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Future Roster Construction and Various Pipe Dreams

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Old
04-02-2014, 09:04 PM
  #76
BigG44
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Reason #1 I don't want to sign Paul Stastny. See the Clarkson contract. Ignore his play on the ice. Look only at the contract.

I just lost the Mirtle link, but I can paraphrase the reason Clarkson's contract is bad for the game - particularly the team signing it. Stastny is the premier FA target this summer. Nearly every team has money and cap space, and the new way to lure FAs to your team is to sign buyout proof contracts. That's what Clarkson signed this summer, and it's reasonable to assume Stastny's agent will pursue a similar construction ... this is a copy cat league.

$27.75 million of Clarkson's $36.75 million dollar contract (75.5%) is an ironclad signing bonus. It is not subject to the 2/3rds rule of a buyout, and it is due in full. Per Mirtle, if they were to buyout this contract this summer, Clarkson would still collect all but 8% of the total money due to him.

Since the CBA views all money as player salary, an unnamed agent mentioned in the story that you have to put in detailed language that this is a true signing bonus rather than salary compensation. Since the CBA language only concerns accounting money for salary space and payroll, there's nothing that prevents teams from agreeing to the language that guarantee's a contract.

FA is an evil ******* and suits keep finding ways around the league's best efforts to bring some sanity back to the process. Clarkson is not the first contract with this type of structure FWIW.

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04-02-2014, 09:26 PM
  #77
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Richards is another example of premeire free agent getting a trainereck of a contract

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04-02-2014, 09:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FrailSwan View Post
Richards is another example of premeire free agent getting a trainereck of a contract
His is bad, but it's still only 46.7% of the contract tied up as a signing bonus.

A guy busting as a signing is thing ... a risk you'll never eliminate. Giving yourself zero room for error and essentially guaranteeing the contract on top of taking the risk is just nuts. The Leafs left themselves with zero room for error. There's no doubt in my mind Statsny's deal will pull the same trick.

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04-02-2014, 10:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
His is bad, but it's still only 46.7% of the contract tied up as a signing bonus.

A guy busting as a signing is thing ... a risk you'll never eliminate. Giving yourself zero room for error and essentially guaranteeing the contract on top of taking the risk is just nuts. The Leafs left themselves with zero room for error. There's no doubt in my mind Statsny's deal will pull the same trick.
To be fair, there was bigger money on the table in Edmonton for Clarkson, this might be the new NMC in terms of getting players to sign for less. Plus lots of people knew it was a terrible contract the minute it was signed. Statsny is the top UFA because he is a legit offensive player not because of one flukey 30 goal season and two front offices that have major hard ons for adding grit to thier lineups.

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04-03-2014, 07:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
To be fair, there was bigger money on the table in Edmonton for Clarkson, this might be the new NMC in terms of getting players to sign for less. Plus lots of people knew it was a terrible contract the minute it was signed. Statsny is the top UFA because he is a legit offensive player not because of one flukey 30 goal season and two front offices that have major hard ons for adding grit to thier lineups.
Yes but like Clarkson, Stastny is not a first line player. He's going to get first line money like Clarkson received, and it probably will be mostly guaranteed.

There's very little upside to signing guys like this. You're mostly just taking on significant risk. The best teams in the league usually have 1 monster FA signing ... two max. The rest is home grown talent or guys they traded for and developed overall. You just can't afford to build through FA.

Stasty seems pretty freaking risky to dump a boatload of cash on for some one who only has slightly above average 2nd line production. I don't see how is extra 15 or 20 points a year are going to be worth $3 to $4 million more than Eakin.

I get at some point Dallas will probably need to add a big fish free agent. With the cap jumping so much in the next few years potentially you might even be able to add 2 or 3 bigger signings.

I just personally don't see the benefit of giving a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point center close to if not more than $7 million. He's already making $6.6 million a year ... can't really see him making less in this market.

He does seem like a good fit for Dallas, but you're paying a premium for slightly above average production, and a slight bounce back in a contract year. I have the confidence in the scouting department that they could find similar production much cheaper elsewhere. I hope Nilll does as well. You only get so many monster contracts.

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04-03-2014, 10:43 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Yes but like Clarkson, Stastny is not a first line player. He's going to get first line money like Clarkson received, and it probably will be mostly guaranteed.

There's very little upside to signing guys like this. You're mostly just taking on significant risk. The best teams in the league usually have 1 monster FA signing ... two max. The rest is home grown talent or guys they traded for and developed overall. You just can't afford to build through FA.

Stasty seems pretty freaking risky to dump a boatload of cash on for some one who only has slightly above average 2nd line production. I don't see how is extra 15 or 20 points a year are going to be worth $3 to $4 million more than Eakin.

I get at some point Dallas will probably need to add a big fish free agent. With the cap jumping so much in the next few years potentially you might even be able to add 2 or 3 bigger signings.

I just personally don't see the benefit of giving a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point center close to if not more than $7 million. He's already making $6.6 million a year ... can't really see him making less in this market.

He does seem like a good fit for Dallas, but you're paying a premium for slightly above average production, and a slight bounce back in a contract year. I have the confidence in the scouting department that they could find similar production much cheaper elsewhere. I hope Nilll does as well. You only get so many monster contracts.
I don't think you can compare Statsny to Clarkson. I think there are at least a handful of teams that Statsny would be the 1st line center for, and he has 3 70+ pt seasons in his career already. A bad Statsny production year in which he was healthy is still going to have more points than the career year Clarkson had in 11-12. Plus the raise he might get as a UFA isn't going to be 100% of his current salary.

Mostly I agree with you though, and if the thought is that because of an internal budget we should sign a 2nd tier offensive free agent and a RHD instead of just Statsny I am on board with that as well.

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04-03-2014, 11:33 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
I don't think you can compare Statsny to Clarkson. I think there are at least a handful of teams that Statsny would be the 1st line center for, and he has 3 70+ pt seasons in his career already. A bad Statsny production year in which he was healthy is still going to have more points than the career year Clarkson had in 11-12. Plus the raise he might get as a UFA isn't going to be 100% of his current salary.

Mostly I agree with you though, and if the thought is that because of an internal budget we should sign a 2nd tier offensive free agent and a RHD instead of just Statsny I am on board with that as well.
I agree with you this year you're getting the better player, but the reason they are comparable is they are the top UFA in a summer. Clarkson lucked out when several other better players re-signed. Play on the ice though I totally agree they aren't comparable.

Personally though, I'm uneasy about just throwing out that Stastny is a 70 point guy when he only did that early in his career, and it's been over 4 years. It's a well documented phenomenon ... even if it is strange ... but the NHL scorer that is prolific at a young age often falls apart as he gets older. Few guys have staying power as top line point producers.

I really don't have a problem with Stastny on the ice. I actually enjoy seeing him play for Dallas if I could totally ignore the contract situation. I like that side of the game though, and it's tough to ignore. His future contract scares the hell out of me. I look at what Chicago did with Hossa. He was a great piece to help push them over the top ... an elite talent. Statny is a very good hockey player. I don't know that he's elite.

I understand some people only want to focus year to year, but big picture I say gamble that you can land a truly elite talent to mx in with Benn and Seguin rather than settling. Maybe that happens as soon as next year. Ottawa is playing as a budget team. Maybe Bobby Ryan isn't too interested in that type of situation. Spezza is already rumored as a guy they'll shop. If both of those guys go to market next year, do you want to have a $7 million contract tied up with Stastny? I get this is essentially the Dallas Mavericks argument. The Mavs gambled and failed. They looked years down the line hoping to land a big fish. Personally I'm OK with that. I'd rather go big and then have to settle for a cheaper back up plan than go big on a guy they might not be deserving.

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Old
04-05-2014, 12:57 PM
  #83
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We either throw big money at someone or trade away premo assets.

My first choice of a 2nd line center is Ryan Kesler. I think he's the perfect mould. Contract is pretty darn good too at just 5 mill per for the next two seasons.

I think he's the best guy to give us that 1-2 punch down the middle ala Modano-Nieuwendyk, Gretzky-Messier, Sakic-Forsberg, Yzerman-Fedorov, Lemieux-Francis, well you catch my drift.

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04-05-2014, 02:03 PM
  #84
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I wonder if Nill could swap Daley for Kelser? I'm not sure if the nucks need another D man, I don't really follow them.

That would solve the 2C issue and free up a spot on the back end to sign a free agent D like Fayne

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04-05-2014, 02:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by jhr1986 View Post
I wonder if Nill could swap Daley for Kelser? I'm not sure if the nucks need another D man, I don't really follow them.

That would solve the 2C issue and free up a spot on the back end to sign a free agent D like Fayne
There's no way Daley would get us Kesler.

It'd have to be Eakin + Chiasson +

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04-05-2014, 02:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jhr1986 View Post
I wonder if Nill could swap Daley for Kelser? I'm not sure if the nucks need another D man, I don't really follow them.

That would solve the 2C issue and free up a spot on the back end to sign a free agent D like Fayne
Yeah it would have to be our 1st + Chiasson + Faksa or something like that. Some may not want to do that one. I think I would.

I think they'd ask for Eakin to replenish center depth and possibly ask for one of Dillon or Oleksiak too. I'd rather do the 1st deal. Wouldn't do this one.

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04-05-2014, 02:45 PM
  #87
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For me it would depend on whether or not an extension could be worked out pre-trade. I'm not too into the idea of giving up the kinds of assets being talked about for only two years of a guy.

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04-05-2014, 02:46 PM
  #88
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For me it would depend on whether or not an extension could be worked out pre-trade. I'm not too into the idea of giving up the kinds of assets being talked about for only two years of a guy.
You can't extend a player further out than 1 year from when his contract is up.

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04-05-2014, 05:24 PM
  #89
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I love Kesler but not at the cost of acquisition. Just sign up Statsny long term.

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04-05-2014, 06:34 PM
  #90
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For me it would depend on whether or not an extension could be worked out pre-trade. I'm not too into the idea of giving up the kinds of assets being talked about for only two years of a guy.
I know it's a risk, but I think you gotta have confidence here. It it was one year left you'd be allowed to talk extension, but also one year may not be enough to make a player feel at home. I think knowing the direction we're headed + with the stable management and ownership, we take the chance go to work on an extension as soon as we're allowed to.

I like Stastny too, but I doubt he doesn't re-sign in Colorado. And we'd certainly be overpaying by a good amount.

We're either going to give up assets or overpay largely here. I like Kesler as a player a little better than I like Stastny and I'm confident we can extend him for a fair price. That's where my vote goes.

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04-05-2014, 06:46 PM
  #91
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Yo, I don't even know how you guys can think about this stuff.
I'm too tuned in to the playoff race to think about the offseason.

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04-05-2014, 07:05 PM
  #92
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Yo, I don't even know how you guys can think about this stuff.
I'm too tuned in to the playoff race to think about the offseason.
grow a beard?


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04-05-2014, 08:31 PM
  #93
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Regardless of contracts, we need a legitimate second line centre next year. Whether that's filled through trade or free agency, it needs to get done. Statsny is attractive but be prepared to give him more than six million a season for six or seven years.

Perhaps I'm the only one left on the boards who would want this but in the event Richards gets bought out I'd want to bring him back on a 4x4.5 deal. Or something around that. Perfect second line centre while we wait for someone in our organization to develop into that role.

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04-05-2014, 09:32 PM
  #94
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Saw Subban in person again tonight, and he is everything we need on this team. If there's even a 1% chance of making him happen this offseason, Nill should look into it. Just the total package.

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04-05-2014, 09:39 PM
  #95
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Saw Subban in person again tonight, and he is everything we need on this team. If there's even a 1% chance of making him happen this offseason, Nill should look into it. Just the total package.
He almost cost Montreal with his defence last night. He is horrible in his own end.

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04-05-2014, 10:20 PM
  #96
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Kesler isn't worth the price we'd have to pay to acquire him. There are cheaper trade options out there than him. He's older, injury prone, a questionable locker room guy who's trying to whine his way out of Vancouver, and only signed for 2 more seasons. He's not another building block. If Dallas had a better defense I could maybe see it but if you're going to give up the farm and a good NHL player shouldn't we target a defender?

Unless Montreal just totally cheaps out they'll match any offer sheet and he'd be even more expensive in trade. Subban is practically off limits.

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04-05-2014, 10:24 PM
  #97
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He almost cost Montreal with his defence last night. He is horrible in his own end.
Wouldn't say that. He hasn't been as good defensively this year (and most of that is on Therrien, but that's a whole other issue), but he was put in a shutdown role in his first couple of years and absolutely nailed it. No reason to believe he won't come back to form (unless, again, Therrien).

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04-05-2014, 10:29 PM
  #98
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dont want kesler

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Old
04-06-2014, 12:40 AM
  #99
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Kesler isn't worth the price we'd have to pay to acquire him. There are cheaper trade options out there than him. He's older, injury prone, a questionable locker room guy who's trying to whine his way out of Vancouver, and only signed for 2 more seasons. He's not another building block. If Dallas had a better defense I could maybe see it but if you're going to give up the farm and a good NHL player shouldn't we target a defender?

Unless Montreal just totally cheaps out they'll match any offer sheet and he'd be even more expensive in trade. Subban is practically off limits.
Ryan Kesler is about as legit a 2nd line center as you can get.

He may be "older" if you're comparing him to Seguin or Benn or Nichushkin, but he's only 29. Heck, Joe Nieuwendyk was 29 and injury prone when we salvaged him off the scrap heap in Calgary. Not everyone has to be under 25. I wouldn't deal any potential studs for him and I certainly wouldn't include the likes of Dillon, but a mid-round pick and a decent prospect is worth it. I know I added Chiasson and said I'd do that. I'm questioning it a little but it's still not out of the question. Not all these mid-range guys have spots on this team. We're deep enough now we can afford that and it's not going to be detrimental.

Either way, you want someone of that caliber at 2C you're going to have to buck up whether it be assets or $$. If there are defensemen that valuable available then I'd explore that avenue for sure.


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04-06-2014, 01:16 AM
  #100
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I may be crazy, but I think I'd rather get rid of Chiasson than Faksa. And that's with leaning towards him topping out as a 3rd line center.

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