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Old
03-29-2014, 03:20 AM
  #101
shoop
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
That's so wrong. When the government builds low income housing or gives permits for several soup kitchens to be built within a few blocks of each other what do you think they're doing? These are both planned and deliberate. Look at the addresses of the Hope Mission at 9908-106 Ave, Boyle Street Community Services at 10116 105 Ave, the Bissell Center at 10527 96 st, the Mustard Seed at 10568 114 St etc. 105 Ave or 106 Ave shows up on all their addresses, does that seem like a fluke to you?
Not a fluke, but a natural outcome of a few forces. The government doesn't build the low income housing. Yes, they play a big role in funding, but they aren't leading the projects. The biggest providers of non-market housing in the city are the following groups: the Homeward Trust, the Capital Region Housing Corporation and the Edmonton Inner City Housing Society.

These groups have to obtain the land on their own within the funding guidelines provided by the province. While they get most of their funding from the government, they don't get it all. It comes down to a matter of economics. Land in these distressed neighbourhoods are the cheapest in the city, allowing for the most housing to be provided. Or the cheapest locale for a 'soup kitchen'.

The Boyle - McCauley community league vehemently fights new development and the city listens to them.

The services for low income people exist in these areas because that's where they live, and they choose to live in these areas because that's where the services are. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself without planning.

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It's not like they put these in Strathearn or Royal Glenora.
Two interesting neighbourhoods to choose. Glenora has lots and lots of money. Strathearn, aside from Strathearn Drive ... not nearly so much. The Strathearn Apartments are a huge part of that area and aren't too wealthy. In fact, the plan for re-developing that complex actually does have a low-income component to it. So there will be official low-income housing in Strathearn if that development ever happens. (That townhouse complex just on the northeastern side of the Bonnie Doon traffic circle is pretty ghetto, although I think that is technically Holyrood and not Strathearn.)

For what it would cost to build a 3-bedroom townhouse in Royal Glenora, you could probably house three times as many people in Norwood. The best use of taxpayer funding is putting the housing in Norwood over Glenora. So the housing and services for low-income people naturally end up concentrating in certain neighbourhoods. No central planning required.

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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
They put them on the fringes of downtown in sketchy areas where these people live or stay so they have easy access to their services.
You're correct, but arguing against yourself. Yes, they are providing people who need the services with easy access. No, it's not part of some grand master plan.

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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
These things don't happen in a vacuum. Developers choose not to revitalize an older area when the market isn't there and the city chooses not to give these developers sweet incentives to revitalize these areas when the market wasn't there.
Again, you are correct for the most part but in so doing you are your basic argument to be wrong. These areas aren't being developed because it doesn't make sense to do so. They aren't economically viable and the 'sweet incentives' would have to be outrageously expensive and wasteful of taxpayer dollars to get major development in these neighbourhoods. Is it a smart choice by the city not to pour big money into sweet incentives to develop these areas? For the most part yes as government money is always stretched thin. Is it part of a conscious decision to keep poor people concentrated in particular area of the city? Absolutely not!

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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Now that a major project has been dropped into this area people are talking about revitalization of the poor area.
Revitalization will happen because of market forces. Events at Rogers will lead to more bars and restaurants being built because businessmen can make money off people attending the events. The land around the rink will become more sought after, therefore more valuable and the area will be revitalized. The lower income areas of the city will end up being more densely populated as a result of land values right around the rink shooting up, forcing the lower income residents out of the area. Where will they go? They will go where they can afford to, which is current lower income areas. Leading to those areas become more concentrated. No conscious decision needed by the city. The invisible hand of the market will lead to that outcome.


Last edited by shoop: 03-29-2014 at 03:26 AM.
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Old
03-29-2014, 05:33 PM
  #102
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Saturday March 29, 2014

I took a morning shot today in addition to the day shot. I think they started around 6 am. I noticed some rebar was being laid in the dug up ground in the middle of the site.


high resolution image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/41766162/Arena/GR-03-29-2014.jpg





high resolution image: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4...03-29-2014.jpg


Last edited by Slicknitty: 04-09-2014 at 06:57 PM. Reason: fixed secure links
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Old
03-29-2014, 05:39 PM
  #103
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I swear I've read conflicting reports. Are they tearing down the Baccarat? Or did they decide they don't need that space? Or just not tearing it down yet...

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03-29-2014, 06:12 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyFan#2 View Post
I swear I've read conflicting reports. Are they tearing down the Baccarat? Or did they decide they don't need that space? Or just not tearing it down yet...
The Casino will remain in operation in it's current location until their new facility opens (roughly concurrent with the arena opening) at which point the current building will be demolished and the land redeveloped into... Something.

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03-29-2014, 06:17 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Kodiak64 View Post
The Casino will remain in operation in it's current location until their new facility opens (roughly concurrent with the arena opening) at which point the current building will be demolished and the land redeveloped into... Something.
Is the new facility tied in with the facility? Or is it going elsewhere?

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03-29-2014, 06:38 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyFan#2 View Post
Is the new facility tied in with the facility? Or is it going elsewhere?
It will be adjacent to the arena site ("just north" of the current spot) and allegedly connected via pedway. They are currently in the planning stages and it's looking like a 3-4 storey building with the bottom 2 floors being the baccarat and the upper floor(s) being the Oilers offices (moving from kingsway)

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Old
03-30-2014, 05:38 PM
  #107
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Sunday March 30, 2014

Question for the construction experts: That rebar...is that preparation for a crane?



Full resolution:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/41766162/Arena/GR-03-30-2014.jpg


Last edited by Slicknitty: 04-09-2014 at 06:57 PM. Reason: fixed secure links
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Old
03-30-2014, 07:22 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Slicknitty View Post
That rebar...is that preparation for a crane?
It looks like they're making rebar cages for cast-in-place concrete piles.

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Old
03-31-2014, 11:31 AM
  #109
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Thanks Slicknitty, these updates are terrific.

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Old
03-31-2014, 03:23 PM
  #110
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Old
03-31-2014, 07:20 PM
  #111
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Monday March 31, 2014

Thanks guys

I bring to you very good news. The Edmonton Journal has installed a time lapse camera system at the top of Epcor Tower. It will be taking shots once every hour during the day; a time lapse video will be online showing the development as it happens (meaning you don't have to wait to watch it until the arena is completed, you can just watch it as they build it).

Also, it is a Gigapan setup, meaning it's going to be ridiculously detailed for the still panoramic shots they will be putting up.

I was told it will be online in another month or two as the photographer finishes testing his setup. It will be on the Journal's webpage when it's ready. There you have it!

Until then, my modest shots:



full resolution: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/13549619203_3a60411efe_o.jpg


Last edited by Slicknitty: 04-09-2014 at 06:57 PM. Reason: fixed secure links
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Old
03-31-2014, 07:28 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by shoop View Post
Not a fluke, but a natural outcome of a few forces. The government doesn't build the low income housing. Yes, they play a big role in funding, but they aren't leading the projects. The biggest providers of non-market housing in the city are the following groups: the Homeward Trust, the Capital Region Housing Corporation and the Edmonton Inner City Housing Society.

These groups have to obtain the land on their own within the funding guidelines provided by the province. While they get most of their funding from the government, they don't get it all. It comes down to a matter of economics. Land in these distressed neighbourhoods are the cheapest in the city, allowing for the most housing to be provided. Or the cheapest locale for a 'soup kitchen'.

When people fund you, they pretty much control the project; maybe not on paper but in reality. Don't make it seem like these things are just rubber stamped because some non-profits had a great proposal for funding. When you're getting money from different levels of government, or anyone really, usually they have a say in how and where the project takes shape. So it isn't just a matter of economics; often it comes down to the interests of the stakeholders. If a political party, or public official is up for reelection, it's nice to be able to point to a project they supported and say "see we ok'd this development, vote for us"

The Boyle - McCauley community league vehemently fights new development and the city listens to them.


If the city is listening, how is that not deliberate on the city's part?

Regarding a hotel that's being built just east of Canada Place. “A hotel like this will really impact on the inner city and bring more businesses to the area,” said Thim Choy, president of the Boyle Street Community League.

Here's a link to the article.

http://business.financialpost.com/20..._lsa=642e-ec86

Now it's just one quote, but it seems to me like the Boyle Street Community League WANTS redevelopment.

Here's another example. The Greater Edmonton Alliance fought the development of new subdivisions north of Clareview in late 2012 and early 2013 and lost. The city decided to listen to developers instead of the GEA (a community organization) who wanted to keep the area as farmland. If the city wanted to, they could just not listen to the community league in Boyle-McCauley when they argue against redevelopment. To say economics don't play a role in decision making is obviously naive and that's not what I'm arguing. What I am arguing is that the municipal government does decide how and where they'd like development to occur and then encourages the private sector to invest there.

Here's another example of what I mean about deliberate and planned. The city could have listened to many loud opponents of the arena development and this project would have never happened yet they decided to sink hundreds of millions into the project.


The services for low income people exist in these areas because that's where they live, and they choose to live in these areas because that's where the services are. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself without planning.

Agreed, except for the last part. By choosing to put a major project in a distressed area, the city has deliberately chosen to open the door to redeveloping the area. Of course the city isn't going to buy up all the land north of the arena but they know full well that within a decade the area will be drastically changed.....and that's the plan.


Two interesting neighbourhoods to choose. Glenora has lots and lots of money. Strathearn, aside from Strathearn Drive ... not nearly so much. The Strathearn Apartments are a huge part of that area and aren't too wealthy. In fact, the plan for re-developing that complex actually does have a low-income component to it. So there will be official low-income housing in Strathearn if that development ever happens. (That townhouse complex just on the northeastern side of the Bonnie Doon traffic circle is pretty ghetto, although I think that is technically Holyrood and not Strathearn.)

For what it would cost to build a 3-bedroom townhouse in Royal Glenora, you could probably house three times as many people in Norwood. The best use of taxpayer funding is putting the housing in Norwood over Glenora. So the housing and services for low-income people naturally end up concentrating in certain neighbourhoods. No central planning required.

Except that it's cheaper to build on empty land than to redevelop existing poor neighborhoods so the best use of taxpayer dollars is to build low income subdivisions farther from the city center where you can find empty land or cheaper land. Yet developers are turning empty land into expensive subdivisions further expanding suburbia instead of redeveloping what should be more valuable land in the inner city and selling it to rich kids who's parents live in Glenora.

You're correct, but arguing against yourself. Yes, they are providing people who need the services with easy access. No, it's not part of some grand master plan.



Again, you are correct for the most part but in so doing you are your basic argument to be wrong. These areas aren't being developed because it doesn't make sense to do so. They aren't economically viable and the 'sweet incentives' would have to be outrageously expensive and wasteful of taxpayer dollars to get major development in these neighbourhoods. Is it a smart choice by the city not to pour big money into sweet incentives to develop these areas? For the most part yes as government money is always stretched thin. Is it part of a conscious decision to keep poor people concentrated in particular area of the city? Absolutely not!



Revitalization will happen because of market forces. Events at Rogers will lead to more bars and restaurants being built because businessmen can make money off people attending the events. The land around the rink will become more sought after, therefore more valuable and the area will be revitalized. The lower income areas of the city will end up being more densely populated as a result of land values right around the rink shooting up, forcing the lower income residents out of the area. Where will they go? They will go where they can afford to, which is current lower income areas. Leading to those areas become more concentrated. No conscious decision needed by the city. The invisible hand of the market will lead to that outcome.
You just argued my point to its logical conclusion. The arena's placement on 104 Ave is deliberate. There were arguments made for its placement in several other locations in and around downtown that the city owned. City Council was well aware of the spin off effect of having the arena placed in this or that location. This market was ready for a new arena, the City of Edmonton has a downtown that needs to be revitalized to encourage more investment but let's be honest; the market here needs a push to speed things up. Market forces weren't going to revitalize downtown all on their own so the city teamed up with the Katz group to give revitalization a big push.

By extension, having an anchor project in the east part of downtown is also going to help revitalization. The hotel is a completely private project but the city jumped on board and decided to pump money into the area's infrastructure to further push the redevelopment forward. Developers and politicians talk and deals are struck. That's how business works. This is what I mean by planned and deliberate.

Your use of central planning and invisible hand is a pretty poor backhanded attempt at discrediting my argument as though politics aren't part of the planning process; or that politicians and developers aren't aware of likely outcomes of placing major projects here or there. I'm not some commie ideologue arguing that the bourgeoisie city council has some "grand master plan" to keep areas of the city poor so they can make a buck or two at the poor's expense.

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04-01-2014, 07:51 PM
  #113
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Full resolution: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4...01-2014-GR.jpg


Last edited by Slicknitty: 04-09-2014 at 06:58 PM. Reason: fixed secure links
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Old
04-01-2014, 08:05 PM
  #114
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Slicknitty, you're doing some real fine work up there.
Keep it up, love seeing the updates.

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04-01-2014, 08:24 PM
  #115
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"[QUOTE=Slicknitty;82601717]Monday March 31, 2014

Thanks guys

I bring to you very good news. The Edmonton Journal has installed a time lapse camera system at the top of Epcor Tower. It will be taking shots once every hour during the day; a time lapse video will be online showing the development as it happens (meaning you don't have to wait to watch it until the arena is completed, you can just watch it as they build it).

Also, it is a Gigapan setup, meaning it's going to be ridiculously detailed for the still panoramic shots they will be putting up.

I was told it will be online in another month or two as the photographer finishes testing his setup. It will be on the Journal's webpage when it's ready. There you have it!"

Gigapan will be awesome,... you will be able to zoom in on any spot on the image, might even be able to recognize. friends you have that work there..


Thanks for the info..Slicknitty...

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04-01-2014, 08:28 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicknitty View Post
Monday March 31, 2014

Thanks guys

I bring to you very good news. The Edmonton Journal has installed a time lapse camera system at the top of Epcor Tower. It will be taking shots once every hour during the day; a time lapse video will be online showing the development as it happens (meaning you don't have to wait to watch it until the arena is completed, you can just watch it as they build it).

Also, it is a Gigapan setup, meaning it's going to be ridiculously detailed for the still panoramic shots they will be putting up.

I was told it will be online in another month or two as the photographer finishes testing his setup. It will be on the Journal's webpage when it's ready. There you have it!

Until then, my modest shots:



full resolution: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/...60411efe_o.jpg
Very cool, thanks for the update.

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Old
04-02-2014, 07:07 AM
  #117
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Is there going to be a parking level below ice level?

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04-02-2014, 07:20 AM
  #118
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Is there going to be a parking level below ice level?
Yes but not much.1900 stalls. So they look to be pushing for LRT use.


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Old
04-02-2014, 02:06 PM
  #119
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Yes but not much.1900 stalls. So they look to be pushing for LRT use.
There's a lot of parking downtown too that's going to be empty in the evening. So aside from pushing to use LRT, parking will be available not too far from the arena.

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04-02-2014, 02:08 PM
  #120
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lol. So just to be clear the Oilers are suppose to start the 2016/17 season in the new rink. So two more years to get good right?

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04-02-2014, 02:25 PM
  #121
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lol. So just to be clear the Oilers are suppose to start the 2016/17 season in the new rink. So two more years to get good right?
Yeah. Sad that Rexall probably saw its last playoff game in 2006.

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04-02-2014, 06:08 PM
  #122
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Full resolution: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4...02-2014-GR.jpg


Last edited by Slicknitty: 04-09-2014 at 06:58 PM. Reason: fixed secure links
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Old
04-02-2014, 06:51 PM
  #123
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Yeah. Sad that Rexall probably saw its last playoff game in 2006.
probably? lol

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04-03-2014, 12:42 AM
  #124
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probably? lol
Well, always next year.

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04-03-2014, 01:11 AM
  #125
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People should throw jerseys in there.

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