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Old
03-25-2014, 12:41 PM
  #51
Tripod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I don't want to get rid of Coburn. he is so important to this team it's insane.

Luke has played well the past two games. If the flyers think he can play top 4 minutes ( meaning 18 toi, and 2nd most pk minuts) then I am down to keep him since he is already signed long term. That makes Grossman Expendable. I like grossman at the 3rd pairing with streit. That means we need a partner for Coburn if Kimmo retires.


Coburn X
Mac Schenn
Streit Grossman

Now if mac leves and Kimmo retires we are in a tight spot there.
I actually agree with you.

We all know how hard it is to get a REAL #1. And yet people are quick to trade Coburn who is our only #2.

If we cannot have a real top pairing who log a ton of minutes(like Suter/Weber, etc..) the the next best thing is to have 3 pairings that can all play. Or, for the sake of arguement, have 5 top 4 guys.

Try and sign MacD. He can log top pairing minutes if needed, but him and Schenn look like they can be a good 2nd pairing going forward.

Try and re-sign Kimmo for 1 last kick at the can...BUT it HAS to be at a big paycut..$4 mill.

The only obvious trade is Grossmann. His $ can go to a bottom pairing guy.

We are currently set up that Coburn, Schenn and Grossmann all are UFA's in 2 years which should be when the kids are ready. Try and bridge the gap until then with who we have today and with a smart add on if needed.

If Kimmo leaves...then look to sign MacD and just run with:

MacD Coburn
Grossmann Streit
Gus Schenn

and of course add Folin if possible for free.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:43 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Eberle with a downgrade to Coburn would make them a worse team overall. It's not even close.
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
It's early. Defensemen get eaten up by their own teams like greedy kids attacking their own Twix bars on Halloween. Only the candy corn makes it to FA.



Agreed. Like I said. That's the kind of move that makes us more similar to the Oilers than not. I'd like to stay away from becoming more offensively gifted despite the defense. Forsaking the defense in search of more, unneeded offense, is backwards regardless of how good Eberle is. We're not acquiring Jonathan Toews here. Let's keep things in perspective.
You guys are either greatly overrating Coburn or greatly underrating Eberle. I know that Coburn is pretty much this team's best defender now that Kimo is getting old. No argument here. But in what world do we scoff at the idea of getting a 23 year old with very real, very attainable, PPG potential, who has already had a 30+ goal season? I know that we have a tendency to overvalue our own players, but good grief. Just out of curiosity, if you wouldn't trade Coburn for Eberle, is there anyone for whom you would trade Coburn that was a forward?

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I think Streit and Lecavalier have both been serviceable honestly. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus.

However, if you want MacDonald here, are you expecting to pair him with Streit?

Timonen - Coburn
Streit - MacDonald
Gustafsson - Schenn
Streit yes. Lecavalier absolutely not. Right now he is worth at best half his current cap hit. Maybe if he goes somewhere else and plays center he could regain some of his form. But right now Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Raffl and probably Laughton are better centers than him. He needs to go

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:46 PM
  #54
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I wonder what Chicago will do this off season and going forward. They have a ton of cap space being eaten up already and might look to trade some players. Just wondering who?

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03-25-2014, 12:47 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You guys are either greatly overrating Coburn or greatly underrating Eberle. I know that Coburn is pretty much this team's best defender now that Kimo is getting old. No argument here. But in what world do we scoff at the idea of getting a 23 year old with very real, very attainable, PPG potential, who has already had a 30+ goal season? I know that we have a tendency to overvalue our own players, but good grief. Just out of curiosity, if you wouldn't trade Coburn for Eberle, is there anyone for whom you would trade Coburn that was a forward?
Couturier.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:47 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Couturier.
Anyone not on the Flyers?

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:48 PM
  #57
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Crazy Idea. Draft is in Philly this year. Flyers are rumored to remake their blueline.

Coburn plus first for oilers first. That either gets us ekblad or near ekblad. If we are 3 we just add till we get to 2.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You guys are either greatly overrating Coburn or greatly underrating Eberle. I know that Coburn is pretty much this team's best defender now that Kimo is getting old. No argument here. But in what world do we scoff at the idea of getting a 23 year old with very real, very attainable, PPG potential, who has already had a 30+ goal season? I know that we have a tendency to overvalue our own players, but good grief. Just out of curiosity, if you wouldn't trade Coburn for Eberle, is there anyone for whom you would trade Coburn that was a forward?
The offense doesn't need Eberle to be successful though. They've been a powerhouse offense for the last three years of the Giroux era, and they're going to keep getting better with the development of Couturier and Schenn. Of course in vacumn, Eberle is a better player than Coburn. But in real life, substituting Eberle and a downgrade to Coburn for Coburn doesn't get this team closer to the ultimate goal of winning the Stanley Cup. There's also no guarantee that you could even replace Coburn if you make that trade. Free agency is a toss up between overpaying a guy to play for you, or hoping the he really just wants to be a Flyer.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:48 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Streit yes. Lecavalier absolutely not. Right now he is worth at best half his current cap hit. Maybe if he goes somewhere else and plays center he could regain some of his form. But right now Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, Raffl and probably Laughton are better centers than him. He needs to go
If we picked up 50 percent of his cap hit and send him to Tampa we could actually get an asset from an asset rich team.

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03-25-2014, 12:49 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Anyone not on the Flyers?
Toews. Bergeron. There's a few. Unfortunately most of them are defensive centers...since you know...we need to be better defensively.

Unfortunately, moving Coburn for any of these sets off a crazy causality train that leaves us in need of trading a forward for defensive help...

So we're back to square one anyway.

Moving Coburn for a forward makes no sense because you need to replace him. Moving Coburn for a defenseman of his ilk or lesser makes no sense because you already have him.

The only move involving Coburn that makes sense is a package upgrade.

We're not talking vacuum values here. We never do on the Flyers' board. I don't care if Eberle >> Coburn. All our values are relative. This isn't the main boards where **** just can fly because we can pretend to throw it.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Crazy Idea. Draft is in Philly this year. Flyers are rumored to remake their blueline.

Coburn plus first for oilers first. That either gets us ekblad or near ekblad. If we are 3 we just add till we get to 2.
No it doesn't

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03-25-2014, 12:54 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
If we picked up 50 percent of his cap hit and send him to Tampa we could actually get an asset from an asset rich team.
We should trade him for whatever we can get as long as we don't retain salary. Hell, I would trade him along with a 5th or 6th round pick for no return just to get rid of that contract. I don't think he is as bad as he has played but we still have better options than him. But lets not make this a Lecavalier thread.

I wish we could see Gus replace Grossmann for at least a few games. I think could be a good 5th defenseman for us right now and could be a decent #4 for a team in the future

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:54 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
If we picked up 50 percent of his cap hit and send him to Tampa we could actually get an asset from an asset rich team.
It's not a bad idea, but think of it this way...

You trade Lecavalier for half his cap hit back to Tampa for assets. Now you need to replace Lecavalier's value to our LW lineup with someone half his monetary value at realistically the same production for it to be a win for us on the trade sheet.

Moving Lecavalier makes very little sense at this point unless you're moving his money...all of it.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:55 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Crazy Idea. Draft is in Philly this year. Flyers are rumored to remake their blueline.

Coburn plus first for oilers first. That either gets us ekblad or near ekblad. If we are 3 we just add till we get to 2.
Oiler's want Ekblad more than they want Coburn + 1st. No dice.

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Old
03-25-2014, 12:56 PM
  #65
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I honestly think if the Flyers are trading assets like those, we aren't going to be targeting a prospect. It would be a NHL player.

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03-25-2014, 12:57 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Oiler's want Ekblad more than they want Coburn + 1st. No dice.
I wouldn't do it. Logic says no. However If they have the 3rd pick I could see it happening. COburn could help that team out more than any other player in the draft right away sans Ekblad.

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03-25-2014, 12:58 PM
  #67
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I wouldn't do it. Logic says no. However If they have the 3rd pick I could see it happening. COburn could help that team out more than any other player in the draft right away sans Ekblad.
Would you move Coburn for the 3rd overall pick in a week draft knowing you're getting a forward?

You might as well move Coburn for Eberle at that point to flip him or Voracek for something shiny on the blueline. I'm sure Nashville would LOVE to get Eberle down there.

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03-25-2014, 12:59 PM
  #68
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i think with folin's team being a win away from the final four which is philly will only help our cause to signing him. Hopefully they get there. He will see how great the facility is etc.

Hoping and assuming that happens I think we move grossmann out. I think luke only gets traded as part of a larger deal to get something better, like moving up in the draft. we are not going to unload him for a 2nd or something considering what homer gave up for him. With any holes we sign FA or give ghost Morin a shot. Mac D is signed for sure as well.

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03-25-2014, 01:01 PM
  #69
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i think with folin's team being a win away from the final four which is philly will only help our cause to signing him. Hopefully they get there. He will see how great the facility is etc.

Hoping and assuming that happens I think we move grossmann out. I think luke only gets traded as part of a larger deal to get something better, like moving up in the draft. we are not going to unload him for a 2nd or something considering what homer gave up for him. With any holes we sign FA or give ghost Morin a shot. Mac D is signed for sure as well.
If you're not giving Gus a shot, you're not giving Ghost a shot at this point. That's just a simple fact.

Morin? Questionable. Just how good is he right now? Could he replace Grossmann in your lineup?

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03-25-2014, 01:10 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Would you move Coburn for the 3rd overall pick in a week draft knowing you're getting a forward?

You might as well move Coburn for Eberle at that point to flip him or Voracek for something shiny on the blueline. I'm sure Nashville would LOVE to get Eberle down there.
you didn't read my earlier post. Get the 3rd, now you have apiece to get ekblad.

Also I think you are overestimating eberle. He is another 1 dimentional winger. Those guys don't win you championships.

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03-25-2014, 01:11 PM
  #71
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If you're not giving Gus a shot, you're not giving Ghost a shot at this point. That's just a simple fact.

Morin? Questionable. Just how good is he right now? Could he replace Grossmann in your lineup?
Its blatantly obvious that Gus is looked down on in the organization. Thats just a reality check there, I want him in personally. Morin has a shot, again given what management is thinking not all of us here. He has made improvements etc etc could be seen as a good time to get him in. Ghost winning all kinds of awards and poss a HB makes him get some consideration from the management as well. Homer has said over and over again he wants to make the D better since pronger went down. One would think there will be some moving parts instead of status quo

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03-25-2014, 01:15 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
Toews. Bergeron. There's a few. Unfortunately most of them are defensive centers...since you know...we need to be better defensively.

Unfortunately, moving Coburn for any of these sets off a crazy causality train that leaves us in need of trading a forward for defensive help...

So we're back to square one anyway.

Moving Coburn for a forward makes no sense because you need to replace him. Moving Coburn for a defenseman of his ilk or lesser makes no sense because you already have him.

The only move involving Coburn that makes sense is a package upgrade.
I guess we just have different views on Coburn. He's good, no doubt. Our best defender considering Kimmo's age, no doubt. But he's replaceable. Ron Hainsey is 20 minute per night guy. Is he as good as Coburn? No. Is the difference between Hainsey and Coburn so detrimental to this team that they are lost? No. Of course, there is issue regarding whether or not he can be had, but he is not the only player out there who could play the 20 minute+ role. Again, would those guys play it as well as Coburn, no. But is it going to be like putting a pylon out there? No.

Quote:
We're not talking vacuum values here. We never do on the Flyers' board. I don't care if Eberle >> Coburn. All our values are relative. This isn't the main boards where **** just can fly because we can pretend to throw it.
Ok, good point.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
The offense doesn't need Eberle to be successful though. They've been a powerhouse offense for the last three years of the Giroux era, and they're going to keep getting better with the development of Couturier and Schenn. Of course in vacumn, Eberle is a better player than Coburn. But in real life, substituting Eberle and a downgrade to Coburn for Coburn doesn't get this team closer to the ultimate goal of winning the Stanley Cup. There's also no guarantee that you could even replace Coburn if you make that trade. Free agency is a toss up between overpaying a guy to play for you, or hoping the he really just wants to be a Flyer.
I think it you might want to look into that. It seems like they haven't been an offensive powerhouse in the last three years. Three years ago they were int he top three. Since then I don't believe they have been in the top ten, this season included. I admit, there is certainly some risk involved, however in getting a 23 year old player with PPG potential who has already had a 30+ goal season, I'll risk losing Coburn.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:20 PM
  #73
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we are a fickle group.

Who is Folin... where have I been?

edit:
Why not have 3 swedes in the D...

Coburn - Folin
Striet - Grossmann
Gus - Schenn

Kimmo walks.
Amac walks.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:23 PM
  #74
flyershockey
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I think it you might want to look into that. It seems like they haven't been an offensive powerhouse in the last three years. Three years ago they were int he top three. Since then I don't believe they have been in the top ten, this season included. I admit, there is certainly some risk involved, however in getting a 23 year old player with PPG potential who has already had a 30+ goal season, I'll risk losing Coburn.
2011-2012 - 2nd in G/G
2012-2013 - 9th in G/G (tough to gauge because a lot of team stats were skewed because of the shortened schedule)
2013-2014 - 9th G/G (getting higher on the list with every passing week after they started out so poorly)

Why would we want to downgrade our defense just to add another top six forward to a team with 8 or 9 of them?

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:24 PM
  #75
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we are a fickle group.

Who is Folin... where have I been?
Christian Folin, Swedish d-man who plays for UMass-Lowell and is regarded by many as the most desirable college-free agent available this year. Big, good skater, I think more a defensive type in the NHL but brings some offense as well.

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