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O'Neil vs Kovalev

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Old
08-15-2005, 09:12 PM
  #51
KOMO_ROCKS
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I definately think Kovalev is a better fit in Montreal than O'Neil. Kovalev is a top 10 player in the league when he wants to be and has a ton of skill. I would take him over O'Neil easily.

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08-15-2005, 09:48 PM
  #52
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I would take Shaquille O'Neal over Kovalev any day.

These threads remind me of the myriad of "Who is better, Souray or McCabe, Markov or Kaberle, Koivu or Sundin, Antropov or a polar bear on skates?" which go on for pages and pages with homers from each side insisting their player is miles ahead of the other when there's hardly a definitive answer (well, actually I think Sundin and the polar bear are clearly better, but let's not get started there). Oh, and then occasionally there's a troll pretending to be a fan of one team claiming that the other team's players are vastly better.

Of course, in this case the comparison really isn't fair. O'Neill's best asset is a wickedly hard and accurate slapshot, so no wonder he struggled with an injured shoulder last season (and he can play center, not that he'll need to on the Leafs). Kovalev has amazing stickhandling and generally more balanced offensive skills.

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08-15-2005, 09:49 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour
I would take Shaquille O'Neal over Kovalev any day.

These threads remind me of the myriad of "Who is better, Souray or McCabe, Markov or Kaberle, Koivu or Sundin, Antropov or a polar bear on skates?" which go on for pages and pages with homers from each side insisting their player is miles ahead of the other when there's hardly a definitive answer (well, actually I think Sundin and the polar bear are clearly better, but let's not get started there). Oh, and then occasionally there's a troll pretending to be a fan of one team claiming that the other team's players are vastly better.

Of course, in this case the comparison really isn't fair. O'Neill's best asset is a wickedly hard and accurate slapshot, so no wonder he struggled with an injured shoulder last season (and he can play center, not that he'll need to on the Leafs). Kovalev has amazing stickhandling and generally more balanced offensive skills.
Boy, you surely don't know much about hockey do you.

Oh, and for the record, you could compare Kovalevs blistering wrist shot with Oneils blistering slap shot.

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08-20-2005, 01:20 AM
  #54
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Not trying to start a flame war but weren't all of Kovalev's big seasons with Mario Lemieux? He was basically been a 50 point man the last couple of years. The playoff point spurt was nice but it hardly establishes a new level of play. He is a huge questionmark and not even injuries to blame for it. O'Neill has been more consistent until 03-04 so I would think he has a better shot at having a good year. Having said that, if both players played as well as they could Kovalev seems to have more of an upside. At his best O'Neill never approached a point a game so if he had a great year it will only means 65 pts. If the stats support one thing it's that Kovalev in general has decent playoffs and that is a reason to want him on your team right there. With a $4.5 million salary coming off a 45pt season the Habs management obviously think he has some big years coming up but you wonder if they had to pay him quite that much. Look at what Forsberg cost the Flyers. I know he had a concussion over in Sweden but he is a potential scoring champion. I would take Kovalev before O'Neill but not for the $3 million difference in salary.

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08-20-2005, 01:27 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck
Not trying to start a flame war but weren't all of Kovalev's big seasons with Mario Lemieux? He was basically been a 50 point man the last couple of years. The playoff point spurt was nice but it hardly establishes a new level of play. He is a huge questionmark and not even injuries to blame for it. O'Neill has been more consistent until 03-04 so I would think he has a better shot at having a good year. Having said that, if both players played as well as they could Kovalev seems to have more of an upside. At his best O'Neill never approached a point a game so if he had a great year it will only means 65 pts. If the stats support one thing it's that Kovalev in general has decent playoffs and that is a reason to want him on your team right there. With a $4.5 million salary coming off a 45pt season the Habs management obviously think he has some big years coming up but you wonder if they had to pay him quite that much. Look at what Forsberg cost the Flyers. I know he had a concussion over in Sweden but he is a potential scoring champion. I would take Kovalev before O'Neill but not for the $3 million difference in salary.
kovy

11 playoffs games --- 10 points

i never seen mario on the ice with kovy at all

i agree tho Jeff O`Neill came cheap for the only reason he wanted to be in toronto
dont think he would have signed in montreal for 1.5 million


also he just got nabbed march 2005 " again " his second time for drunk driving
yes the first time in 1998 he got off

dont think he will this time tho

pretty daming evidence but hey oj simpson is innocent right?



- open liquor in car
- strong odor coming from car
-running stop sign
- pee'in in a mall parking lot
-refusing breath alyzer or blood test
-disorderly conduct




He was also charged with failing to stop for a stop sign and transporting an open container of alcohol.

The arresting officer saw O'Neill urinate in the parking lot of a shopping center and then drive past a stop sign without stopping.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2011838




http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...+driving&hl=en


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Old
08-20-2005, 02:08 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
It could go either way. Going by the past, I say they are approximately equal in terms of overall impact... Kovalev has more pure offensive upside, but O'Neill brings a bit more grit and tenacity.

They are also both headcases, and it's hard to figure out what they will actually bring on any given night or in any given season. Either one could be a big bust too.

So given all that, the guy who gets paid $1.5M for just 1 year is, on paper, the better deal than the guy getting $4.5M for 4 years. Toronto has a potential 30-goal 60-pt guy with grit, or a potential nutjob bust, with low cost and no longterm risk. We have a potential 40-goal 80-pt slickster, or a potential floater bust, at a huge cost, stuck against our cap for 4 years. Your call as to which upside is better, but obviously our downside is much much bigger.
Well said.

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08-20-2005, 07:52 AM
  #57
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O'neill is mainly about scoring goals, Kovalev brings much more to a team.

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08-20-2005, 08:09 AM
  #58
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O'neill do nothing in playoff (exept one year where he is not that good) . Kovalev is a lot better. He got 2 bad playoff but got also 4 very good playoff year.

O'neill :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...pid%5B%5D=4043

Kovalev :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...pid%5B%5D=2803

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08-20-2005, 08:59 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
If Kovalev actually decided to show up the majority of the time, I'd take him over Jeff on the Leafs but I'm estatic with O'Neill at 1.5 million rather than spending 3X the amount to sign Kovalev (even if we had salary cap room)
The leafs can no longer overpay anyone, so now it's look for guys who will take alot less than their market value...In the past the leafs have overpaid, and their fans laughed at othe rteams who signed guys to 1.5M contracts...but now that it's the leafs who have to find a cheap route, all of a sudden it's OK...Anyhow the question is Oneill vs Kovalev...they are both good fits for their clubs, but everyone knows that Kovalev is a top flite player, and if he is motivated, he will be a top flite player every night...

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08-20-2005, 09:03 AM
  #60
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Kovalev is a floater with good offensive abillity and O'Neill is a hardworker with good offensive abillity I'd take O'Neill over Kovalev.

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08-20-2005, 09:06 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsology
O'neill do nothing in playoff (exept one year where he is not that good) . Kovalev is a lot better. He got 2 bad playoff but got also 4 very good playoff year.

O'neill :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...pid%5B%5D=4043

Kovalev :

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...pid%5B%5D=2803
O'Neill played for Carolina he'd really never get the chance to help a team as bad as that, while Kovalev was on some talented and some bad Pittsburgh teams.

When the Canes went to the Stanley Cup finals a few years ago O'Neill was the reason now has Kovalev ever done this?

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08-20-2005, 09:26 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
O'Neill played for Carolina he'd really never get the chance to help a team as bad as that, while Kovalev was on some talented and some bad Pittsburgh teams.

When the Canes went to the Stanley Cup finals a few years ago O'Neill was the reason now has Kovalev ever done this?
I don't think you check the stats. Kovalev played very well in Playoff with Rangers and Canadien. In fact he got 2 bad playoff and it was with Pittsburg. O'neill always did a bad job in playoff. Never better stats then he got in season. And he was playing with the same team in season and playoff. Kovalev play better in playoff then season most of the time.

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08-20-2005, 09:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SuperMan313
Kovalev is a floater with good offensive abillity and O'Neill is a hardworker with good offensive abillity I'd take O'Neill over Kovalev.
O'neill is not an hardworker. Hurricane was trying to make a transaction for him because of that. And nobody was really interested. And today nobody is interested to give him more then 1.5 million because of that.

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08-20-2005, 11:21 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SuperMan313
When the Canes went to the Stanley Cup finals a few years ago O'Neill was the reason now has Kovalev ever done this?
My what short memories we have. O'Neill has 17 points in 34 career playoff games. Kovalev had already outscored those career numbers in his first playoff, getting 21 pts in 23 games, leading the Rangers to the finals and, oh yeah, winning the Stanley Cup. Has O'Neill ever done that?

Anyone who's picking O'Neill as a flat out better player is grasping at straws. Factor salary into it if you want, but by that same token I can argue Steve Begin is a better player than Peter Forsberg. After all, Begin can be counted on for 10 goals at $600k, whereas Forsberg makes 9x as much and sure as heck won't be getting 90 goals this year.

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08-20-2005, 11:50 AM
  #65
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For all the times I criticized Kovalev, if theres one thing you cant say its that he's not a playoff performer. Come spring time, theres not a lot of wingers who can play like he can. For that fact alone, he's probably a good signing. I like his skillset, I loved him in Pittsburgh, but hes gotta stay consistent a whole season, if he can do that, Toronto can keep its O'neil.

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08-20-2005, 07:55 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
Kovalev is a floater with good offensive abillity and O'Neill is a hardworker with good offensive abillity I'd take O'Neill over Kovalev.
You've demonstrated in a brief post why you're not a hockey GM. Even a weak GM like John Ferguson Jr was able to sign O'Neill for far less than a tough GM like Bob Gainey was willing to pay Kovalev for 4 years.

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08-20-2005, 07:59 PM
  #67
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So how many times has O'Neill ever taken a small little slash to the glove and allowing a goal to win a game in the friggin playoffs, hell this game put them on the brink of elimination.

And what happened to all those Habs fans outraged at Gainey for getting Kovalev because he was terrible in the Regular Season and the Tampa Bay series.

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08-20-2005, 09:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
So how many times has O'Neill ever taken a small little slash to the glove and allowing a goal to win a game in the friggin playoffs, hell this game put them on the brink of elimination.

And what happened to all those Habs fans outraged at Gainey for getting Kovalev because he was terrible in the Regular Season and the Tampa Bay series.
You should go home now How do you know the little slash wasn't a big oweeee?

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08-21-2005, 01:09 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SuperMan313
So how many times has O'Neill ever taken a small little slash to the glove and allowing a goal to win a game in the friggin playoffs, hell this game put them on the brink of elimination.
Ah, but you forget. After this event, there was much criticism from the fans and media (and probably also the locker room).

The thing is, and the reason why the majority of Habs fans wanted Kovalev back, is the way he responded. While he did put us in a position of elimination, we wouldn't have won that series without his exceptional play in the ensuing games. We need people who respond to that type of pressure.

The guy is a sick talent. There is only a comparison here because of the salary difference.

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08-21-2005, 01:18 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
So how many times has O'Neill ever taken a small little slash to the glove and allowing a goal to win a game in the friggin playoffs, hell this game put them on the brink of elimination.

And what happened to all those Habs fans outraged at Gainey for getting Kovalev because he was terrible in the Regular Season and the Tampa Bay series.
I think you should just root for your team instead of challenging Kovalev. For me I would take Kovalev over O'Neil easily. I mean the guy is plain out dangerous and that was evident vs Boston in the playoffs.....heck he made up for what happened in game 4 with Boston to help the habs rally back from a 3-1 deficit to the Bruins. You are entitled to your opinion for sure but I dont think its a good idea to criticize Kovalev in the playoffs cause he is much more effective than O'Neil during that time of year. At least it is proven.

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08-21-2005, 01:21 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsThanatos
Ah, but you forget. After this event, there was much criticism from the fans and media (and probably also the locker room).

The thing is, and the reason why the majority of Habs fans wanted Kovalev back, is the way he responded. While he did put us in a position of elimination, we wouldn't have won that series without his exceptional play in the ensuing games. We need people who respond to that type of pressure.

The guy is a sick talent. There is only a comparison here because of the salary difference.
Good point. It should be noted that Kovy is signed to a 4 year contract at 4.5 million per season while O'Neil signed for 1.5 for 1 year. I guess O'Neil wanting to play for Toronto mainly made it easy for Ferguson to sign him for a relatively low price. All is all, Kovy is the better player and based on the maket his contract is justified.

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08-21-2005, 01:22 AM
  #72
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[QUOTE=KOMO_ROCKS]Good point. It should be noted that Kovy is signed to a 4 year contract at 4.5 million per season while O'Neil signed for 1.5 for 1 year. I guess O'Neil wanting to play for Toronto mainly made it easy for Ferguson to sign him for a relatively low price. All is all, Kovy is the better player and based on the maket of UFA's his contract is justified.

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08-21-2005, 10:04 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
When the Canes went to the Stanley Cup finals a few years ago O'Neill was the reason now has Kovalev ever done this?
Are you seriously asking this? Yes, he's done that. Only difference is, Kovalev's club won; thanks in no small part to his excellent play that spring, and now he wears a Stanley Cup ring.

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08-21-2005, 11:32 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by KOMO_ROCKS
Good point. It should be noted that Kovy is signed to a 4 year contract at 4.5 million per season while O'Neil signed for 1.5 for 1 year. I guess O'Neil wanting to play for Toronto mainly made it easy for Ferguson to sign him for a relatively low price. All is all, Kovy is the better player and based on the maket his contract is justified.
Kovy's contract actually looks like pre-strike numbers. 45 pts a year does not justify 4.5 million. I like him more at Alexander Mogilny money. 45 pts still isn't worth 3.5 but I think everyone expects him to improve. I like Karuya's skills more but Kovalev has not had the injury problems that he has had. I think any forward making 4 million plus better be getting at least 70 pts a season. We will know by the 40 game mark if he is going to deliver that. As far as the playoffs go there are a bunch of other guys that have a lot more to prove.

Doug Mackenzie

kovy

11 playoffs games --- 10 points

i never seen mario on the ice with kovy at all

He played a ton with Mario in his 95 pt season. All the good Pen forwards did, especially on the power play . BUT that was in 2000-2001. In 01-02 he had 76pts in 67 games and Mario only played 24 games that year. Centers were Jan Hrdina and Robert Lang(the 50 pt version) I stand corrected. That was 4 years ago to be sure but he was potentially a 90 pt winger playing with less skilled centers. Not Guy Lafleur for sure but better than Kariya, Shanahan, Mogilny, and Selanne in that same time period. In fact over 82 games he would have finished 2nd in league scoring within a couple of points of Iginla. No I do not think he is as good as Iggy, and I am not sure if he can still play at that level but I think he can get 80pts and more than that if he doesn't have to carry a 50pt center.

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08-21-2005, 11:34 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan313
O'Neill played for Carolina he'd really never get the chance to help a team as bad as that, while Kovalev was on some talented and some bad Pittsburgh teams.

When the Canes went to the Stanley Cup finals a few years ago O'Neill was the reason now has Kovalev ever done this?
I cant believe I missed this, this is one of the stupidest thing you could've posted. Kovalev did a heck of a lot more in helping the Rangers win the cup then O'neil ever did in making them lose it.

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