From what I remember hearing about Sakic is he was too quiet as a captain and isn't very vocal or emotional. He doesn't do much in the locker room. I could be wrong but that's what I heard during the playoffs last year.
Minnesota likes their rotating captinacy and they have two permanant alternatives. In the future though either Wallin, Koivu, Burns, or Mitchell might get the C I hope it's either Wallin or Burns
Alex Zhamnov, I know itis tough to be a captain will all the problems that went on last year, but the only reason he is captain is he is the most skilled player on the team. He admitted the last time he was captain of a team was when he was around 12. (Should Be Sullivan)
Well, they wanted to give him less money to, I believe, put more money into the team. So he bolted when they wanted to give him less then 10 mil for 65-75 points a season
No, he bolted to play with Teemu and win a cup together. Damn whiny Anaheim fans.
Sundin is also a good captain but we all know how much love the Leafs get around here. Hell, every captain in the team's history is probably bad according to some people...
Yzerman a bad captain? Put down the crackpipe son.
I'm going to get absolutely shellshocked for this, but... I don't think Saku Koivu is a very good captain.
Don't get me wrong, he showed an awesome courage when he came back from cancer and was a real inspiration for the whole team. Koivu is a very hard worker who gives everything he has on every shift. I don't think anyone on the Habs roster gives as much effort on the ice as Koivu does.
But, what makes a good captain? Certainly Koivu has great qualities... but...
The Canadiens last year were as far as you can get to a "team". Players fought in practices, the team was separated into a lot of small groups who rarely interacted with each other... and, well, pretty much everything we heard about that dressing room was a horror story. The players had ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT for Michel Therrien, so much that after a while no one listened to him anymore.
Not to mention some comments that Koivu made that could just... make you shake your head sometimes. Like that thing about Garon playing better than any goalie he has ever seen... wonder how Theodore felt about that one.
Do you think that Steve Yzerman or Scott Stevens would have let crap like that happen to a team? I even heard rumours about the Habs considering to give Quintal the captaincy at some point, although I don't know if that was true and I don't think it would have solved anything.
For someone not aware of many things that have actually been said off the record,you made some points. But the thing is, there's no heart in this team, and we're filled with one-dimensional non-working cherry pickers. Overall there's no chemistry. There's also two clans in the locker room. The Theodore one and the Saku one. The Theodore one gets a lot of good press. Many journalist are actually close friends of Theodore. Theodore's career is even managed at some extend by Guy Cloutier. There's a lot a positive propaganda in Theodore's favor. But those media who are with Theodore are also against Koivu. For obvious reasons, Saku is the better player and the habs management will have to choose between Saku and Jose when the money will be an issue (there's 2 years remaining on both Saku's and Jose's contract!). So they want to keep Theodore up the the "race". Koivu has been VOTED capitain YEARS ago. For his LEADERSHIP skills and hard working. But he's been surrounded of crappy players, a bad locker room and a bad media propaganda (ala 110%). Now, you're saying that Yzerman or Stevens wouldn't let that? Oh well, if they would try to be bigger than Theodore they would receive the kind of treatment you wish you'll never get... And with a such team with no heart, there's no one else than a heart surgeon who could give those player a heart. Stevens or Yzerman would not be able to get them working harder or not being that way. This team consists of egoist, media-created monsters and heartless players. Tell me that Stevens or Yzerman could change that; the only way would be that they take the GM spot!
From what I remember hearing about Sakic is he was too quiet as a captain and isn't very vocal or emotional. He doesn't do much in the locker room. I could be wrong but that's what I heard during the playoffs last year.
Untrue. While Sakic prefers to not speak to the media, that is not the same as speaking to his teammates. Other players have said nothing but good things about him and if they are saying nothing but good things, well, he must be doing something to deserve that C. Of course, none of us hockey fans really know the truth since we've never been in the locker rooms during a game.
I think teams can handle having a captain that isn't the ideal captain. That is as long as you get leadership from other guys. For example in Anaheim you have guys like Steve Rucchin who will be a leader no matter if he has a letter on his jersey or not.
And some captains don't have to be very vocal to be good captains. Sakic and Gretzky fall into the lead by example category of captains. They work hard in practice and matches etc instead of giving firebrand speeches. And the respect a guy like Sakic gets from his teammates shows he is a good captain. He also is a very classy guy (like handing over the cup to Bourque right after getting it) which goes a long way.
Kariya wasn't a good captain. He sulked, he didn't talk to media or the fans until Selanne convinced him to be more open with people. He was quiet, he wasn't too physical etc.
Good captains are players who WORK HARD and WITH EMOTION. You don't have to be the best player, you simply need to show example by giving your 110%. Kelly Buchberger is a good example of that, he was respected by all players because his fearless (borderline stupid) attitude.
Generally I don't think good captains are player who hold out for more money, for example Kariya sat for several months demanding more money and that shows very poor example to the team, it tells others that your personal needs go before team's needs.
Hang on are you saying that Kariya didn't have a good work ethic?
Thats an insult towards Kariya, he stuck by that horrible franchise and they wouldn't put any money into the team so they could win. He was a true leader and needed to move on.
You need to check your facts before you speak.
The Ducks put money into the team for sure. When Kariya, Selanne and Hebert were all playing together (until 00-01), the Ducks were 7th in the league in player payroll. It was just that a disproportionate amount of the total payroll was tied up in these three players, with Kariya leading the way at $10M/yr. So fast forward to this past season and offseason. When it looks like the Ducks are starting to turn the franchise around, and they need their captain to take a pay cut to try to improve the team (hey, didn't Steve Yzerman do this so the Wings could sign Hull? Wow, what a concept!), the captain bolts. Yeah, that's leadership. Guess Kariya didn't want to be a captain like Yzerman so much after all, even though that was what he was telling everyone.
If Kariya didn't say things in the media to build up his loyal captain, good soldier image (by sticking it out with the Ducks when they sucked), him jumping ship wouldn't be so much an issue. The problem is his actions don't match his words or the image he has so carefully been spinning for the last nine years.
When people, especially the Canadian media and hockey fans, accused Kariya of staying in Anaheim only for the money (because why else would *anyone* who loved the sport of hockey *want* to play in the hockey purgatory that is Anaheim?), Anaheim fans defended Kariya's actions because he always said these accusations were not true. So now look who was right and who was wrong.
Leadership isn't bleeding an organization for $10M/yr. and then bolting to another team, with whom you have no history, for $1.2M/yr., when your team needs your help so they can be stronger in the long run.
Kariya shouldn't have been captain, he's a good plyaer, just not captain material. A guy like Rucchin should have been captain all along; someone more gritty and isn't afraid to get their hands dirty. And I don't think Kariya is a guy to lead by example, Sakic and Yzerman fit that to a tee, when a player holds out for more money, I just lose a ton of respect for them, even if it is part of the business.
Kariya wasn't a good captain. He sulked, he didn't talk to media or the fans until Selanne convinced him to be more open with people. He was quiet, he wasn't too physical etc.
Good captains are players who WORK HARD and WITH EMOTION. You don't have to be the best player, you simply need to show example by giving your 110%. Kelly Buchberger is a good example of that, he was respected by all players because his fearless (borderline stupid) attitude.
Generally I don't think good captains are player who hold out for more money, for example Kariya sat for several months demanding more money and that shows very poor example to the team, it tells others that your personal needs go before team's needs.
Kariya was shy during the early stages of his career, sure, but when he became captain again, he wasn't at all. If you say kariya didn't work hard, or play with emotion, you are a damned fool.
Somebody please tell me when it was a requirement that all captain's need to be physical players?
Quote:
Leadership isn't bleeding an organization for $10M/yr. and then bolting to another team, with whom you have no history, for $1.2M/yr., when your team needs your help so they can be stronger in the long run.
Why should he have stayed? The team clearly didn't want him back. Selanne and him wanted to be together. There was no reason to stay with a team that turned their backs on him.
Why should he have stayed? The team clearly didn't want him back.
What do you mean the team didn't want him back? Where did you hear that? Everything I read and heard said they did want him back, just not at $10M/yr.
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Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
Selanne and him wanted to be together.
They could have been back together in Anaheim. According to the Globe and Mail, Kariya and Bryan Murray had discussions early in the off season about the Ducks plans and Kariya even went so far as to suggest that Selanne was a player Kariya could talk to about coming to Anaheim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
There was no reason to stay with a team that turned their backs on him.
No. Wrong. Kariya turned his back on the Ducks organization, his team mates who carried *him* to the seventh game of the SCF, and to the Anaheim fans that supported him for nine years.
Why should he have stayed? The team clearly didn't want him back.
What do you mean the team didn't want him back? Where did you hear that? Everything I read and heard said they did want him back, just not at $10M/yr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
Selanne and him wanted to be together.
They could have been back together in Anaheim. According to the Globe and Mail, Kariya and Bryan Murray had discussions early in the off season about the Ducks plans and Kariya even went so far as to suggest that Selanne was a player Kariya could talk to about coming to Anaheim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod
There was no reason to stay with a team that turned their backs on him.
No. Wrong. Kariya turned his back on the Ducks organization, his team mates who carried *him* to the seventh game of the SCF, and to the Anaheim fans that supported him for nine years.
Thats an insult towards Kariya, he stuck by that horrible franchise and they wouldn't put any money into the team so they could win. He was a true leader and needed to move on.
JustMaintainingIgnorance:
The franchise that "wouldn't put money into the team" is carrying a $54 million dollar payroll as we speak. Would you care to take a look at how that compares around the league? We wouldn't have been able to improve the team as much as we have if Captain Cardboard was still eating up ten million in salary. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
No. Wrong. Kariya turned his back on the Ducks organization, his team mates who carried *him* to the seventh game of the SCF, and to the Anaheim fans that supported him for nine years.
What do you mean the team didn't want him back? Where did you hear that? Everything I read and heard said they did want him back, just not at $10M/yr.
They could have been back together in Anaheim. According to the Globe and Mail, Kariya and Bryan Murray had discussions early in the off season about the Ducks plans and Kariya even went so far as to suggest that Selanne was a player Kariya could talk to about coming to Anaheim.
No. Wrong. Kariya turned his back on the Ducks organization, his team mates who carried *him* to the seventh game of the SCF, and to the Anaheim fans that supported him for nine years.
Yes, right... They carried him. He scored a point a game but they carried him right? Ok... I guess half the players who have ever made it have been carried too...
Yes, right... They carried him. He scored a point a game but they carried him right? Ok... I guess half the players who have ever made it have been carried too...
Okay obfuscate all you want.
Well anyway, PK's points didn't exactly carry the Ducks to game seven of the SCF alone, did they? He was one of several players who lead the team in production; if you recall the Ducks had very balanced team scoring all throughout the playoffs. But PK didn't exactly stand out in the SCFs with the exception of scoring after the Stevens hit. He sure didn't take a leadership role. And isn't that the topic of this thread? I'll spell it out for you: L-E-A-D-E-R-S-H-I-P. Can you read that? And I don't mean leading in scoring. That really proves the strength of a team captain? Maybe in your twisted thought process.
No, you are so myopic in your blind devotion to Paul Kariya that you can't see what real leadership is.
Was it Paul Kariya, the captain, who stood up and addressed his team mates and the media when the Ducks were down 0-2 in the SCFs? No, that would be Jiggy. Where was the captain? At some point (the SCFs would be a good point), the captain, even one who leads by example, needs to take a stand and light a fire under the team when they don't show up for the most important games of their careers.
People who know the Ducks say that Steve Rucchin has been the heart and soul of the team, and he, Keith Carney, and Jiggy are the real leaders of the team. The true leadership of the Ducks was apparent in the SC playoffs, and it wasn't your Lord and Savior Kariya. Maybe that's another reason why he bolted. He knew the Ducks were no longer his team.
If Anaheim really wanted to keep Kariya they would have qualified him. Committing to Fedorov long term instead was a mistake. The guy is in his mid 30's, and in terms of production has actually been outscored by the supposedly underachieving Kariya by a 392 to 345 margin in the last five years. Kariya played with a cellar dweller, Fedorov played with a bunch of future Hall of Famers. To not qualify Kariya and then turn around and sign a guy who isn't an upgrade for almost the same money long term is just nonsense. Goes to show money wasn't the issue.
If Anaheim really wanted to keep Kariya they would have qualified him. Committing to Fedorov long term instead was a mistake. The guy is in his mid 30's, and in terms of production has actually been outscored by the supposedly underachieving Kariya by a 392 to 345 margin in the last five years. Kariya played with a cellar dweller, Fedorov played with a bunch of future Hall of Famers. To not qualify Kariya and then turn around and sign a guy who isn't an upgrade for almost the same money long term is just nonsense. Goes to show money wasn't the issue.
I guess defensive ability counts for nothing in your world? Or playoff record?
Fedorov has multiple Selke trophies, a Hart trophy as a much better playoff record than Kariya, and is much more likely to thrive under Babcock's defensive system than Kariya. He's easily twice the player Kariya is.
Fun fact about Paul: In his entire career he has only once had a higher PPG in the playoffs than regular season, and that was 98-99 when he had 4 points in 3 games in the playoffs (as Anaheim got swept) and 101 points in 82 games during the regular season.
Fedorov? All but twice. Once in his rookie campaign, and once last season in the 4 games before Detroit bowed out.
Taking it back five years is convenient, since five years ago was Paul's last 100 point season. How about the last three years? Fedorov has outscored Paulie 220 to 205. While playing on the second line (and for a stretch, on the BLUEline). And Feds actually plays defense. There ain't no contest here. It's an UPGRADE.
Untrue. While Sakic prefers to not speak to the media, that is not the same as speaking to his teammates. Other players have said nothing but good things about him and if they are saying nothing but good things, well, he must be doing something to deserve that C. Of course, none of us hockey fans really know the truth since we've never been in the locker rooms during a game.
I agree with the latter part of your comment. There is no true way for us fans to completely 'judge' captains, especially label them as 'bad,' unless it becomes so apparent that they've done something wrong or don't have the respect of his teammates.
While there are certain factors, most notably on ice play (i.e. leading by example), I don't think its particularly easy to get a gadge of what goes on in the locker room, and what doesn't. There are so many ******** rumours out there today.
And personally, I will never put emphasis on judging a captain based on his ability to "take" his team to the promised land. Hockey is a team sport, and 20 odd some guys are equally accountable for wins and losses. A captain can only do so much. For that matter, so can a coach.
If Anaheim really wanted to keep Kariya they would have qualified him. Committing to Fedorov long term instead was a mistake. The guy is in his mid 30's, and in terms of production has actually been outscored by the supposedly underachieving Kariya by a 392 to 345 margin in the last five years. Kariya played with a cellar dweller, Fedorov played with a bunch of future Hall of Famers.
You sound like Randy Youngman, a *cough* reporter with the OC Register, and full-time Kariya butt kisser and publicist.
Well, PK's production didn't merit $10M/yr. In 98-99 he had 101 points. Then after he held out and signed his $10M/yr. contract, his production dropped to 86 points in 99-00; 67 in 00-01; 57 in 01-02; and 81 in 02-03. So those numbers are worth $10M/yr.? If you were the GM of the Ducks and handled all player salary negotiations, they would definitely be the Rangers of the West.
And for part of those five years, Kariya played with Selanne, hardly chopped liver in terms of scoring. And last year (you know, the non-cellar dwelling year), Kariya played with Adam Oates and Petr Sykora, so that helped his numbers also
Fedorov is 33, same age as Selanne; you make him sound like he's on his last legs. Also, part of Fedorov's value is his ability to play great two-way hockey. If a player is playing both ends of the ice instead hanging around the perimeters a lot, then of course he isn't going to be scoring as much. A lot of people, non-Duck fans included, would say Fedorov is an upgrade over Kariya.
Anyway the point of asking Kariya to take a pay cut was the Ducks were trying to improve the team, but they needed Kariya to be flexible with his salary. If Paul Kariya really wanted to finish what he started, and stay with Anaheim to try to win the SC (he did say that you know), it seem like he would have been more willing the renegotiate his contract.
What Bryan Murray did was take a chance that Kariya was willing to stay in Anaheim for les than $10M/yr. But if Kariya and Murray discussed what Anaheim's plans were as Murray said they did (see what I said above re:the Globe and Mail article), then Kariya deliberately mislead Murray into thinking he was agreeable to taking a pay cut when he really wasn't. This misrepresentation might have been a factor in Murray taking the chance of not qualifying Kariya.
The Ducks went after Fedorov after Kariya forced their hands. And in regards to Fedorovs contract, could it be possible that Murray actually had a reason for structuring the Fedorov contract in the manner that he did (with the player options after the first two years and the contract being front loaded)? I'm not sure Murray is exactly counting on Fedorov being with the Ducks long term.
QUOTE=Stephen]To not qualify Kariya and then turn around and sign a guy who isn't an upgrade for almost the same money long term is just nonsense. Goes to show money wasn't the issue.[/QUOTE]
Fedorov's contract averages out to $8M/yr., so that is a difference of $2M/yr. And, discounting the signing bonuses, the Ducks actually got both Fedorov and Prospal ($3.3M) for not much more than what they would have paid for just Kariya. I would say that's an upgrade. Goes to show money was the issue.
And as I said before, they probably would not have gone after Fedorov if Kariya had resigned for less. Or maybe as Murray facetiously said, the Ducks might have gone after Fedorov if Kariya signed with Anaheim for $1.2M.
What Bryan Murray did was take a chance that Kariya was willing to stay in Anaheim for less than $10M/yr. But if Kariya and Murray discussed what Anaheim's plans were as Murray said they did (see what I said above re:the Globe and Mail article), then Kariya deliberately mislead Murray into thinking he was agreeable to taking a pay cut when he really wasn't. This misrepresentation might have been a factor in Murray taking the chance of not qualifying Kariya.
Wasn't Kariya interviewed recently in the OC register and said that he wasn't aware of not being given his qualifying offer until an hour before the deadline. Indicating he hadn't held any discussions with Murray about taking a paycut?
You know I can see why the Ducks fans don't like Kariya and I don't blame them. Though when you look at it Federov>Kariya so they are a better team because of the move. Why still moan and groan about it. Kariya's departure has done the team a favour.
Maybe its time to get over it. If not at least leave the Kariya bashing off a decent thread like this one.
I hope it's either Wallin or Burns 
