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Waiver draft pick up?

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Old
10-02-2003, 11:46 AM
  #26
TonyTanti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
never tried to present it as fact... it's my reasoning on the issue... rather than making comments like you did though, personally I'd appreciate it that if you don't agree with my comments, argue your point - present your reasoning against mine.

When I said that Fleury doesn't have the connections in Vancouver, or the media here isn't comparitive to Phoenix - if you disagree, then argue it...

MVP did the same thing on the Bertuzzi and CBA issue... just because we don't agree doesn't mean it has to get nasty.
It sure read like it.

I did present my case and you said it would never happen. Why beat my head against a brick wall?

Personally, I don't care where he has connections. It sure doesn't seem like people are chomping at the bit to sign him from where I sit but I'm hardly privy to all the info.

Sure, the media is harsh here but Burke, has, and will protected his players before. It's not as though Fleury would be the media pointman, we have Nazzy/Bert/Linden/Jovo/Cloutier to do that.

NFITO, what I posted was hardly nasty, I was getting frustrated with you telling me all the reasons why Fleury isn't going to sign here when you really don't know anything more then me on the situation.

Again, will he come here, No, almost certainly not.

Would I welcome him with open arms if he did? You're ******* right I would. Other then the top line, we have noone who can touch this guys skill if he's sober. A huge huge IF.

Is it worth a phonecall to find out and an offer of an incentive laden deal if he says yes. I certainly believe so, you don't. Let's let it go.

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10-02-2003, 11:50 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TonyTanti
Is it worth a phonecall to find out and an offer of an incentive laden deal if he says yes. I certainly believe so, you don't. Let's let it go.
But that would be tampering.

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10-02-2003, 12:04 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But that would be tampering.
Since he's in the waiver draft, I'd say it's a safe bet Chicago isn't going to kick up a fuss

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10-02-2003, 12:05 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTanti
It sure read like it.

I did present my case and you said it would never happen. Why beat my head against a brick wall?

Personally, I don't care where he has connections. It sure doesn't seem like people are chomping at the bit to sign him from where I sit but I'm hardly privy to all the info.

Sure, the media is harsh here but Burke, has, and will protected his players before. It's not as though Fleury would be the media pointman, we have Nazzy/Bert/Linden/Jovo/Cloutier to do that.

NFITO, what I posted was hardly nasty, I was getting frustrated with you telling me all the reasons why Fleury isn't going to sign here when you really don't know anything more then me on the situation.

Again, will he come here, No, almost certainly not.

Would I welcome him with open arms if he did? You're ******* right I would. Other then the top line, we have noone who can touch this guys skill if he's sober. A huge huge IF.

Is it worth a phonecall to find out and an offer of an incentive laden deal if he says yes. I certainly believe so, you don't. Let's let it go.
I think the misunderstanding here is "how" you read my post...

I admit that I don't come across well to a lot of fans... you'll get used to me in time though.... I've butted heads with many new posters in the past... that's just me though...

but I don't think we need to let the discussion go... you believe he's worth it, I don't... why not argue it?

I want to know why you think that this is a low risk move? Do you not think that Fleury in Vancouver - forget the salary at this point - could be potentially damaging for the chemistry of this team?

do you not think that this has a high probability of happening?

and this has nothing to do with skill... no doubt the guy's got a lot of skill, he may be the most skilled guy here, if he was here - including the top line!

but skill isn't a factor if there are other things that work against it IMO...

the most skilled teams rarely ever are the best teams in the league... it takes a team to win, and unfortunately with Fleury since he left Calgary a few years ago, he's had a hugely negative effect on teams.... do you not agree with this?

we do agree that Burke will never make this move... but I don't think that this is a move that Burke should even look at doing...

in the end where we see differently is that IMO this is a HUGE risk for the team.... you've said that it's a low risk/high reward situation... I've presented my points as to why it's a big risk.... why do you say it's low risk?

also with the media comment... we could have a team of 20 stars here, but there will still be media pressure on the other 3 players on the roster... that's just Vancouver and hockey coverage in a Canadian market.

The difference is that in Vancouver, there are a lot of hockey fans... there isn't a public place where Fleury could go where most people wouldn't recognize him... that's the price you pay for playing in a hockey market... in a place like Phoenix, this isn't the case... there would be many places where he wouldn't be recognized, or swarmed by fans... there are usually a few articles in the papers about the team during the season.. in Vancouver there are many, every day... we hear more about guys like Mojzis and Nolan here than you'd get in Phoenix about their 3rd or 4th line guys... this is why IMO there is much more pressure from the media which players have to deal with - and a guy like Fleury wouldn't be in the shadows, he'd be a central focus... imagine one bad streak by the team - where would the fingers point to first?

Also don't forget that last offseason there were 2 teams which Fleury expressed interest in joining... he mentioned that he wasn't crazy about going to Calgary because he felt there would be more pressure there, but said that he had a solid relationship with Gretzky so Phoenix was a choice, but ultimately choice Chicago because of his relationship with Sutter - and he did say last season that this was an important consideration because he was just coming out of rehab during the previous season in New York, and wanted to be in a situation where he felt he had support.... this season this becomes even more magnified, wouldn't you think?



ps. as for the "nasty" comment... it was where I was seeing this debate going... thankfully we can avoid that.

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10-02-2003, 12:35 PM
  #30
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And I think it was in how you "typed" it. Maybe if this happens with lots of new guys it's you and not them?

Why not argue it?

Because we've both stated our postions, you keep asking me to restate mine which is frankly a waste of my time, but one more go around.

Do I think he could potentially damage the chemistry?

If you let him yes. Hire a babysitter, let him know up front he gets 1 chance and 1 chance only. If he ****s up, cut him. Chicago never severed ties with him after the stripclub incident and that was a mistake. Also, why didn't anyone on the club tell him he wasn't coming along? What kind of teammates take Theo out to a bar? I honestly don't think that would happen here. If he went to the Roxy, I think he'd be alone, if that's the case, good bye. BB can drive you to the airport.

Do I think it has a high probability of happening?

I have no idea what shape Theo is in and neither does anyone here, there is no point in commenting. Who am I to say if he's kicked the bottle or not?

Most skilled teams rarely win?

True, if you had last years Rangers in EA hockey, you'd trounce the league.

He's had a hugely negative effect on teams, do I agree?

Last year in Chicago yes, but only the once. If he doesn't go to that strip club, who's to say what happens. If he's clean (and I'm not interested any other way) I don't think he would be. In New York he was too but I think that was mostly because his problem finally came out, he's been a partier for years but it never came out in Calgary and he was an important part of that team. The NY spotlight didn't agree with him.

I say it's a low risk for the same reasons I've posted numerous times. Short money, short leash, he doesn't toe the line and he's gone. Where is the risk in that?

BS on the media comment, how much pressure does Langdon/Keane/Slegr/Allen/Hedberg get as the 21st to 23rd players on the roster?

Most of the players can walk through Vancouver unmolested because we have mature smart hockey fans in this city. I've read numerous times how much Nazzy loves it here as he can go to the park with his kids and he doesn't get hounded by people. I was in the Starbucks on Marine in North Van last year and Bert walked in, everyone looked, then went back to their lattes. It's been mentioned many times how respectful our fans our to players privacy.

Yeah, we hear more about Nolan and Mojzis because it's training camp and the mediots are looking to write about something, let's see how often it happens in season ok?

It really isn't up to Theo anymore where he plays. Well, it is I suppose in that he can refuse to go somewhere he doesn't want to. Let's not pretend people are knocking down his door to sign him up though.

I guess the need for support becomes more magnified but again, I won't speak for Theo.

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Old
10-02-2003, 01:00 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTanti
And I think it was in how you "typed" it. Maybe if this happens with lots of new guys it's you and not them?
I agree it's me... never argued that... but that's who I am, and I have no reason or desire to change.

Quote:
Why not argue it?

Because we've both stated our postions, you keep asking me to restate mine which is frankly a waste of my time, but one more go around.

Do I think he could potentially damage the chemistry?

If you let him yes. Hire a babysitter, let him know up front he gets 1 chance and 1 chance only. If he ****s up, cut him. Chicago never severed ties with him after the stripclub incident and that was a mistake. Also, why didn't anyone on the club tell him he wasn't coming along? What kind of teammates take Theo out to a bar? I honestly don't think that would happen here. If he went to the Roxy, I think he'd be alone, if that's the case, good bye. BB can drive you to the airport.
because you give a guy just 1 chance and hire him a babysitter (which Chicago did), doesn't mean he won't affect chemistry.

all it takes is adding a guy to the room that the players in the room don't want there, and the chemistry is affected... it's a very fragile thing, and we could lose it as quickly as we got it... I don't see the point in taking the risk.

and severing ties with a player isn't as easy as BB driving him to the airport... it affects the lineups, the way the coaches have planned their team, and it affects the payroll and budget off the ice... buying him out for a $1mill (assuming he renegotiated his contract) isn't chump change... remember how hard and difficult it was for the Canucks just to secure this lottery money - and how much time they spent on it - for a possible $2mill a season.

Quote:
Do I think it has a high probability of happening?

I have no idea what shape Theo is in and neither does anyone here, there is no point in commenting. Who am I to say if he's kicked the bottle or not?

Most skilled teams rarely win?

True, if you had last years Rangers in EA hockey, you'd trounce the league.
you're right no one knows what kind of shape he's in... therefore the term I've used - which I think is justified - is *risk*.... calling him up and talking to him on the phone doesn't tell us what kind of shape he's in either... the only thing that tells us that is seeing him actually play, and how his teammates accept him.

the other comment I don't understand?? what does EA hockey have to do with anything being discussed here??

my comment wasn't that most skilled teams rarely win - it was that the most skilled teams in the league rarely are the best teams in the league.... skill is just one part of a lot of other things which determine success, and Fleury has that one part, but is missing most others... his character is in question, his desire, commitment to the team goals - basically his heart - and that IMO is more important than skill, if I had to choose one or the other.

Quote:
BS on the media comment, how much pressure does Langdon/Keane/Slegr/Allen/Hedberg get as the 21st to 23rd players on the roster?

Most of the players can walk through Vancouver unmolested because we have mature smart hockey fans in this city. I've read numerous times how much Nazzy loves it here as he can go to the park with his kids and he doesn't get hounded by people. I was in the Starbucks on Marine in North Van last year and Bert walked in, everyone looked, then went back to their lattes. It's been mentioned many times how respectful our fans our to players privacy.

Yeah, we hear more about Nolan and Mojzis because it's training camp and the mediots are looking to write about something, let's see how often it happens in season ok?

It really isn't up to Theo anymore where he plays. Well, it is I suppose in that he can refuse to go somewhere he doesn't want to. Let's not pretend people are knocking down his door to sign him up though.

I guess the need for support becomes more magnified but again, I won't speak for Theo
most of those players you mentioned haven't had a negative effect on this team, nor have had problems that the media can focus on...

if say the Canucks sign Fleury, and they have a bad October, how much of the blame do you think Fleury would shoulder? no matter how's he's playing, he's still the new guy on a team that has gelled in the past... that's pressure IMO.

there's no point in arguing about the media focus in Vancouver compared to Phoenix... it's not even close IMO... and I'm just using Phoenix as an example, but it's not close to any American city really (with the possible exception of Detroit)... even in New York hockey gets low coverage (comparitively to other sports), but because of their sheer mass there is still lots to print... but pick up the NY Times and see how much hockey news is in there, and compare it to the Sun or Province... the most hockey coverage in a NY paper is in the Post - and they usually get page 6 or 7 after the NFL, NBA and various other things (during hockey season when baseball isn't around)... even offseason baseball news is higher priority.

that's just the way that the media is in the States compared to Canada... when it comes to focus on hockey, it's not even close.

anyways... we've both made our points, and we won't agree... IMO it'd be a terrible move to acquire Fleury - and why I don't think that Burke would even consider it.... we're a team that's just too reliant on the effectiveness of our chemistry to be making such a move... a few years ago it would have been different, but not anymore.

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10-02-2003, 01:00 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I think the misunderstanding here is "how" you read my post...

I admit that I don't come across well to a lot of fans... you'll get used to me in time though.... I've butted heads with many new posters in the past... that's just me though...

but I don't think we need to let the discussion go... you believe he's worth it, I don't... why not argue it?

I want to know why you think that this is a low risk move? Do you not think that Fleury in Vancouver - forget the salary at this point - could be potentially damaging for the chemistry of this team?

do you not think that this has a high probability of happening?

and this has nothing to do with skill... no doubt the guy's got a lot of skill, he may be the most skilled guy here, if he was here - including the top line!

but skill isn't a factor if there are other things that work against it IMO...

the most skilled teams rarely ever are the best teams in the league... it takes a team to win, and unfortunately with Fleury since he left Calgary a few years ago, he's had a hugely negative effect on teams.... do you not agree with this?

we do agree that Burke will never make this move... but I don't think that this is a move that Burke should even look at doing...

in the end where we see differently is that IMO this is a HUGE risk for the team.... you've said that it's a low risk/high reward situation... I've presented my points as to why it's a big risk.... why do you say it's low risk?

also with the media comment... we could have a team of 20 stars here, but there will still be media pressure on the other 3 players on the roster... that's just Vancouver and hockey coverage in a Canadian market.

The difference is that in Vancouver, there are a lot of hockey fans... there isn't a public place where Fleury could go where most people wouldn't recognize him... that's the price you pay for playing in a hockey market... in a place like Phoenix, this isn't the case... there would be many places where he wouldn't be recognized, or swarmed by fans... there are usually a few articles in the papers about the team during the season.. in Vancouver there are many, every day... we hear more about guys like Mojzis and Nolan here than you'd get in Phoenix about their 3rd or 4th line guys... this is why IMO there is much more pressure from the media which players have to deal with - and a guy like Fleury wouldn't be in the shadows, he'd be a central focus... imagine one bad streak by the team - where would the fingers point to first?

Also don't forget that last offseason there were 2 teams which Fleury expressed interest in joining... he mentioned that he wasn't crazy about going to Calgary because he felt there would be more pressure there, but said that he had a solid relationship with Gretzky so Phoenix was a choice, but ultimately choice Chicago because of his relationship with Sutter - and he did say last season that this was an important consideration because he was just coming out of rehab during the previous season in New York, and wanted to be in a situation where he felt he had support.... this season this becomes even more magnified, wouldn't you think?



ps. as for the "nasty" comment... it was where I was seeing this debate going... thankfully we can avoid that.
I would agree with you that the media attention would be greater in a Canadian city than in most US counterparts (NY,Chi, Bos, Philly excluded). Why do you think however, that the media would play against him. I believe that if Theo Fleury decided to dedicate himself to playing hockey and rehabilitating himself, then he would be a media darling. It all comes down to whether this is the time when Theo decides to stick to rehab. If he can make it, he would be the toast of the town. I am willing to bet that if Theo decided to give Van a try, that the city would be on his side (not try and eat him up). As for temptation to get off of the wagon, he would find that in any hockey town to an equal degree.


I also believe that the fans would go nuts for his courageous play. Remember back to the Olympics, when a dedicated Theo was one of the best players on the Canadian squad. This guy turned it up in all the big games, against the best players in the world. I truly believe, that if we would have had a healthy Theo on our squad for the playoffs last season, that it would have made a huge difference. This is the kind of player that does not allow a team to lose a big game without giving it everything he has (again when healthy).

As for the salary situation not sitting well with the players, I think that you are off base with your thoughts. I think that every player on the team would be thrilled to have a healthy Theo on the team for 4.5 million. His performance would be head and shoulders above Brendan Morrison (on this team he would rack up 80-100 points again if healthy), and his salary would fit in exactlly where his skill level and importance to the team would rank him.

Another statement that I disagree with you is the one that winning a cup is not important to Theo. This is a player that has strived to win the big games at every level he has played in. He has shown up to play for his country internationally, and has been a big part of a Stanley cup victory in the past. I think that this is the reason that he could possibly want to come to Vancouver, if Burke were to pick him in the waiver draft.

If Theo Fleury is dedicating himself to rehabilitation, then he will get picked up in the waiver draft. You can bet that every GM in the league will be checking closely on his progress. I think that he would be the perfect fit to this team if his troubles are behind him. I think that he would be a great team leader. I hope that Vancouver picks him in the waiver draft, and gives him perhaps his last chance.

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10-02-2003, 01:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by membleypeg
I would agree with you that the media attention would be greater in a Canadian city than in most US counterparts (NY,Chi, Bos, Philly excluded). Why do you think however, that the media would play against him. I believe that if Theo Fleury decided to dedicate himself to playing hockey and rehabilitating himself, then he would be a media darling. It all comes down to whether this is the time when Theo decides to stick to rehab. If he can make it, he would be the toast of the town. I am willing to bet that if Theo decided to give Van a try, that the city would be on his side (not try and eat him up). As for temptation to get off of the wagon, he would find that in any hockey town to an equal degree.


I also believe that the fans would go nuts for his courageous play. Remember back to the Olympics, when a dedicated Theo was one of the best players on the Canadian squad. This guy turned it up in all the big games, against the best players in the world. I truly believe, that if we would have had a healthy Theo on our squad for the playoffs last season, that it would have made a huge difference. This is the kind of player that does not allow a team to lose a big game without giving it everything he has (again when healthy).

As for the salary situation not sitting well with the players, I think that you are off base with your thoughts. I think that every player on the team would be thrilled to have a healthy Theo on the team for 4.5 million. His performance would be head and shoulders above Brendan Morrison (on this team he would rack up 80-100 points again if healthy), and his salary would fit in exactlly where his skill level and importance to the team would rank him.

Another statement that I disagree with you is the one that winning a cup is not important to Theo. This is a player that has strived to win the big games at every level he has played in. He has shown up to play for his country internationally, and has been a big part of a Stanley cup victory in the past. I think that this is the reason that he could possibly want to come to Vancouver, if Burke were to pick him in the waiver draft.

If Theo Fleury is dedicating himself to rehabilitation, then he will get picked up in the waiver draft. You can bet that every GM in the league will be checking closely on his progress. I think that he would be the perfect fit to this team if his troubles are behind him. I think that he would be a great team leader. I hope that Vancouver picks him in the waiver draft, and gives him perhaps his last chance.
A frigging men to that.

My comment about EA sports was that the Rangers in a video game would kick ass but when you add in the "chemistry" and personalities of a locker room, the result is less then the sum of the parts.

To chemistry, my honest belief is that if a team is winning, generally the chemistry is good, if it's losing the chemistry is bad. It's more an effect then a cause imo.

Without skill chemistry isn't worth anything.

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10-02-2003, 01:29 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by membleypeg
I would agree with you that the media attention would be greater in a Canadian city than in most US counterparts (NY,Chi, Bos, Philly excluded). Why do you think however, that the media would play against him. I believe that if Theo Fleury decided to dedicate himself to playing hockey and rehabilitating himself, then he would be a media darling. It all comes down to whether this is the time when Theo decides to stick to rehab. If he can make it, he would be the toast of the town. I am willing to bet that if Theo decided to give Van a try, that the city would be on his side (not try and eat him up). As for temptation to get off of the wagon, he would find that in any hockey town to an equal degree.


I also believe that the fans would go nuts for his courageous play. Remember back to the Olympics, when a dedicated Theo was one of the best players on the Canadian squad. This guy turned it up in all the big games, against the best players in the world. I truly believe, that if we would have had a healthy Theo on our squad for the playoffs last season, that it would have made a huge difference. This is the kind of player that does not allow a team to lose a big game without giving it everything he has (again when healthy)... etc.
I agree 100%... And I do NOT think that he would pose a chemistry problem in the dressing room... The guy is a recovering alcoholic, not a pedophile trying to **** the younger players (now that would pose a dressing room problem).

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10-02-2003, 01:35 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by membleypeg
I would agree with you that the media attention would be greater in a Canadian city than in most US counterparts (NY,Chi, Bos, Philly excluded). Why do you think however, that the media would play against him. I believe that if Theo Fleury decided to dedicate himself to playing hockey and rehabilitating himself, then he would be a media darling. It all comes down to whether this is the time when Theo decides to stick to rehab. If he can make it, he would be the toast of the town. I am willing to bet that if Theo decided to give Van a try, that the city would be on his side (not try and eat him up). As for temptation to get off of the wagon, he would find that in any hockey town to an equal degree.

.
I think that the media would play against him because the media adds pressure on people (not just players, but people in general)... this is their job! it's the pressure that would hurt Theo...

true if he dedicated himself and turned it around, and helped the team win games and become a better overall team, then he could have the support of the media... but all it would take is one bad stretch and that disappears... I don't think that Fleury is strong enough yet to handle that kind of pressure... he's given us no reason to think otherwise the last couple years...

the temptation to get off the wagon is not IMO equal in any city... stress, pressure, among other factors trigger temptation... drinking for him is a way to handle stress - he's said as much - and Vancouver is in the top 10 of cities in the NHL where hockey has a spotlight on it throughout the season... this is why I think it would be more difficult for him here.

Quote:
I also believe that the fans would go nuts for his courageous play. Remember back to the Olympics, when a dedicated Theo was one of the best players on the Canadian squad. This guy turned it up in all the big games, against the best players in the world. I truly believe, that if we would have had a healthy Theo on our squad for the playoffs last season, that it would have made a huge difference. This is the kind of player that does not allow a team to lose a big game without giving it everything he has (again when healthy).
again we go back to "if we had a healthy" Fleury... this isn't the topic as I see it... the question is do we pick up this guy off waivers... he has given us absolutely no reason to believe that he is healthy... he's had problems now for 2 straight seasons, and his current team, backed by a very supportive coach, who's been in Fleury's corner for a while now, have put him on waivers...

I agree with you that if we know that Fleury has a clean bill of health, then this is a different situation - but then again, would you expect him on waivers, and also then expect him to fall to us, if he did have a clean bill of health?

Quote:
As for the salary situation not sitting well with the players, I think that you are off base with your thoughts. I think that every player on the team would be thrilled to have a healthy Theo on the team for 4.5 million. His performance would be head and shoulders above Brendan Morrison (on this team he would rack up 80-100 points again if healthy), and his salary would fit in exactlly where his skill level and importance to the team would rank him.
I never said that Morrison or Bertuzzi wouldn't be thrilled to have a $4.5mill player on their team... the opposite actually!

I think that they would love it... they would love having Strudwick on this team making $6mill a year!

it's Burke who wouldn't like it, because it gives guys like Morrison and Bertuzzi more leverage to work with...

if Fleury is making $4.5 mill a year, what are the chances that he has a better season than Morrison?

don't suggest that *if* he's healthy, or *if* he plays motivated... given the circumstances right now - his questionable health, and motivation (will talk about this down further), combined with Morrison playing healthy on the big line and has been improving every year (while Theo has been digressing, and isn't getting any younger)... what are the chances that Fleury would have a better season here?

If Morrison ends up even being close to Fleury in points, it gives his agent significant leverage in negotiations... of course Morrison would love it, but Burke would avoid being in such a situation.

He keeps talking about the Naslund cap... but it's not as simple as just a cap on one player... .it's a structure... just because Naslund is making $5mill doesn't mean that you structure is fine if you have 10 other players making less - at $4mill!... if Fleury is making $4.5mill in our system, then guys like Morrison have leverage to get at least that much, if not more, in their next negotations... this is why his salary is a problem.

Not to mention that Burke has already taked about a ceiling for the entire payroll, and we're already there... eclipsing that ceiling by $4.5mill is very significant.

Quote:
Another statement that I disagree with you is the one that winning a cup is not important to Theo. This is a player that has strived to win the big games at every level he has played in. He has shown up to play for his country internationally, and has been a big part of a Stanley cup victory in the past. I think that this is the reason that he could possibly want to come to Vancouver, if Burke were to pick him in the waiver draft.
It's not that Fleury wouldn't want to win another Cup... but do you really think that this is a priority for him?? do you think that he would at this stage in his career *and his life!* would put the Cup higher than being in a place which he knows he can get support??

he's won a Cup... he's won championships elsewhere as well, the Canada Cup, the Olympics, WJC, world championships, etc... right now this isn't the most important thing for him - it can't be!!

last season he wanted to go to Chicago because of Sutter... he wasn't going there because of a chance to win a Cup, but because he felt he had someone there that he could lean on, and get support from...

this season he's in an even worse situation as of now... 2 years ago in NY he went to rehab, and in the offseason, despite the concerns, it wasn't like it is now... but after what happened in Chicago, the concerns are even bigger this offseason... support I would think is an even bigger priority now, then it was last season.

there are bigger things in focus right now for Fleury than winning a Cup... he knows it, and he's commented on it... Vancouver can't provide him with any of those answers... we have a notoriously tough GM here, a tough, vocal coach, a media that has taken more than its share of shots at various people on the team, and a team that has the expectations placed heavily on their shoulders of winning the Cup... this is city has pressure, there's no escaping that.

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If Theo Fleury is dedicating himself to rehabilitation, then he will get picked up in the waiver draft. You can bet that every GM in the league will be checking closely on his progress. I think that he would be the perfect fit to this team if his troubles are behind him. I think that he would be a great team leader. I hope that Vancouver picks him in the waiver draft, and gives him perhaps his last chance
I doubt that he gets any interest in waivers this year... $4.5 mill is a significant chunk for teams to add... most teams have already hit their payroll ceilings (if not all now), and teams will be desperate to cut payroll further as the season rolls along... adding a $4.5mill question mark is probably not a thing that teams will be doing this year.

I also think that he'd be a perfect fit on this team, if we can ignore the problems he's had the last 2 years and his salary and how that affects our payroll structure and our flexibility to make moves during the season...

the fact however is that neither of these two things can be ignored... this is why I have to go back to what I had felt from the beginning - this being a high risk move.

remember also that committing $4.5mill of our payroll right now takes away the flexibility to correct any problems that the team may see come up during the season... this is why IMO Burke has left himself such options every year, rather than just load up in the offseason.

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10-02-2003, 01:36 PM
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I agree 100%... And I do NOT think that he would pose a chemistry problem in the dressing room... The guy is a recovering alcoholic, not a pedophile trying to **** the younger players (now that would pose a dressing room problem).
so you don't think that he had a negative effect on the Hawks last year?

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10-02-2003, 01:53 PM
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so you don't think that he had a negative effect on the Hawks last year?
IF he had a negative effect on the Hawks, he was a symptom of a much larger problem. To blame the Hawks chemistry problems all on Fleury is pretty short sighted. They were pretty fragile to begin with if one incident at a strip club forced them to collapse!

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10-02-2003, 02:07 PM
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IF he had a negative effect on the Hawks, he was a symptom of a much larger problem. To blame the Hawks chemistry problems all on Fleury is pretty short sighted. They were pretty fragile to begin with if one incident at a strip club forced them to collapse!
never said once that I'm blaming all the chemistry problems the Hawks had on Fleury...

my question was just as it was worded:

do you think that Fleury had a negative effect on the Hawks chemistry last year?

not putting all the blame on his shoulders - but I am saying that he did have a negative impact on the team's chemistry.

and don't you think that our situation is also a concern?? our team last year proved to be fragile when it comes to chemistry... we lost the division last year on our own - it's not the Avs that took it from us... we were beat by mediocre teams down the stretch because we played horrible... we lost the 2nd round of the playoffs after leading 3-1 ....

these events show that when the pressure's on this team folded... that to me is fragile, and IMO it wouldn't take much to disrupt the chemistry we have.

add to it that we lost 2 players that were *key* in our lockerroom as well, and we have some question marks to address, when it comes to really how strong our chemistry is this season.

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10-02-2003, 03:28 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
never said once that I'm blaming all the chemistry problems the Hawks had on Fleury...

my question was just as it was worded:

do you think that Fleury had a negative effect on the Hawks chemistry last year?

not putting all the blame on his shoulders - but I am saying that he did have a negative impact on the team's chemistry.

and don't you think that our situation is also a concern?? our team last year proved to be fragile when it comes to chemistry... we lost the division last year on our own - it's not the Avs that took it from us... we were beat by mediocre teams down the stretch because we played horrible... we lost the 2nd round of the playoffs after leading 3-1 ....

these events show that when the pressure's on this team folded... that to me is fragile, and IMO it wouldn't take much to disrupt the chemistry we have.

add to it that we lost 2 players that were *key* in our lockerroom as well, and we have some question marks to address, when it comes to really how strong our chemistry is this season.
Yes, I think Fleury had a negative effect on the Hawks chemistry last year. I also think that Fleury had a negative effect because the Hawks had severe player chemistry problems in general.

No, I don't think our situation is a concern. Our team last year proved to be fragile when it comes to MENTAL TOUGHNESS not chemistry. The situations you outline are because of MENTAL TOUGHNESS. The Canucks do not have a chemistry problem. The Canucks are one of the better teams in the league because of player chemistry. I'd say pretty much EVERY player is on the same page and follows the system. I'd say that the Canucks have a definite identity and EACH player has a definite role on the team that adds to the whole.

The Canucks choked because of mental toughness - Canucks are a young team and you only get mentally tough through dealing with adversity. Fleury is a warrior whose been through the terrain and has a history of scoring big goals in big games. Fleury is a mentally tough hockey player who would only add to the Canucks team mental toughness.

I give Fleury the benefit of the doubt. Yes, he's had problems. Yes, he's a recovering alcoholic. Yes, it's a long, bumpy road to recovery.

If he's putting in the effort to get himself better, he's worth a chance. High reward player.

He would fit perfectly in a 2nd line role. The pressure isn't on him to be the top point producer. He'd be asked to chip in secondary scoring and fit in with the Sedins. What are you so scared of? That big bad little Fleury is going to somehow convince the Sedins that they should get drunk and go to Swedish Touch?

And, Fleury will be EVEN MORE mentally tough once he beats the bottle. I assume he will, because it's my nature to assume that human beings can change and get better. What an inspiration to all the hockey players with substance abuses he will be! And the fans who are battling alcohol themselves.

Do I think that Brian Burke should look into getting Fleury? Yes.

Do I think Fleury will be coming to Vancouver? No. Because of reasons discussed in other posts above...

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10-02-2003, 03:35 PM
  #40
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I agree 100%... And I do NOT think that he would pose a chemistry problem in the dressing room... The guy is a recovering alcoholic, not a pedophile trying to **** the younger players (now that would pose a dressing room problem).
did you forget what happened with the Hawks last season? Fleury, along with Arnason and Housley were involved in an altercation with bouncers in a strip club last season. it tore the chemistry apart and after that the team tanked it.

saying Fleury is not a chemistry risk is like saying having unprotected sex with a prostitute on Hastings St is not an STD risk.

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10-02-2003, 03:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LaVal575
did you forget what happened with the Hawks last season? Fleury, along with Arnason and Housley were involved in an altercation with bouncers in a strip club last season. it tore the chemistry apart and after that the team tanked it.

saying Fleury is not a chemistry risk is like saying having unprotected sex with a prostitute on Hastings St is not an STD risk.
Read above for my point-of-view... And having unprotected sex with a Catholic school girl is more an STD risk than a prostitute on Hastings St.

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10-02-2003, 03:49 PM
  #42
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It's something when a hockey player can be dissed for too much fondness for beer. Where would the NHL be without its alcoholics?

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10-02-2003, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Yammer
It's something when a hockey player can be dissed for too much fondness for beer. Where would the NHL be without its alcoholics?
if it was just a fondness for beer there wouldn't be a problem. alcoholism is a nasty disease. unfortunately with this disease comes too many complications for the NHL.

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