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Are the Dysfunctual Days of this Organization Now Gone for Good?

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Old
03-20-2014, 03:32 PM
  #26
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The organization has shown a glimmer of competence with the way they handled the adversity early in the season and the way they handled the trade deadline.

I'm not 100% sold yet, this offseason is either going to seal it or they will revert to their bad habits, but there's some good signs there

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03-20-2014, 05:42 PM
  #27
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Flyers are one of the model franchises. Luck has played a big part in our cup drought...some seriously ungodly bad cruel luck.

As bad as clarke handled the lindros situations as well as other players he did a lot of good to help foster a culture here, a culture that still exists.

One thing i've always admired about the flyers is that you can tell this organization has a lot of pride and that shows in the way the players go through tough situations. Very few teams that I can honestly say have consistent pride. One of the people that I think has instilled that pride is Homer.

As much as homer frustrates me, he is one of the most admirable people in flyers history if not the most. Player coach Gm. He is this organization and he excelled at every level. I really believe he sets the tone for this organization for the past few years and if that is the case I can say we are in good hands.

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03-20-2014, 06:10 PM
  #28
Mickey Morandini
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When you rattle off 30 years of dysfunction its hard to think its over after only a 5 month lull.

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03-20-2014, 10:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GiggityGiggityGoo View Post
When you rattle off 30 years of dysfunction its hard to think its over after only a 5 month lull.
IDK... When you look up and down the roster, and most of the Farm... and you look up and down the coaching staff, and management... up and down the entire organization... what you find is character guys. There seems to be no troublemakers nor potential ones, no big ego players who might try to hold up the team, no party guys... there are many young, energetic high spirited TEAM players who want to have a good time, but not at the possible expense of their careers... Compare each of them to Bryz or some of the other big ego players that the Organization tried to co-exist with to better the team, in hopes of winning the Cup. It appears to me that they purposely stocked the team... both on and off the ice... with talent without bloated egos... but I could be wrong, since I have no inside information whatsoever... I'm certain though that if there are any chinks in the armor, the Philly Media will sniff it out and the fun will once again begin... it is too calm around here... a loss here and there and who knows what happens.

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03-21-2014, 12:09 AM
  #30
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Talk about jumping to a conclusion... What do you have to support adding Hexy being any factor at all... besides the timing of his hiring? If anything after he arrived the Organization was drawing cries to change the culture, and Hextall's hiring flew in the face of that, and the early season brought fear of a total regression... If anything I'd look to Homer's choice of righting the ship with Berube being the major factor. That said, I really see it happening much before then and the jettison of Bryz being the final cleansing act.

I would be interested in learning any information on what Hextall -- who I love -- has done to stabilize the Organization since he was hired.
Well for one, "glimmer of patience" is a pretty minute insinuation to begin with. I'm not sure I call a coaching change something that rights the ship of organizational dysfunction. I do agree that bringing in Berube was what turned the team around on the ice, so have you changed the question?

I bring up Hextall, who is our assistant GM, because well.... he's the assistant GM, I think that says enough. What proof do you need at that point that he factors in on the patience Homer and him have shown this season. He is sitting side by side with Homer while you point at the time period of this season yet he is not part of the increase in functionality that you see? He was brought here to assist in doing the very job of overlooking organizational function and is doing it, unless you're saying that he's not. I don't get it.


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03-21-2014, 12:41 AM
  #31
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Well for one, "glimmer of patience" is a pretty minute insinuation to begin with. I'm not sure I call a coaching change something that rights the ship of organizational dysfunction. I do agree that bringing in Berube was what turned the team around on the ice, so have you changed the question?

I bring up Hextall, who is our assistant GM, because well.... he's the assistant GM, I think that says enough. What proof do you need at that point that he factors in on the patience Homer and him have shown this season. He is sitting side by side with Homer while you point at the time period of this season yet he is not part of the increase in functionality that you see? He was brought here to assist in doing the very job of overlooking organizational function and is doing it, unless you're saying that he's not. I don't get it.
I did say that the change started before Berube... but I do think that Chief may have had a larger effect than Hexy... but I don't really know what Hextall has done exactly, and I do want to learn. I'm not knocking Hextall, I just don't know if anyone of us out of the loop can detail what his contribution has been. As I suggested, we have kinda, sorta a timing, but I would guess that other personnel changed occurred also around that time... and is Hexy the tail wagging the dog that is his superior? Hextall was brought in as the assistant GM and IIRC the GM of the Phantoms... we assume as an heir apparent, but can't assume as someone who Homer will be looking over his shoulder at and fearing. My question was... and still is... what has Hexy done in his time here as assistant GM that leads us to believe that he was a major part of the culture change? We do know that he was one of the old school type of hires that the Media screamed at Mr. Snider about... I don't doubt that he may have contributed greatly in these past so many months, but I personally have no idea if he has been that instrumental... I do know that I don't want to give Ron all the credit and ignore the terrific job Homer has done recently... one part of which was selecting as the replacement coach who I believe to be the proper person for the job. If you can inform me of what Hexy has done that leads you to believe that he was the missing link... please do so... short of that I have no clue exactly what his contribution has been... I only know what the hopes were that he brought with him, and how he gave so many people who want Homer gone a person to rally behind and support.

I need no proof... I need information, not a baseless assumption and a incidental timeline.


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03-21-2014, 12:42 AM
  #32
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Promoting Berube was the right move, but let's not forget that it followed the massive ****up of keeping Lavi for too long. He should've been let go before training camp.

So...that sign on Snider's door should read 66 Games Without Incident instead of 69. Or 0, if you want to count the botched handling of Gustafsson as a troubling omen of what's to come for guys like Ghost and Hagg...Morin likely gets a pass for being big though.

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03-21-2014, 01:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Promoting Berube was the right move, but let's not forget that it followed the massive ****up of keeping Lavi for too long. He should've been let go before training camp.

So...that sign on Snider's door should read 66 Games Without Incident instead of 69. Or 0, if you want to count the botched handling of Gustafsson as a troubling omen of what's to come for guys like Ghost and Hagg...Morin likely gets a pass for being big though.
Gus could have been a problem... an inconsequential one though IMO... but doesn't seem to be, just as Mesz could have been but wasn't. Both were given every opportunity to grab the last D spot and neither did for any length of time -- Mesz's up coming UFA status spelled his obvious departure with Mac in the Flyers sights -- Gus is at this point a good depth D-man, but the other seven are healthy and entrenched... and it is as it should be with all things considered.

Since Gus and Mesz were given their opportunities, what bad message if any does it send the future Flyers D-men already selected and signed? None that I can see... I can see them understanding that they too will have a chance, but they will have to prove an upgrade from what the Flyers have historically liked: veteran D-men... I honestly believe that The Flyers do want to develop home grown D-men, but if they can upgrade with a vet they will... What they need and want is a young D-man to prove to develop quicker than the usual NHL D-man and force their hand... Tiny Kimmo did it in Nashville and the Flyers coveted him... Gus couldn't win a steady spot here, and probably never will and will be moved, or kept as depth until replaced.

Personally I don't see this as a potential problem... maybe with other players, but not with the ones here... and hopefully the young studs in waiting will not make it a problem either... We'll see.


EDIT: That Homer wanted to give Lavy a full camp and second chance was a testament to the Flyers having faith in people who have served them well... the fact that Homer pulled the trigger when it was obvious that Lavy was not going to win back the players, even with the knowledge that firing him only three games into the season would bring chuckles and pointed fingers aimed at himself was testament that Homer cared more for the Organization and its personnel more than his saving face and pretending that he had not made a mistake... Home blew the timing, but I bet he was able to sleep well after the move... and was able to look into the mirror to shave before he made the move; he gave Lavy one last shot and one last Camp... at the unfortunate cost of one for Berube. You can't have your bread and eat it too.


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Old
03-21-2014, 01:22 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Promoting Berube was the right move, but let's not forget that it followed the massive ****up of keeping Lavi for too long. He should've been let go before training camp.

So...that sign on Snider's door should read 66 Games Without Incident instead of 69. Or 0, if you want to count the botched handling of Gustafsson as a troubling omen of what's to come for guys like Ghost and Hagg...Morin likely gets a pass for being big though.
I'm not worried about it, Gus is a solid bottom pairing defender but his upside & skill set doesn't compare with those three.

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03-21-2014, 01:22 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
IDK... When you look up and down the roster, and most of the Farm... and you look up and down the coaching staff, and management... up and down the entire organization... what you find is character guys. There seems to be no troublemakers nor potential ones, no big ego players who might try to hold up the team, no party guys... there are many young, energetic high spirited TEAM players who want to have a good time, but not at the possible expense of their careers... Compare each of them to Bryz or some of the other big ego players that the Organization tried to co-exist with to better the team, in hopes of winning the Cup. It appears to me that they purposely stocked the team... both on and off the ice... with talent without bloated egos... but I could be wrong, since I have no inside information whatsoever... I'm certain though that if there are any chinks in the armor, the Philly Media will sniff it out and the fun will once again begin... it is too calm around here... a loss here and there and who knows what happens.
It seems that way now, but things can change. Remember when Richards was the next Bobby Clarke and the locker room was close and fun and everybody liked each other, and then a season later Richards had a partying problem and the locker room was divided (supposedly)?

All I know is that they have a pretty talented young team with some holes to fill and people in the front office and management that have shown certain strengths and weaknesses in the recent past. It will take a long period of nothing crazy happening to convince me that those kinds of things are behind the organization.

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03-21-2014, 01:53 AM
  #36
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It seems that way now, but things can change. Remember when Richards was the next Bobby Clarke and the locker room was close and fun and everybody liked each other, and then a season later Richards had a partying problem and the locker room was divided (supposedly)?

All I know is that they have a pretty talented young team with some holes to fill and people in the front office and management that have shown certain strengths and weaknesses in the recent past. It will take a long period of nothing crazy happening to convince me that those kinds of things are behind the organization.
That's the thing though... it proved that Richards and Carter were not the character guys that were needed. There was fun off the ice... too much as it apparently seems... and they were moody and, right or wrong, they didn't handle the Media very well... and at least with one of them, the fans. I believe they were more cliquish than they were family. I believe that the Organization learned and made sure the people coming in were different... and the Bryz fiasco sealed the deal... I could be wrong; I hope I'm not.

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03-21-2014, 02:17 AM
  #37
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I'm not worried about it, Gus is a solid bottom pairing defender but his upside & skill set doesn't compare with those three.
Yes. But when you factor in the 4 decades of mostly abysmal failure at developing their own Dmen, it's a problem.

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03-21-2014, 02:20 AM
  #38
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That's the thing though... it proved that Richards and Carter were not the character guys that were needed. There was fun off the ice... too much as it apparently seems... and they were moody and, right or wrong, they didn't handle the Media very well... and at least with one of them, the fans. I believe they were more cliquish than they were family. I believe that the Organization learned and made sure the people coming in were different... and the Bryz fiasco sealed the deal... I could be wrong; I hope I'm not.
Richards and Carter were fine. How quickly we forget that playoff run, and then winning the Cup in LA.

The off ice crap is so blown out of proportion it isn't funny. The media did it because they were sad that they got called out on their crap journalism.

Somehow, I don't think it's a coincidence that those trades just happened to address all the issues the Flyers faced at the time; several roster holes, lack of prospects, lack of picks. The roster was filled, they got picks which became prospects. We all knew guys were going to be sent out, because all of the prospect and pick trading had finally caught up with the team. Seems like more of a hockey move to me...but if you want to trust Timmeh's judgement, that's your call. I doubt he ever even noticed what I just pointed out because he's a complete hack who preferred pseudo-TMC pieces instead of actual analysis.

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03-21-2014, 02:43 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes. But when you factor in the 4 decades of mostly abysmal failure at developing their own Dmen, it's a problem.
Sure, but it's not like those people have held the same jobs for all those decades. So far in the Homer era there haven't been a ton of drafting of defensemen (especially in the early rounds) until the last few years.

There was Sbisa but I think it was more of a case that he just wasn't good as he was originally perceived to be opposed to the Flyers doing anything to derail his development seeing as Anaheim tried to work him into their lineup the next year but had to send him back to juniors again.

I'm willing to use a wait & see approach with this one, there's not much to go on for either side of the coin when just looking at it since Homer took over. I'm not going to let the handling of a bottom pair defender who doesn't have any standout traits that the Flyers don't have a lot invested in swing in the favor of a bad sign for those guys.


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Old
03-21-2014, 03:11 AM
  #40
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That's a bottom pair defender who had outperformed half the Flyers D group. Benched, because Flyers Hockey! or something. Hard to say.

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03-21-2014, 05:14 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Richards and Carter were fine. How quickly we forget that playoff run, and then winning the Cup in LA.

The off ice crap is so blown out of proportion it isn't funny. The media did it because they were sad that they got called out on their crap journalism.

Somehow, I don't think it's a coincidence that those trades just happened to address all the issues the Flyers faced at the time; several roster holes, lack of prospects, lack of picks. The roster was filled, they got picks which became prospects. We all knew guys were going to be sent out, because all of the prospect and pick trading had finally caught up with the team. Seems like more of a hockey move to me...but if you want to trust Timmeh's judgement, that's your call. I doubt he ever even noticed what I just pointed out because he's a complete hack who preferred pseudo-TMC pieces instead of actual analysis.
Agreed. If anything needed to improve it's our crap media being allowed to influence the team as much as it has in the past.

The whole Richards and Carter thing was pathetic.

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03-21-2014, 09:44 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Richards and Carter were fine. How quickly we forget that playoff run, and then winning the Cup in LA.

The off ice crap is so blown out of proportion it isn't funny. The media did it because they were sad that they got called out on their crap journalism.

Somehow, I don't think it's a coincidence that those trades just happened to address all the issues the Flyers faced at the time; several roster holes, lack of prospects, lack of picks. The roster was filled, they got picks which became prospects. We all knew guys were going to be sent out, because all of the prospect and pick trading had finally caught up with the team. Seems like more of a hockey move to me...but if you want to trust Timmeh's judgement, that's your call. I doubt he ever even noticed what I just pointed out because he's a complete hack who preferred pseudo-TMC pieces instead of actual analysis.
Media of course sensationalizes things but it is a mischararacterization to say things were "fine" with Carter and Richards because they were not by Richards own admission. Carter situation again was more of a hockey trade but with Richards it was more despite it being downplayed.

Anyway, let's not forget that Richards and Lavi were not seeing "eye to eye" and in the post season exit meetings with management and the coach it was reported that the organization felt they hit "a wall" with Richards as far as him totally buying into Lavi (warranted or not). They were also not happy with him after the Boston debacle (his play... which even Tocchet was knocking despite the injuries) and how he went AWOL not addressing the media after the the sweep. Again...as the team's captain he still has a responsibility whether he likes it or not even if he didn't like the tools asking the questions. They also were not happy with his adolescent tweet war with the media. Snider also mentioned he didn't feel the team was "growing" together and that the team needed a culture change of sorts. He also said they probably "overrated" the team based on the 2010 cup run. Lots of this is a matter of public record for those willing to do the research and for those without selective memories...

The point of all this is that the Flyers could not continue on the course they were on after the 2010 cinderella run with the ugly stepsister Leighton. The Flyers weren't about to fire another coach (despite his flaws he was starting to exhibit which became more pronounced) so they traded a couple of players who were contributing to the Little groups aspect that Richards himself admits to and who you could gain assets for. You couldn't have a captain and coach not see eye to eye and you couldn't have vets and younger guys being divided. That is the definition of dysfunctional. So to Holmgren's credit and even Snider which is hard for me to do....they made the best of the situation and reaped some real good returns that are bearing fruit now despite steps back that Holmgren took when he didn't follow up the big trades properly IMO like going with Boosh and Leighton, getting Bryz, screwing up Bob and keeping Lavi too long!


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We also learned just how miserable last season was for Richards. His tension with Peter Laviolette was very real, so were the rumored factions in the Flyers' locker room. Given three chances to endorse him at a practice last week, Laviolette would say little more than that he wasn't here for much of Richards' tenure.

"You can focus in putting the energy on the ice, instead of wasting a lot of it off," Richards said about his time in LA so far last Friday. "It's fun coming to the rink again. You don't have to worry about anything. It's not little groups anymore, it's just one big group."


http://articles.philly.com/2011-10-1...rray-boo-birds

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03-21-2014, 11:37 AM
  #43
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Has Snider come to terms with his mortality yet? If not then no, we're still screwed

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03-21-2014, 11:50 AM
  #44
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Media of course sensationalizes things but it is a mischararacterization to say things were "fine" with Carter and Richards because they were not by Richards own admission. Carter situation again was more of a hockey trade but with Richards it was more despite it being downplayed.

Anyway, let's not forget that Richards and Lavi were not seeing "eye to eye" and in the post season exit meetings with management and the coach it was reported that the organization felt they hit "a wall" with Richards as far as him totally buying into Lavi (warranted or not). They were also not happy with him after the Boston debacle (his play... which even Tocchet was knocking despite the injuries) and how he went AWOL not addressing the media after the the sweep. Again...as the team's captain he still has a responsibility whether he likes it or not even if he didn't like the tools asking the questions. They also were not happy with his adolescent tweet war with the media. Snider also mentioned he didn't feel the team was "growing" together and that the team needed a culture change of sorts. He also said they probably "overrated" the team based on the 2010 cup run. Lots of this is a matter of public record for those willing to do the research and for those without selective memories...

The point of all this is that the Flyers could not continue on the course they were on after the 2010 cinderella run with the ugly stepsister Leighton. The Flyers weren't about to fire another coach (despite his flaws he was starting to exhibit which became more pronounced) so they traded a couple of players who were contributing to the Little groups aspect that Richards himself admits to and who you could gain assets for. You couldn't have a captain and coach not see eye to eye and you couldn't have vets and younger guys being divided. That is the definition of dysfunctional. So to Holmgren's credit and even Snider which is hard for me to do....they made the best of the situation and reaped some real good returns that are bearing fruit now despite steps back that Holmgren took when he didn't follow up the big trades properly IMO like going with Boosh and Leighton, getting Bryz, screwing up Bob and keeping Lavi too long!
The point, as it relates to this thread, is still the same though: everything can seem just peachy one season, and the next season everything is turmoil. We still have the same media that likes to start fires, and the same front office that has made a handful of nonsensical decisions in the last 3 years.

Going with Boosh and Leighton happened before the big trades. Re-signing Leighton set everything in motion to fall apart, imo, because it was fuel for that dumpster fire of a series against Boston.

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03-21-2014, 12:48 PM
  #45
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That's the thing though... it proved that Richards and Carter were not the character guys that were needed. There was fun off the ice... too much as it apparently seems...
nonsense, and nothing was proven
if anything has been proven, it's that a team can excel with those two [which had basically been proven here previously]

and as far as fun off the ice...my goodness, if there had been an internet when the BSBullies and some of those 80's teams were roaming around the City and South Jersey...

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03-21-2014, 01:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Richards and Carter were fine. How quickly we forget that playoff run, and then winning the Cup in LA.

The off ice crap is so blown out of proportion it isn't funny. The media did it because they were sad that they got called out on their crap journalism.

Somehow, I don't think it's a coincidence that those trades just happened to address all the issues the Flyers faced at the time; several roster holes, lack of prospects, lack of picks. The roster was filled, they got picks which became prospects. We all knew guys were going to be sent out, because all of the prospect and pick trading had finally caught up with the team. Seems like more of a hockey move to me...but if you want to trust Timmeh's judgement, that's your call. I doubt he ever even noticed what I just pointed out because he's a complete hack who preferred pseudo-TMC pieces instead of actual analysis.
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Agreed. If anything needed to improve it's our crap media being allowed to influence the team as much as it has in the past.

The whole Richards and Carter thing was pathetic.
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
nonsense, and nothing was proven
if anything has been proven, it's that a team can excel with those two [which had basically been proven here previously]

and as far as fun off the ice...my goodness, if there had been an internet when the BSBullies and some of those 80's teams were roaming around the City and South Jersey...
Timmy does not factor into this, I do not base anything on his off ice reporting... In fact, it is more from others ((((CoughCarchidiCough))) where the problem stood.

Had Richards not been the Captain things could have been worked out I suppose... although the question of having a roster full of high character players would still be there... Richards handling of the Media was childish and not beneficial for the team as a whole and its Captain as a big part. Richards and Carter were too close of buddies -- please not the cancerous acts in Columbus forcing a reuniting in LA -- and there where cliques running rampant on the roster... and this is where the comparison with the partying Bullies that I constantly ran into back in the hits a dead end... The Bullies were party animals only as in being social animals in an Area that loved them; they hung in large groups and would go through ways for each other and a Cup... The Richards/Carter era team? Not so much... Could they be successful? With luck over a good span, and a big league goalie in Game Six they would have... But on a consistent basis, they were not what this team wanted as the leaders of the team culture. Had Richards acted his age and acted better with the Media, things might have been different... had he not been the Captain; things also might have been different... If Richards had to go, than Carter also had to go -- ask the Blue Jackets -- Yes they won in LA... but as a part of the Kings, not the face of the Kings... They were and are very talented... they brought fantastic return to the Flyers... With the trades the Flyers were able to give Giroux the reins and reform the character and culture of the team largely around the return added to the character players that remained.

I believe that the Organization, that was really revamped in many areas, learned and wanted the re-tool to include a better off-ice/Room nucleolus... When Richards bucked the Management in addition to the Media, the time was ripe... Richards needed to be a little fish in a big Pond rather than a big fish in a big pond; he needed to be a follower and a single cog, rather than a leader and the main cog... The Kings got their Cup -- which they might have gotten anyway -- and the Flyers got their future and a part of their cultural change... I fear Giroux getting the 'C' also at such a young age, but his route there and his actions there are not the same... also IMO the all around talent level is greater, and the Flyers are G's team more than they were ever Richie's, IMO.

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03-21-2014, 01:40 PM
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I did say that the change started before Berube... but I do think that Chief may have had a larger effect than Hexy... but I don't really know what Hextall has done exactly, and I do want to learn. I'm not knocking Hextall, I just don't know if anyone of us out of the loop can detail what his contribution has been. As I suggested, we have kinda, sorta a timing, but I would guess that other personnel changed occurred also around that time... and is Hexy the tail wagging the dog that is his superior? Hextall was brought in as the assistant GM and IIRC the GM of the Phantoms... we assume as an heir apparent, but can't assume as someone who Homer will be looking over his shoulder at and fearing. My question was... and still is... what has Hexy done in his time here as assistant GM that leads us to believe that he was a major part of the culture change? We do know that he was one of the old school type of hires that the Media screamed at Mr. Snider about... I don't doubt that he may have contributed greatly in these past so many months, but I personally have no idea if he has been that instrumental... I do know that I don't want to give Ron all the credit and ignore the terrific job Homer has done recently... one part of which was selecting as the replacement coach who I believe to be the proper person for the job. If you can inform me of what Hexy has done that leads you to believe that he was the missing link... please do so... short of that I have no clue exactly what his contribution has been... I only know what the hopes were that he brought with him, and how he gave so many people who want Homer gone a person to rally behind and support.

I need no proof... I need information, not a baseless assumption and a incidental timeline.
Ok, I know you brought up Berube as being a bigger factor than Hexy in terms of how things have turned around on the ice, and I agree, but your question was about organizational function which just leaves Berube out of the conversation. Ofcouse, It's not like I can give you transcripts between Homer and Hexy but come on here man, he's assistant GM. The GM (Homer)is in charge or organizational function in the context youre talking about and his Assistant GM (Hextall) would be directly involved there. That's your information. He's one of the guys doing the job that you're highlighting improvements in, that's really not baseless. Contributed greatly? The nature of the improvement of function we're talking about comes from, in a sense, holding back from "contributions" and moves. All of a sudden Homer seems to be out of everyone gaze and is exercising patience this year (we all know how Homer typically does his thing), I feel like the most obvious factor to this would be that which is directly effecting his position, which would be his assistant. I also didn't imply that Homlgren has a fear of him for any reason or that they're looking over eachothers shoulder, I don't know where you make this stuff up from. I simply feel that it's not some kind of competition and that they're working together on their job of Generally Managing, and I feel like it would be Hexy who has helped to take the wildcard edge of of Holmgren this year for these reasons. I have always supported Homlgren and I'm not taking any credit from him, i'm also not rallying behind Hextall. You made a bunch of this **** up and are putting it in my mouth. I like Homlgren as our GM and feel that he's done an axcellent job at rebuilding this team in his tenure. But he achieves this in very dramatic fashion and that's why I think Hexy was brought in now, to help stabilize the roster movement and help analyze all the great talent Homer snaked in for us.

Figure out what you're really asking here. On the ice or in the office? If you fail to see the correlation between Holmgren calming down and backing off from the media/rumors/etc this year with the arrival of an assistant GM, then I can't really help you there. Also, if you feel that a coach has more of an impact on organizational function than an assistant GM does then I can't help there either and our opinions remain our own. But you really can't say that a coach stabilizes the way an organization functions.

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03-21-2014, 01:51 PM
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zarley zelepukin
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Timmy does not factor into this, I do not base anything on his off ice reporting... In fact, it is more from others ((((CoughCarchidiCough))) where the problem stood.

Had Richards not been the Captain things could have been worked out I suppose... although the question of having a roster full of high character players would still be there... Richards handling of the Media was childish and not beneficial for the team as a whole and its Captain as a big part. Richards and Carter were too close of buddies -- please not the cancerous acts in Columbus forcing a reuniting in LA -- and there where cliques running rampant on the roster... and this is where the comparison with the partying Bullies that I constantly ran into back in the hits a dead end... The Bullies were party animals only as in being social animals in an Area that loved them; they hung in large groups and would go through ways for each other and a Cup... The Richards/Carter era team? Not so much... Could they be successful? With luck over a good span, and a big league goalie in Game Six they would have... But on a consistent basis, they were not what this team wanted as the leaders of the team culture. Had Richards acted his age and acted better with the Media, things might have been different... had he not been the Captain; things also might have been different... If Richards had to go, than Carter also had to go -- ask the Blue Jackets -- Yes they won in LA... but as a part of the Kings, not the face of the Kings... They were and are very talented... they brought fantastic return to the Flyers... With the trades the Flyers were able to give Giroux the reins and reform the character and culture of the team largely around the return added to the character players that remained.

I believe that the Organization, that was really revamped in many areas, learned and wanted the re-tool to include a better off-ice/Room nucleolus... When Richards bucked the Management in addition to the Media, the time was ripe... Richards needed to be a little fish in a big Pond rather than a big fish in a big pond; he needed to be a follower and a single cog, rather than a leader and the main cog... The Kings got their Cup -- which they might have gotten anyway -- and the Flyers got their future and a part of their cultural change... I fear Giroux getting the 'C' also at such a young age, but his route there and his actions there are not the same... also IMO the all around talent level is greater, and the Flyers are G's team more than they were ever Richie's, IMO.
You're underselling what they meant to the Kings' run. They don't win without those guys. They might not have even made the playoffs without the Carter trade. And Richards was an excellent player as a big fish in a big pond, he didn't "need" to go to a city with less of a magnifying glass.

Furthermore, I doubt there are many, maybe any, teams in the NHL that aren't at least somewhat cliquish. It's 22 guys from different parts of the world, of course there are going to be some players who are close and some who are just teammates. More serious rifts can develop over time, and just because all the stories are positive right now doesn't mean they'll stay that way.

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03-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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Ok, I know you brought up Berube as being a bigger factor than Hexy in terms of how things have turned around on the ice, and I agree, but your question was about organizational function which just leaves Berube out of the conversation. Ofcouse, It's not like I can give you transcripts between Homer and Hexy but come on here man, he's assistant GM. The GM (Homer)is in charge or organizational function in the context youre talking about and his Assistant GM (Hextall) would be directly involved there. That's your information. He's one of the guys doing the job that you're highlighting improvements in, that's really not baseless. Contributed greatly? The nature of the improvement of function we're talking about comes from, in a sense, holding back from "contributions" and moves. All of a sudden Homer seems to be out of everyone gaze and is exercising patience this year (we all know how Homer typically does his thing), I feel like the most obvious factor to this would be that which is directly effecting his position, which would be his assistant. I also didn't imply that Homlgren has a fear of him for any reason or that they're looking over eachothers shoulder, I don't know where you make this stuff up from. I simply feel that it's not some kind of competition and that they're working together on their job of Generally Managing, and I feel like it would be Hexy who has helped to take the wildcard edge of of Holmgren this year for these reasons. I have always supported Homlgren and I'm not taking any credit from him, i'm also not rallying behind Hextall. You made a bunch of this **** up and are putting it in my mouth. I like Homlgren as our GM and feel that he's done an axcellent job at rebuilding this team in his tenure. But he achieves this in very dramatic fashion and that's why I think Hexy was brought in now, to help stabilize the roster movement and help analyze all the great talent Homer snaked in for us.

Figure out what you're really asking here. On the ice or in the office? If you fail to see the correlation between Holmgren calming down and backing off from the media/rumors/etc this year with the arrival of an assistant GM, then I can't really help you there. Also, if you feel that a coach has more of an impact on organizational function than an assistant GM does then I can't help there either and our opinions remain our own. But you really can't say that a coach stabilizes the way an organization functions.
Purely circumstantial... nothing more... unless we can get information that sways it one way or another. I'm sorry but I can't merely assume that Hexy comes here and all good happens based on his presence. If we can not get any hints of information than I can't determine how much a part of anything Hexy is responsible for... Sorry, but I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that we have no real clue... I believe, BTW, that Hexy as GM of the Phantoms has more bearing on the Farm System's goings on.

As to the Coach's influence compared to an Assistant GM... If we are talking about the Gm who has full responsibility, then I totally agree... but with an assistant, I'd put more responsibility with the coach than with a person who assists the GM.

I'm sorry and I didn't mean to put words on your mouth... I was speaking in general about the many fans who are waiting/expecting for Hexy to push Homer out... I didn't mean to imply that you were in that camp; my wording may not have been very clear on that... my apologies for that.

But yes, we will have to agree to disagree... You feel Hexy has done much, and I just don't know... so I can't say one way or another.

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03-21-2014, 02:17 PM
  #50
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You're underselling what they meant to the Kings' run. They don't win without those guys. They might not have even made the playoffs without the Carter trade. And Richards was an excellent player as a big fish in a big pond, he didn't "need" to go to a city with less of a magnifying glass.

Furthermore, I doubt there are many, maybe any, teams in the NHL that aren't at least somewhat cliquish. It's 22 guys from different parts of the world, of course there are going to be some players who are close and some who are just teammates. More serious rifts can develop over time, and just because all the stories are positive right now doesn't mean they'll stay that way.
Carter may have been what they needed to reach the PostSeason... But I believe he was just a part of the Cup win; there were many more important players who you can say won the Cup for the Kings.


FWIW... These were posted on my Twitter feed:

Dennis Bernstein ‏@DennisTFP 47m
Mike Richards - 4th line center per @lakingsinsider. Kings don't have an effective 2C with less than a month to go before post season.

Dennis Bernstein ‏@DennisTFP 25m
Mike Richards lineup move indicator of increasing chatter he must return to form in playoffs to secure long term future in LA(trade/buyout)



... Please don't shoot the messenger.

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