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Re-build the Flyers defense

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:22 PM
  #26
FLYERSFAN18
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Would like to see these pairings for a few games

Timonen-Coburn
MacDonald-Streit
Gus-Schenn

If those bottom two pairings play well then we would only have to upgrade the first pairing. Hopefully we can sign MacDonald for around 4.5 as I am not sure I really want him at 5 or more. Maybe then sign Niskanen for the top pairing. And Gus would likely be a cheap option on the 3rd pairing (but we know he won't get a chance because Berube loves Grossmann the turnover machine)

Coburn-Niskanen
MacDonald-Streit
Gus-Schenn

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:23 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I think a team that really needs help defensively would take Grossmann for that price. In a salary cap world of 69-71 million it's really not that much in terms of percentage.

Trades could be the way you rebuild this defense. It would have to be trades actually.

Streit is one guy who stays. He actually has played fairly well this year and we will need a veteran on the back like him if Kimmo walks.
They're not going to be able to trade their way out of this defense, at least not for any sort of decent return. With the kids all still a year or two out, they might just have to stay with what they've got until then.

I'm also hesitant to sign MacDonald to a long term deal as well. It's not that I don't like MacDonald as a player, it's that he's going to take a spot that could be filled by one of the kids in a couple years. Ideally, you only want to sign guys like MacDonald to 2-3 year deals because he's not a key part of the defense and a younger/cheaper/possibly better option from within the system could replace him eventually. The only defenseman that should be getting 5+ year deals are the top pairing guys that you can't go without.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:24 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't think anyone would be expecting a guy to immediately replace Coburn. I think we all know that whomever takes his roster spot would be a downgrade. But the question is how much of a downgrade and how much of an upgrade are we getting in return for Coburn (presumably in the forward department). If we deal Coburn for Eberle straight up, a deal I don't think happens but one of which I would be in favor, I think the upgrade of Eberle on offense would make the downgrade on defense manageable.

Even if we go with an unproven guy like Folin, Hagg, or Gus as Coburn's "replacement," Eberle's presence on offense I think is something that makes the downgrade something we can live with, and with Eberle there, it enables them to really focus more on obtaining better defense either via draft, trade, or free agency. You make the Eberle-Coburn swap and defense takes a hit next season. But what about after that? Morin and Hagg are up and coming, maybe this Folin guy works out. Now we have Eberle and a different "Coburn" a year or two from now.

In other words, I'd rather have Eberle on offense than Coburn on defense. Now, I think if Coburn is moved, someone else would be brought in to take those minutes, someone with experience. Not someone better or even as good, but there are UFAs out there with which I would be comfortable.
It's hard to find defensemen who can manage 20 minutes a night without completely blowing it. Coburn does it pretty regularly, and I'm not all for blowing up proven things when there's a lot more you could easily get rid of first.

On top of that, in this hypothetical scenario where Coburn nets you Eberle, you have nowhere for Eberle to play. Not to mention you're adding a ****ton of salary.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I think we're going to drop Grossmann, with or without Folin.

I think, unfortunately, that Gustafsson is done here as well, with or without Folin, as unfair as that may be.

I also think we make a huge push to move out Lecavalier and Streit even though nobody will take either at this point. Maybe if we hang onto some salary, they are movable.

Anyway...I think Timonen stays on one more year.
If Grossmann is moveable I think Lecavalier will be as well. Grossmann has been just as bad as Lecavalier. Heck, we know Montreal loves their French speaking players, maybe they will take him for a late round pick

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I think we're going to drop Grossmann, with or without Folin.

I think, unfortunately, that Gustafsson is done here as well, with or without Folin, as unfair as that may be.

I also think we make a huge push to move out Lecavalier and Streit even though nobody will take either at this point. Maybe if we hang onto some salary, they are movable.

Anyway...I think Timonen stays on one more year.
The Flyers made it pretty clear that they weren't sold of Gus being here longterm when they only signed him to that one year deal. It's a shame because I could see him moving on and becoming a pretty successful bottom three defenseman for someone. I think the final nail in the coffin was trading for MacDonald who's a pretty similar player.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:26 PM
  #31
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Right now, the only players you have under contract is:

Streit
Grossman
Schenn
Coburn

Grossman & Schenn are the same player, I can easily see one of them not being here.

Its possible that AMac will not resign for what the Flyers want and he will walk. Timonen as well could retire.

Giving Folin a spot promised to him isn't hard at all. I think if Timonen goes, there is absolutely no way Coburn goes, if Timonen returns, I think you could see Coburn & Grossman moved.

That'll leave (if Folin signs)

Timonen
Streit
Folin
Schenn

or

Coburn
Folin
Schenn
Streit

Leaving the two other spots for signings or a possible AMac return.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:28 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post

Niskanen - Fayne
MacDonald - Streit
Gus - Schenn

That also allows for someone like Mark Alt to start his NHL apprenticeship in the 7th spot and it means that we aren't rushing Gostisbehere, Morin or Hagg to the show. It might not be the 'sexy' defense people are looking for, but it's one that's more than capable. This is also a defense in which minutes can be distributed evenly and we aren't having to worry about playing our top four 20+ minutes per night.
Is your goal for the Flyers to draft McDavid, Hanifin or Eichel, because that defense should accomplish it. You have replaced the top two defensemen on the Flyers this year with worst players in Niskanen and Fayne. I wouldn't mind the flyers with any of those draft picks so I am all for it.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:33 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
It's hard to find defensemen who can manage 20 minutes a night without completely blowing it. Coburn does it pretty regularly, and I'm not all for blowing up proven things when there's a lot more you could easily get rid of first.
Oh absolutely. Which is why I said that I know it would be a downgrade. I still think you do it. And to be sure, I am not suggesting just trading Coburn for anything that walks by. I agree he should be kept, but if someone is offering up a guy like Eberle for Coburn, you do it.

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On top of that, in this hypothetical scenario where Coburn nets you Eberle, you have nowhere for Eberle to play. Not to mention you're adding a ****ton of salary.
You can find a place for Eberle to play. If he were on the team right now he would be tied with Simmer for second in points with one fewer game played than Simmer, and would immediately be the team's second best offensive threat. We can make room for him to play. Try him on Giroux's wing, try him on Vinny's wing, try him on Couturier's wing. I know people love Voracek, but I'd rather have Eberle in that spot. Some one can switch positions or hell, even be traded to make room. But I'd take Eberle's offense over anyone on this team not named Giroux.

As far as adding a "**** ton" of salary, I don't think $1.5 million more is a **** ton of salary, especially when giving it to a 23 year old that would be the team's second best offensive threat.

That being said, I don't actually think this deal gets done.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:41 PM
  #34
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You can't possibly pencil Folin in as a full time player next year (if they even sign him), let alone as a top four defenseman. The jump from NCAA to the NHL is huge, and not just because of the jump in talent. The schedule is nearly twice as long. Sustr started out the season in Tampa, but he was sent down at around the half way mark because he was already showing signs of being overwhelmed by the schedule.

Also, I understand that Eberle is great talent, but I'm not sold on his playing style. Very few guys can play the perimeter game that he plays and really make an impact on the team. He gets a lot of cheap points playing for a team that plays about as much defense as a beer league team.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:44 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh absolutely. Which is why I said that I know it would be a downgrade. I still think you do it. And to be sure, I am not suggesting just trading Coburn for anything that walks by. I agree he should be kept, but if someone is offering up a guy like Eberle for Coburn, you do it.
I'll think about it as long as Timonen is returning, but even then. And otherwise, no. I don't just "do it."

There's a reason why we are where we are and Edmonton is where Edmonton is. Guys like Coburn, a guy who can log 20 minutes of real defense, is the difference maker.

You seem all for turning us into Edmonton, and look at what being Edmonton got Edmonton.

That's why they want Coburn and exactly why I don't want to give up Coburn. Grossmann goes long before Coburn. Let MacDonald walk before Coburn. Separate the Schenn brothers (god forbid) before Coburn gets moved. I'm very serious about how stupid this all is. You can replace all those things with things you already have. You cannot replace Coburn with things you already have unless Morin is WAY ahead of schedule or Myers falls into our laps.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You can find a place for Eberle to play. If he were on the team right now he would be tied with Simmer for second in points with one fewer game played than Simmer, and would immediately be the team's second best offensive threat.
Team's second best offensive threat? Debatable when it comes to Voracek. And I certainly don't value Eberle over the kinds of things Simmonds does. Hartnell is a no-go for locker room reasons. Read is necessary on the defensive side of things, and Raffl as bang-for-your-buck next to Read and Couturier has become essential.

The only man that should be out if Eberle is in would be Lecavalier, who has a NMC. On top of that, I'm not sure I want another one-dimensional scoring winger.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
We can make room for him to play. Try him on Giroux's wing, try him on Vinny's wing, try him on Couturier's wing. I know people love Voracek, but I'd rather have Eberle in that spot. Some one can switch positions or hell, even be traded to make room. But I'd take Eberle's offense over anyone on this team not named Giroux.
It's Schenn's wing. Everyone's going to have to get over that hump. If you want to move both Schenn's fine, but be sure you're ready for Lecavalier to be your 3rd line center. Unless of course, you move him too and let Laughton have his luck.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
As far as adding a "**** ton" of salary, I don't think $1.5 million more is a **** ton of salary, especially when giving it to a 23 year old that would be the team's second best offensive threat.

That being said, I don't actually think this deal gets done.
1.50m is a ****ton of salary when we're definitely going to be over with Timonen, MacDonald, and BSchenn all inked.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:46 PM
  #36
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Streit-Coburn
MacDonald-Schenn
Timonen/Gustafsson/Hagg/Morin/Gostisbehere-Folin
Alt/Gustafsson/Random Gill/Gervais/Lilja/O'Donnell signing as 7th d-man

I don't think Timonen's done after this year. But we can't afford to pay him 6+ million anymore. Ship Grossmann out resign Kimmo around 3 or 4 per for 1 year, sign Folin, give Kimmo 3rd pairing minutes with PP and PK time. Re-up MacDonald 4.25-4.75 per.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:48 PM
  #37
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If Timonen is coming back he needs to take a pay cut. If he's being forced to take a pay cut he may just go back to Europe and play. I'm not sure what his family situation is or where his true home is, but I could see him going back to Europe if he doesn't get paid a premium here.

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03-25-2014, 01:04 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
I'll think about it as long as Timonen is returning, but even then. And otherwise, no. I don't just "do it."

There's a reason why we are where we are and Edmonton is where Edmonton is. Guys like Coburn, a guy who can log 20 minutes of real defense, is the difference maker.
Sure, Coburn absolutely makes a difference. I am not arguing there at all. I'm not knocking Coburn. I'm not saying let's put Coburn up on the block and get what we can. I'm saying if Edmonton wants to trade a young star to us for Coburn, you do it. Coburn can be replaced. Maybe not necessarily next season, but he can be replaced. Getting a guy like Eberle is harder than getting a guy like Coburn. Once again I will preface that by saying I am not saying that next season we will have a guy as good or better than Coburn, but there are guys I would be perfectly comfortable with out there taking Coburn's minutes if Jordan Eberle is brought back. The downgrade on defense from Coburn to X is made less noticeable in the upgrade in the offense that Eberle would bring.

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You seem all for turning us into Edmonton, and look at what being Edmonton got Edmonton.
That's true. I am definitely in favor of turning this team into Edmonton because I am interested in obtaining a 23 year old player with excellent offensive upside who has already shown he can play at a very high level in the NHL in favor of keeping a solid defenseman. Go Oilers!

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That's why they want Coburn and exactly why I don't want to give up Coburn. Grossmann goes long before Coburn. Let MacDonald walk before Coburn. Separate the Schenn brothers (god forbid) before Coburn gets moved. I'm very serious about how stupid this all is. You can replace all those things with things you already have. You cannot replace Coburn with things you already have unless Morin is WAY ahead of schedule or Myers falls into our laps.
I agree with all of that. I'd be happy to trade someone else to get a guy like Eberle. No arguments here. And as I said, I would keep Coburn unless there is a deal involving Eberle or someone of that ilk. You are acting as though I am advocating just dumping Coburn for some reason, despite the fact that I have made it abundantly clear that I am not talking about that (unless trading Coburn for Eberle is somehow "dumping" him, in which case, I would vehemently disagree).

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Team's second best offensive threat? Debatable when it comes to Voracek. And I certainly don't value Eberle over the kinds of things Simmonds does. Hartnell is a no-go for locker room reasons. Read is necessary on the defensive side of things, and Raffl as bang-for-your-buck next to Read and Couturier has become essential.
Really? You think Voracek is a better offensive threat than Eberle? Can I ask why? Eberle has 70 or so less points in 200+ less games and is a year younger. Even if you are going to say it is because he gets better minutes or has better linemates or something, I'm not sure how that would make up for all those extra points Eberle appears to be scoring, especially given that he is playing on one of the worst teams since he's been drafted (and since Voracek has been playing regularly with Giroux for at least the last two seasons).

I agree that he doesn't bring the other aspects of the game that the Simmonds, Couturier's, Read's of the world bring, but if you are going to actually tell me you think Voracek is a better offensive threat than Eberle, I really don't know what to tell you other than I believe you need to take off the homer glasses.

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The only man that should be out if Eberle is in would be Lecavalier, who has a NMC. On top of that, I'm not sure I want another one-dimensional scoring winger.
It's all relative. It depends on who would be coming back. I'd prefer not to trade a couple players, but someone like Laughton shows he can play an effective role (or someone else steps up), that makes someone else expendable, maybe even to replace Coburn (gasp!).

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It's Schenn's wing. Everyone's going to have to get over that hump. If you want to move both Schenn's fine, but be sure you're ready for Lecavalier to be your 3rd line center. Unless of course, you move him too and let Laughton have his luck.
Again, it's all relative at this point who would be moved. I don't know who would be moved, but if Jordan Eberle is coming back, I'd figure it out.



Quote:
1.50m is a ****ton of salary when we're definitely going to be over with Timonen, MacDonald, and BSchenn all inked.
Time will tell. Again, if Eberle is coming back, you figure something out.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:07 PM
  #39
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I think 4.5 million would be about right for Timonen. That would be what I would want to pay MacDonald as well.

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03-25-2014, 01:10 PM
  #40
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Completely rebuilding our blue line is a tall order. Like it's been said many times before, getting any big pieces back would require us gutting the team, and Homer likes this team!

I could see us dumping Grossmann, definitely. If we land Folin, he'd probably fill that slot. And now it sounds like Timonen is going to come back for one more year, so we'd have:

Timonen / Coburn
L Schenn / MacDonald
Folin / Streit

Moving Coburn is a bad idea. We have nobody else that can play his minutes, and I doubt we can find anybody that can in FA either. Teams don't just give up players like that.

It also sounds like they're trying to resign MacDonald.

So that leaves either L Schenn, or Streit open for trade, if they're trying to move something. Out of those two I'd imagine it's much more likely they'd move Shenn. Maybe a package deal of both Schenns for something? I don't know.

Like I said, it's a tall order. There aren't many teams in the league looking to give up defensemen. If a big name hits the market, I'm sure Homer would be the first guy on it, but I doubt there's really anybody available.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:11 PM
  #41
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See, my first instinct upon getting Eberle for Coburn would be to immediately flip Eberle or Voracek with some added incentive not named Couturier to make a grab at Weber because without Coburn, we'd need a Weber.




Short of Eberle for Coburn, which I don't think would happen because Edmonton would say, "Here, have a Gagner." (Ugh!), we would probably look to move Streit or Lecavalier this offseason on top of Grossmann.

Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
xxxxx - Schenn - Simmonds
Raffl - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - xxxxx - McGinn

Timonen - Coburn
MacDonald - Schenn
Gustafsson - xxxxx

Mason
xxxxx

Is manageable to play with. Even if you only move one of Lecavalier or Striet, you open things up a bit. I'd rather move Streit and keep Lecavalier, but that's just me.

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03-25-2014, 01:19 PM
  #42
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I don't want to get rid of Coburn. he is so important to this team it's insane.

Luke has played well the past two games. If the flyers think he can play top 4 minutes ( meaning 18 toi, and 2nd most pk minuts) then I am down to keep him since he is already signed long term. That makes Grossman Expendable. I like grossman at the 3rd pairing with streit. That means we need a partner for Coburn if Kimmo retires.


Coburn X
Mac Schenn
Streit Grossman

Now if mac leves and Kimmo retires we are in a tight spot there.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:26 PM
  #43
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there are few guarantees with the Flyers but one thing I will guarantee. they will not trade a veteran even if he sucks to give a college free agent a spot. even if he is a better option.
we have that scenario right now this season and where is that college FA. in the pressbox eating popcorn.

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03-25-2014, 01:27 PM
  #44
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I don't want to get rid of Coburn. he is so important to this team it's insane.

Luke has played well the past two games. If the flyers think he can play top 4 minutes ( meaning 18 toi, and 2nd most pk minuts) then I am down to keep him since he is already signed long term. That makes Grossman Expendable. I like grossman at the 3rd pairing with streit. That means we need a partner for Coburn if Kimmo retires.


Coburn X
Mac Schenn
Streit Grossman

Now if mac leves and Kimmo retires we are in a tight spot there.
Let's examine a worst-case scenario for this...

Streit - Coburn
Gustafsson - Schenn
xxxxx - Grossmann

I don't know, but I'd be okay with this, but we would miss Timonen a lot. It's certainly not ideal, but I'm confident in at least Coburn as well as a Gustafsson - Schenn pairing.

We still need to cement something. If I'm Holmgren, I'm already chatting up Timonen's agent.

Ironically, it's still a much better first pairing than Niskanen - Fayne.

Maybe if you want Niskanen and Fayne that much, you go...

Streit - Coburn
Niskanen/MacDonald - Schenn
Gustafsson - Fayne

At that point you try to get rid of Streit if Timonen stays.

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03-25-2014, 01:28 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
See, my first instinct upon getting Eberle for Coburn would be to immediately flip Eberle or Voracek with some added incentive not named Couturier to make a grab at Weber because without Coburn, we'd need a Weber.
I know Coburn is good, but you are being a bit over the top here. Here are some free agents available this offseason (assuming they aren't re-signed):

Kyle Quincey
Rostislav Klesla
Matt Greene
Matt Niskanen
Nikita Nikitin
Ron Hainsey
Anton Stralman

Now, just so we are clear, I am not saying that these guys are as good or better than Coburn. BUT, I would take Eberle + one of them over Coburn. Now, obviously there are issues in terms of signing these guys, as I don't know what they are looking for in terms of contracts, but again, in this hypothetical situation, one of them would be my backup plan to Coburn. I know, I know, NONE OF THOSE GUYS WILL FILL THE MINUTES COBURN PLAYS. I get it, these guys are not as good as Coburn. If given the choice between Coburn and any of these guys, I'd probably take Cobrun too. But if given the choice between Coburn and Eberle + one of these guys, you are crazy if you take Coburn.

Would another move have to be made to fit one of these guys under the cap? Probably. Maybe deal Grossmann for some picks and roll with Gus out there on your bottom pair with Schenn, and grab Folin, Hagg, Alt, or other young guy to fill in the last defenseman spot. Perhaps Kimmo comes back at a reduced rate. I really don't know what he's looking for if he's coming back.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:30 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I think we're going to drop Grossmann, with or without Folin.

I think, unfortunately, that Gustafsson is done here as well, with or without Folin, as unfair as that may be.

I also think we make a huge push to move out Lecavalier and Streit even though nobody will take either at this point. Maybe if we hang onto some salary, they are movable.

Anyway...I think Timonen stays on one more year.
Streit is here to stay. He's had a good season despite being anchored with Grossmann.

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03-25-2014, 01:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I know Coburn is good, but you are being a bit over the top here. Here are some free agents available this offseason (assuming they aren't re-signed):

Kyle Quincey
Rostislav Klesla
Matt Greene
Matt Niskanen
Nikita Nikitin
Ron Hainsey
Anton Stralman

Now, just so we are clear, I am not saying that these guys are as good or better than Coburn. BUT, I would take Eberle + one of them over Coburn. Now, obviously there are issues in terms of signing these guys, as I don't know what they are looking for in terms of contracts, but again, in this hypothetical situation, one of them would be my backup plan to Coburn. I know, I know, NONE OF THOSE GUYS WILL FILL THE MINUTES COBURN PLAYS. I get it, these guys are not as good as Coburn. If given the choice between Coburn and any of these guys, I'd probably take Cobrun too. But if given the choice between Coburn and Eberle + one of these guys, you are crazy if you take Coburn.

Would another move have to be made to fit one of these guys under the cap? Probably. Maybe deal Grossmann for some picks and roll with Gus out there on your bottom pair with Schenn, and grab Folin, Hagg, Alt, or other young guy to fill in the last defenseman spot. Perhaps Kimmo comes back at a reduced rate. I really don't know what he's looking for if he's coming back.
Eberle with a downgrade to Coburn would make them a worse team overall. It's not even close.

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03-25-2014, 01:32 PM
  #48
CS
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I know Coburn is good, but you are being a bit over the top here. Here are some free agents available this offseason (assuming they aren't re-signed):

Kyle Quincey
Rostislav Klesla
Matt Greene
Matt Niskanen
Nikita Nikitin
Ron Hainsey
Anton Stralman
It's early. Defensemen get eaten up by their own teams like greedy kids attacking their own Twix bars on Halloween. Only the candy corn makes it to FA.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Eberle with a downgrade to Coburn would make them a worse team overall. It's not even close.
Agreed. Like I said. That's the kind of move that makes us more similar to the Oilers than not. I'd like to stay away from becoming more offensively gifted despite the defense. Forsaking the defense in search of more, unneeded offense, is backwards regardless of how good Eberle is. We're not acquiring Jonathan Toews here. Let's keep things in perspective.

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03-25-2014, 01:36 PM
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Streit is here to stay. He's had a good season despite being anchored with Grossmann.
I think Streit and Lecavalier have both been serviceable honestly. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus.

However, if you want MacDonald here, are you expecting to pair him with Streit?

Timonen - Coburn
Streit - MacDonald
Gustafsson - Schenn

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03-25-2014, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Eberle with a downgrade to Coburn would make them a worse team overall. It's not even close.
If he was a solid two-way guy I could possibly understand going after him but Eberle doesn't even play a lick of defense. He's good player but not a fit for this team right now.

The whole "we need a goal scorer to play with Giroux" thing is overhyped in my opinion. He's doing fine with out one right now, no need to mess up the structure of your team to make that happen.

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