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How do we get better moving forward? No pun intended

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Old
01-29-2014, 08:54 PM
  #1
glenngineer
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How do we get better moving forward? No pun intended

There's lots of talk of who should stay or go and is coming down the pike in our system. Who do we build around? Who do we trade for picks/prospects? Who's in our future plans?

Let's just look at the guys from last night and who were scratched for that matter

Centers: Legwand, Fisher, Wilson, Gaustad, Cullen

Wings: Smith, Spaling, Hornqvist, Beck, Bourque, Nystrom, Clune and Sissons since he was with Gaustad, Stalberg

Who of this group of 14 do we see on this team in 2-3 years realistically?

Wilson, Smith, Hornqvist, Beck I would say for starters.

Spaling and Bourque as well.

Sissons depending on if he sticks. Legwand, Fisher, Cullen and Gaustad will all be gone. Nystrom, Clune and Stalberg are probably out the door as well.

That's 6 forwards, possibly 7 to move forward with.

Now looking at our system, who is coming along that may make it?

Centers: Watson, not really sure of any other center prospects other than him and Sissons.

Wingers: Forsberg, Aberg, Budish, Cehlin, Leipsic, Salomaki, Stepan and Vesey.

So that's another 9 forwards to go along with the other 7 from earlier.

Centers: Wilson, Watson, Sissons and Spaling

Wingers: Smith, Beck, Hornqvist, Forsberg, Aberg, Budish, Cehlin, Leipsic, Salomaki, Stepan and Vesey

Is that going to get it done at the end of the day? While I see some really good potential in some of these guys, Forsberg is really the only high end talent of this group. Wilson is showing that glimmer playing at center the last few nights. While I like the idea of these guys panning out, half of them may turn in to NHL players and only a few may turn in to bonafide top 6 guys. Best case scenario we have a little bit of a blend of big guys with skill and smaller speedy guys with skill and some grinders with skill.

Beck and Budish could be heavy to play against with their size but both need to start stepping it up some but power forward types take longer to develop. Cehlin reminds me of a poor mans Erat. Salomaki is that 3rd line guy that will chip in 40ish points and agitate. Leipsic is a poor mans Sully, tons of heart and has a high hockey IQ. We know what we're getting with Horny and Smith. Forsberg and Aberg could be the snipers but it's anyone's guess at this point. Vesey seems to be heading down a good path but who knows. Watson is a 2nd/3rd line center. Sissons is a mystery at this point.

We have to get more high end talent in the draft. While it's nice to play it safe, you have to shoot for the moon on the hopes that you get that top end talent. Having solid players is great but you have to have the elite talent to go with it. It usually happens at the top of the draft board but plenty of guys have been had in the mid to late first round as well as out of the first round. We have to get better at this and developing these kids.

I really hope we stick with Wilson at center as he's shown fire there the last two games and he looks comfortable out there. We will see.

I have no idea what I'd do if I were the GM of this team to be honest. We're an enigma and I don't know if it's the GM/Coach/player combo, one or two of them or all three that don't seem to mesh just quite right. Glad to see Poile wanting to make some moves but we have a lot of guys that won't be here in a few years. Do we blow it up some by adding picks and prospects and move it along a little faster? I think we have to to be perfectly honest because what we have now isn't working that great.

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01-29-2014, 09:29 PM
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BigFatCat999
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Funny thing is the Preds have the vet centers that every playoff team wants. If NMC/NTC are waived could NSH collect a major hawl if they trade 2 of Legwand/Cullen/Fisher?

NHL ready center Prospects, RFA, 1st, would be my hope.

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01-29-2014, 09:34 PM
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Interesting question and an interesting breakdown. Also think your last paragraph rings pretty true, and I don't see an easy way of drastically improving things. The obvious moves are to trade D for offensive help, but I think there are some legitimate questions as to just how much of a net improvement we make in any scenario trading Weber, Josi, or Jones. I'm more cautious in my approach, so I would prefer trying to move some pieces now (i.e. Legwand, Cullen, etc...), see what we can get in the draft/free agency, and then see how some of the younger players have developed, and re-assess from there. There may be too many unknowns in the system, outside of our D, to really have a set 3-5 year plan going forward.

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01-29-2014, 11:44 PM
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token grinder
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I think next year realistically, many of these guys will be back.

If we decide to finally move Wilson to center in anticipation of moving one of the vet centers, I think a good chunk of our forwards will be the same.

Top six centers will probably be Wilson (15) and Fisher (15)
Bottom six centers Gaustad(8) and I hope Legwand (15), but could be Cullen. I don't think they both get dealt. We need insurance on Fisher retireing after next year so keeping Legwand as insurance seems like it should happen.

Top six wings-Smith (25), Forsberg(15), Hornquist (25) and ??? (20)Could be Stalberg. Could be a trade target. Could be a FA

Bottom line is we need 120 or so goals out of the top six. It can be Forsberg scores a few more and 27 a few less. I think those are reasonable expectations for the top six on this team.

So with our centers potting 22 it leaves 48 for the other 4 forwards.
Can Spaling score 15 next year? I think it is reasonable. He is doing it now, so I think he stays. I think Nystrom is good for another 10-12. Same for Bourque Leaves a couple on the board for Clune/Watson/Sissons/Beck

I think our D can net 55
If the goal is 246 (3 goals a game) we need 71 out of the bottom six.

That is just next year. The year after that, we should be in prime contention. All these young guys we have banged our head against the wall watching them struggle, do stupid things and grow should be entering their primes, playing well for the next contract.

Of course, way to torpedo it all again is pekka going down or weber going down. This looks like the beginning of a very deep team. We just have to hope Smith, Wilson, Forsberg and this years high pick (maybe) are true top 6 and hopefully top 3 talents.

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01-29-2014, 11:55 PM
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I don't see Wilson in the future. I just have a feeling he could get packaged like he was for Nash.
I think Poile has to pull a move with Legwand and get a return like he got with Erat.

I would stay away from picks and look at obtaining NHL ready prospects for Goose, Cullen, Bartley, and a picks in the 3rd to 5th round range.

I see a great D core going into next year and i would expect zero concern on that front from Poile. Wild card will be what he does with Legwand, Wilson, Goose,Cullen, and maybe Fisher.

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01-30-2014, 12:21 AM
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My pipe dream is getting one of Colorado's center's (Not named Stasny)

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01-30-2014, 01:11 AM
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I really don't think moving Wilson is the right move. I know he has value but what are we going to get by trading him? The only way we would do it would be to package him for an established top line player but other than that I vote he stays. The management should really consider moving Ellis as soon as possible to get the most value for him. I wouldn't mind seeing Bourque gone soon as well. Really, the only forwards I see the team keeping after the next 2-3 seasons are Hornqvist, Smith, Forsberg, Beck and hopefully Wilson. Scissons and Watson should be regulars by then, wouldn't be surprised to see Salomaki there as well. Budish will hopefully be a good bottom 6 forward.

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01-30-2014, 03:33 AM
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This is why I am a big fan of moving Weber but only for the right package.
Such as the one I proposed on the NSH-EDM trade proposal on the trade board.


Weber
Stalberg


Hall
2014 1st
Marincin

I also believe it might be easier to get a Vet RHD to sign here than it seems to be to get those elite forwards here.
Such as Niskanen or Girardi.

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01-30-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by predshabs View Post
This is why I am a big fan of moving Weber but only for the right package.
Such as the one I proposed on the NSH-EDM trade proposal on the trade board.


Weber
Stalberg


Hall
2014 1st
Marincin

I also believe it might be easier to get a Vet RHD to sign here than it seems to be to get those elite forwards here.
Such as Niskanen or Girardi.
dude come on. if we're gonna trade weber to edmonton, we're gonna ask for hall/rnh+perron+marincin/gernat+1st. nothing less.

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01-30-2014, 07:09 AM
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glenngineer
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Honestly I wouldn't move Weber to Edmonton unless we get Hall and Eberle back and even then I'm not sold on those two. I'd prefer Duchesne or even MacKinnon before those two.

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01-30-2014, 08:59 AM
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I like Wilson but i just don't see them being happy with his production with what they should expect from him.

He has 23 points this year with a lot of those points being collected in a couple of hot games.
I am not sure whu everyone wants to keep him but are ready to ship off Cullen who has 22 points which is one less than Wilson. Personally i expected more out of Wilson but i am not seeing it.

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01-30-2014, 09:35 AM
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Trading for a Hall and/or Eberle is great in theory, until Trotz throws them into the bottom 6 in favor of Nystrom and then they become 40 point-a-year scorers

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01-30-2014, 10:06 AM
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I don't get the mindset that we should keep legwand but trade cullen. If you switched their histories (cullen being the preds 1st pick in franchise history) and legwand being the free agent signing, I think people would say trade legwand keep cullen. We can't continue to have this emotional connection to legwand when moving him is the best move for our franchise at this time. The kind of return that we could get far exceeds what value he brings to our team right now. On top of that, cullen has shown some pretty dynamic chemistry with Smith throughout the season. I would keep those guys together. Yes I know the legwand spaling smith line is playing well right now, but are we really going to be taken seriously if those guys are our top line?

He could even come back this summer, but trading him makes a lot of sense, especially if we can't agree on a contract with him.

Stalberg either needs to be getting the linemates he needs to be successful, or he needs to be the first one shipped out this trade deadline.

I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think you move ellis whose value has never been higher for a forward prospect of equal value. Now that we have MDZ, I just feel like there is no place for ellis on the power play and he doesn't play PK.

The core moving forward should look like something like this. Granted, I think we need to lose trotz before anything else.

Smith Wilson Hornqvist
FF Fisher Stalberg/FA
Bourque Cullen Beck/Stalberg
Nystrom Goose Clune

Josi/Weber
MDZ/Jones
Ekholm/BartleyorFA

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01-30-2014, 10:33 AM
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Our problem is that even Rocket Richard couldn't turn Clune/Gaustad into a scoring line.

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01-30-2014, 10:34 AM
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Enoch
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I think you go after the offensive talent you don't have in free agency or trade. There will be a few guys again this year with a skill set we do not have. Gaborik, Vanek, Stastny, to name a few. Throw a ton of money at these guys. Who cares if we overpay honestly...

I would move Cullen and possibly stalberg if the return is there. Move on from them. Look for way to acquire a guy like eberle, Evander Kane, etc.

Be creative. No more excuses. Use rinne and weber to recruit. Get this crap done.

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01-30-2014, 10:40 AM
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I think the back end is set.

Josi-Weber
Del Zotto-Jones
Eckholm/Bartley-Ellis
Bartley/Eckholm

Rinne
Hutton/Mazanec/Dubnyk

So if we just concentrate on the forwards, we only have two pending free agents if I remember correctly, Legwand and Spaling. Moving Wilson to center recently makes me think they're trying him out as a potential Legwand replacement. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume Legwand is traded by the deadline and Spaling is re-signed. Further, let's assume that Forsberg spends the rest of this season marinating in the minors and is deemed ready for next season. So I think the forward lineup looks something like this next year (I'm not paying much attention to which side wingers play on, so I could be way off with all this):

Smith-Fisher-Hornqvist
Forsberg-Wilson-Stalberg
Spaling-Cullen-Bourque
Clune-Gaustad-Nystrom

That leaves one or two places for additional forwards to be added to the team. I believe Beck is next in line from the minors, no? So maybe something like this:

Smith-Fisher-Hornqvist
Forsberg-Wilson-Beck
Bourque-Cullen-Stalberg
Spaling-Gaustad-Nystrom
Clune

There's some potential there, but it still leaves an open spot. A top-end winger or center would really make the team more dangerous. Still, that's some decent scoring depth IF Forsberg and Beck are both ready. That second line has the potential to be dangerous. But I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a high-end center prospect coming along behind them, or a top-3 free agent pickup.

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01-30-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I think you go after the offensive talent you don't have in free agency or trade. There will be a few guys again this year with a skill set we do not have. Gaborik, Vanek, Stastny, to name a few. Throw a ton of money at these guys. Who cares if we overpay honestly...

I would move Cullen and possibly stalberg if the return is there. Move on from them. Look for way to acquire a guy like eberle, Evander Kane, etc.

Be creative. No more excuses. Use rinne and weber to recruit. Get this crap done.
those guys won't even make it to free agency... I wish they would but nope.

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01-30-2014, 10:59 AM
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As if players aren't hesitant enough to sign with us through free agency as it is, I'm wondering if we (mainly Trotz) are starting to get a reputation around the league as a team that hampers offensive talent and doesn't embrace that style. Then, naturally, established offensive guys quickly cross us off their list and therefore no one signs here.

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01-30-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I think you go after the offensive talent you don't have in free agency or trade. There will be a few guys again this year with a skill set we do not have. Gaborik, Vanek, Stastny, to name a few. Throw a ton of money at these guys. Who cares if we overpay honestly...

I would move Cullen and possibly stalberg if the return is there. Move on from them. Look for way to acquire a guy like eberle, Evander Kane, etc.

Be creative. No more excuses. Use rinne and weber to recruit. Get this crap done.
THIS! No more excuses! Yeah, who cares if we overpay, we didn't care when we overpaid for Hendricks and Gaustad, just to name a couple. If you are gonna spend it, spend it on some real good players! (ala Weber & Rinne)

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01-30-2014, 11:09 AM
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Why are we keeping Goose around? He obviously wins faveoffs but that really doesn't matter since we then dump the puck and turn it back over 80% of the time. Watson should be in Nashville next year or traded. Sign Spaling who has improved and earned 4th line C and PK minutes.

Watson/Spaling compete for 3rd/4th line C.

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01-30-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Smashville615 View Post
Why are we keeping Goose around? He obviously wins faveoffs but that really doesn't matter since we then dump the puck and turn it back over 80% of the time. Watson should be in Nashville next year or traded. Sign Spaling who has improved and earned 4th line C and PK minutes.

Watson/Spaling compete for 3rd/4th line C.

Why wouldn't we keep Goose around? He's a solid fourth-line center. On the list of concerns about the forwards, he ought to be at the very bottom of the list along with Clune and Nystrom ... IF they're all playing on the fourth line.

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01-30-2014, 12:00 PM
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I'd love to move Cullen and Legwand at the deadline and get a decent return for them. I don't think we are buyers at the deadline so might as well try to gain future assets.

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01-30-2014, 01:18 PM
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I would be fine with moving any or all of these players...
Cullen, Nystrom, Stalberg, Beck, Clune, Hellberg, Mazanec, Budish, and Shalla.

The rest of the Predators I do not want to see moved or not re-signed. If you can get future picks or prospects for any of the players above I would do it. If not I would just stick to what we have and try to fix things this offseason. Rinne alone will be a huge boost next year. Sign Legwand to a 2 year extension now. Fisher might retire after next season and at that point we will need some of our young guys to step it up. Would anyone be upset to see this line-up in 2 years?

Smith/Wilson/Forsberg
UFA signing/Legwand/Hornqvist
Bourque/Spaling/Leipsic
Salomaki/Goose/Clune or Nystrom

Josi/Weber
MDZ/Jones
Bartley/Ellis

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01-30-2014, 01:31 PM
  #24
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Our problem is that even Rocket Richard couldn't turn Clune/Gaustad into a scoring line.
Well, Richard couldn't have turned Don Marshall and Jackie Leclair into a scoring line either, but didn't stop a team with the both of them from winning a Cup.

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01-30-2014, 02:38 PM
  #25
thecloser
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I think you go after the offensive talent you don't have in free agency or trade. There will be a few guys again this year with a skill set we do not have. Gaborik, Vanek, Stastny, to name a few. Throw a ton of money at these guys. Who cares if we overpay honestly...

I would move Cullen and possibly stalberg if the return is there. Move on from them. Look for way to acquire a guy like eberle, Evander Kane, etc.

Be creative. No more excuses. Use rinne and weber to recruit. Get this crap done.
this is what i've been saying. no one will agree with me. everyone wants offensive talent, me included via FA, the fact is, we have to pay big $$$. and so what, we'll have it. i doubt there will be many complaints when we actually get offensive guys here.

i could definitely see pitches to callahan (if available), moulson, gaborik and stastny.

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