can be twisted or "interpreted" to support some fairly bizzare logic. In a good discussion, the more rational position tends to win over more readers... as is the case with the Kevin Lowe thread on the Oilers Board. I ended up feeling that Lowe actually may have more of a plan for the club, and he certainly does need more time before we should be judging his drafting. Some of his more unusual moves were done to change the organization, bring in new faces and make players aware they have to work for what they want. Sure he's crapped on himself a couple of times, but what GM hasn't?

All in all, I think these boards are pretty informative, and I think Jewelly will find things lighten up once the real games are played with more regularity. It's like we're all kids stuck in a car just about to arrive... after a three month drive! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,

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Old
10-07-2003, 09:45 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewelly
No, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone else specifically; just in general. The mood seems to have changed from a friendly fun board to a somewhat uptight one lately.

Maybe I just need a break away for a while. Yeah, that's probably a good idea. I think I'll take my own advice. Gotta tend to some family matters anyway.
I was just kidding Jewelly, I didn't really think you were talking about me... I'm not that egocentric. I didn't really notice that the board has become uptight but then again, I haven't really posted as often as I did earlier.


I'm sure things will get better once the actual season starts.

you can't take a break now of all times.. the season has started... we need you to lead the cheer.

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10-07-2003, 09:49 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
It is things such as these.

For example... Brian Burke is a not a very competent GM. He's already had a major holdout with Peter Schaefer where he's created animosity between a player and the team where they should have been none, and burned his bridges with Klatt, Murray Baron and Cassels.. It is probably hard on the players to want to deal with Burke as a GM when contracts roll around because of this fact. There's probably a bad feeling among the players because of this because of the treatment of their fellow teammates.

You could say that it was just my opinion... but it's not really a fair portrayal I would think. I take a couple of things that are indeed true and elevate it to something more.
fair or not, it is your opinioin and you are entitled to it. I've read enough of these kind of things from other canuck fans and have posted some of these kinds of criticisms myself so they are nothing new. If everyone started agreeing on everything, it makes for very dull discussions.

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Old
10-08-2003, 10:43 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Unfortunately, this example will not help your argument. This is pretty much verbatim what a great deal of Canuck fans say and feel about Burke! The thing is, those are somewhat valid points to lesser or greater degrees, so if you (not that you do agree... I understand), believe these to be important with regards to how a GM should deport himself, while I see them as inconsiquential, then we are free to disagree!
I could have done much worse.. but I see your point. It's just something I personally feel is wrong.. to "twist the facts" as it were. But maybe that's just me. I think we're done here though.

Don't worry about Jewelly. She just needs her Naslund fix. :p

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Old
10-08-2003, 10:18 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
I could have done much worse.. but I see your point. It's just something I personally feel is wrong.. to "twist the facts" as it were. But maybe that's just me. I think we're done here though.

Don't worry about Jewelly. She just needs her Naslund fix. :p
Twisting the facts out of ignorance, not malice, shouldn't be a huge problem on these boards.

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Old
10-10-2003, 10:30 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Twisting the facts out of ignorance, not malice, shouldn't be a huge problem on these boards.
If it were we would all have to give up our day jobs to keep current. I have one more thing to add to this though. When I am on the Oiler board as an Oiler forum I feel that I am entitled to post my opinions as frankly as my mood and the beer I have just finished lead me to. We are family and all have the good of the team as our number one priority. When I stray around the league to see what is happening and feel like I would like to make observations I put on my 'public politeness' hat. I don't say *&%# when I introduce myself and I don't call members or fans of other teams idiots or dumb or anything else that is inflammatory. It used to be called manners although I know that using that word dates me. So I might not like Burke's diatribes and I might think that Crawford's coaching technique gives him a shorter shelf life than other approaches but I recognize that as an 'outsider' I should either keep such opinions to myself or at least express them in a respectful manner. If you are a moderator I think the standard is even higher and that, Mizral is why you are so disliked on the Oiler board. Because you show no respect for the fact that it is our board. Who knows, maybe you will turn out to be right that our coach and GM aren't worth a pinch of pig poop but that is not the point. I might think and say that my sister is a fat lazy *&%# but even if you think it you should have enough manners to say it in a different way. Just my (and pretty much everybody else on the Oiler board's) opinion. So feel free to come visit but if you can't be civil please don't go all sensitive on us and complain that you didn't mean anything.

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Old
10-10-2003, 11:22 AM
  #89
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I don't think the feelings are justified. Alluding Lowe & MacTavish to your sister is kind of strange. Example: If you liked shopping at K-Mart and I said the guy that runs K-Mart is a *****, would you instantly think I'm a jackass?

Posters (Canucks fans and others alike) have come in here and posted how they don't like Burke or Crawford. Fans need to learn how to deal with criticism in better ways than simply a 'with us or against us' philosophy.

Furthermore, while some may not like me on the Oilers board, I have received plenty of PM's saying people quite enjoy reading my posts there.

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Old
10-10-2003, 11:41 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I don't think the feelings are justified. Alluding Lowe & MacTavish to your sister is kind of strange. Example: If you liked shopping at K-Mart and I said the guy that runs K-Mart is a *****, would you instantly think I'm a jackass?

Posters (Canucks fans and others alike) have come in here and posted how they don't like Burke or Crawford. Fans need to learn how to deal with criticism in better ways than simply a 'with us or against us' philosophy.

Furthermore, while some may not like me on the Oilers board, I have received plenty of PM's saying people quite enjoy reading my posts there.
I doubt if that has happened lately. When Lowetide (Oiler Moderator) says he has had enough you gotta know that you crossed a line. He is the closest thing to a voice of reason I've ever seen on any board. But I know that you will never accept this because that is how you are.

There used to be an old joke about a mother watching a parade with her son Johnny in it. "Oh," she says as they get close to her, "everybody is out of step but my son, Johnny."

After the last little kerfuffle over on the Oilers board the nicest thing anybody had to say about you ( and pretty well everybody had something to say) is that you USED to make good posts. Maybe you should think about that.

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Old
10-10-2003, 12:07 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by theoil
I doubt if that has happened lately. When Lowetide (Oiler Moderator) says he has had enough you gotta know that you crossed a line. He is the closest thing to a voice of reason I've ever seen on any board. But I know that you will never accept this because that is how you are.

There used to be an old joke about a mother watching a parade with her son Johnny in it. "Oh," she says as they get close to her, "everybody is out of step but my son, Johnny."

After the last little kerfuffle over on the Oilers board the nicest thing anybody had to say about you ( and pretty well everybody had something to say) is that you USED to make good posts. Maybe you should think about that.
You seem to be really bothered by Mizral; more than the norm I'd say. If you find his posts upsetting, then you have the option of not reading them, putting him on your Ignore list or private messaging him. If the latter were the case though, you'd have to turn on your pm option.

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10-10-2003, 06:06 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
I doubt if that has happened lately. When Lowetide (Oiler Moderator) says he has had enough you gotta know that you crossed a line. He is the closest thing to a voice of reason I've ever seen on any board. But I know that you will never accept this because that is how you are.

There used to be an old joke about a mother watching a parade with her son Johnny in it. "Oh," she says as they get close to her, "everybody is out of step but my son, Johnny."

After the last little kerfuffle over on the Oilers board the nicest thing anybody had to say about you ( and pretty well everybody had something to say) is that you USED to make good posts. Maybe you should think about that.
I kind of hear what you're saying about being polite and all... I suppose I tend to try and express myself in a rather more pleasant manner, but having read, and enjoyed most of what was written on the "Lowe Thread", I tend to think you are overreacting.

It seems to me that Mizral doesn't like the way Kevin Lowe has run and organized his team. He definitely was blunt with his opinion, but in doing so, came off as less than adequately informed on a couple of occassions. Though shown his errors, he still chose to stick with his original conclusion of Lowe. I found the rebutals, for the most part, to be helpful and informative and in the end, solidified my sense that though Lowe has made some mistakes, he does have a direction for the team, and is following it. What kind of discussion could be better than that? As a guy who enjoys reading around the boards, I now have a fairly good idea of what different Oilers fans think.

I guess what I'm saying, is that being blunt is not necessarily being rude, or even inconciderate. I certainly don't take someone elses opinion of the Canucks personally, especially when there may be some merit to what they are saying, and that it hastens a vigorous debate. That thread was far and away the most informative and interesting to read that I've come across lately.

I also don't really understand why being a moderator should require one to be less opinionated. Admittedly I've really only read Mizerals posts on that one thread, so he could have been worse in others... but he never said anything that I would take as personally insulting or rude.

Let's not be afraid of giving our opinions... if it is venting, then intelligent rebutals usually make the venter look shallow and or ignorant. What could be better than that?

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Old
10-10-2003, 06:56 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
After the last little kerfuffle over on the Oilers board the nicest thing anybody had to say about you ( and pretty well everybody had something to say) is that you USED to make good posts. Maybe you should think about that.
As quat mentioned, I love a lot of the Oiler players, love the fans - but you guys on this messageboard must learn to seperate the team from a person. Honestly, if you guys didn't know I was a Canuck fan, would you have reacted differently? I think I would have received much different reactions.

The only reason I did as you say here is because of these overreactions. I don't mind changing the way I post there.

Also, don't act like I'm so hard-headed. I have changed my mind on my own opinions often. But I'm pretty solid in my belief that I said nothing that was personally inflammatory or insulting to anyone there, yet I received insults left and right throughout the thread.

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Old
10-11-2003, 11:09 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
But I'm pretty solid in my belief that I said nothing that was personally inflammatory or insulting to anyone there, yet I received insults left and right throughout the thread.
I think we are all in agreement that you don't get it.

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Old
10-11-2003, 11:15 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by theoil
I think we are all in agreement that you don't get it.
"We" being the voices inside your head?

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10-11-2003, 12:11 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
"We" being the voices inside your head?
Ahh, the child speaks.

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