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Something I don't understand

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Old
08-16-2005, 10:09 AM
  #1
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Something I don't understand

Why do all of these people, who are obviously jealous of what the flyers have done, insist on comparing the flyers current roster with the 03-04 roster and call the team overrated. Last time I checked the 05-06 flyers are not going to be playing the 03-04 flyers. Why won't these people compare our roster to the other teams in the league?

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08-16-2005, 10:24 AM
  #2
Mojopin
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Because that would take rational thinking. People in a jealous rage do not think rationally.

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08-16-2005, 11:28 AM
  #3
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Well, one thing I do notice is that if you had to rank the guys most important to our season last year, it'd go something like:

1. Mark Recchi
2. Keith Primeau
3. Jeremy Roenick
4. Robert Esche

Having two of our 4 most important guys gone, and Leclair who would not be far behind on that list, we definitely have some losses. Is our d-core better than it was before? Absolutely. Do we have what might be the best group of centers in the NHL? Probably. But we still lost a lot of the guys that made the Flyers the Atlantic division winner and a team one win away from the SCF.

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08-16-2005, 11:31 AM
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Minus Roenick and Recchi and add a healthy Forsberg, makes up the difference IMO. I so like this years line-up compared to last. Giving the rookies a true chance is going to make this team a hell of alot more exciting and will only help their development.

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08-16-2005, 11:33 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16
Minus Roenick and Recchi and add a healthy Forsberg, makes up the difference IMO. I so like this years line-up compared to last. Giving the rookies a true chance is going to make this team a hell of alot more exciting and will only help their development.
But does Forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, LeClair and Amonte?

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08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
But does Forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, LeClair and Amonte?
Mike Richards alone adds up to Amonte. Tony was a one dimensional offensive player who could only play on a scoring line. Richards can play on the power-play unit, take a faceoff on the penalty-kill, center a checking line, or play on a scoring line.

I'd take this years team heads and tails above last years just for the age difference alone. Not to mention the improvement on special teams that we could be looking at.

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08-16-2005, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
But does Forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, LeClair and Amonte?
Replace them with Forsberg,Carter, Richards, Knuble, Stevenson and it is = or better.Possibly Umberger and who knows what Sharpe can do with a full year if he gets a chance.
The Flyers IMO won't counting on Richards for scoring as much as Carter. Carter will see more ice time off the bat and the play will dictate after that. If some of these guys struggle, they will at times, goals will be hard to come by.

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08-16-2005, 12:12 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
But does Forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, LeClair and Amonte?
doesn't friggin have to. no team is going to have the depth of talent that we saw the last few years of the NHL prior to the lockout... the entire purpose of the new CBA is to disperse the talent around the league and thus weaken the top 10 teams and strengthen the 10 bottom teams (a.k.a. your pens).

the question isn't, "but does forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, Leclair, and Amonte?" who the hell cares if it does? we aren't playing two years ago. we aren't matching up against the same teams we were two years ago. we're matching up against a bunch of completely different teams that have been constructed under the new CBA and we have to look at how we match-up against them now.

for example... how do we match-up against the pens?

scoring - pens may have a bit more punch here...
defense - we have a TON more punch here...
coaching -

thus, i'm pretty confident we can take down the pens.

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08-16-2005, 12:13 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester

scoring - pens may have a bit more punch here...
To be honest, without Malkin and Morozov, they probably don't.

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08-16-2005, 12:15 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeySteve
Well, one thing I do notice is that if you had to rank the guys most important to our season last year, it'd go something like:

1. Mark Recchi
2. Keith Primeau
3. Jeremy Roenick
4. Robert Esche

Having two of our 4 most important guys gone, and Leclair who would not be far behind on that list, we definitely have some losses. Is our d-core better than it was before? Absolutely. Do we have what might be the best group of centers in the NHL? Probably. But we still lost a lot of the guys that made the Flyers the Atlantic division winner and a team one win away from the SCF.

I would definitely argue that Mark Recchi was not one of the top 4 most important members of the team that year - most certainly not #1.

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08-16-2005, 12:22 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
To be honest, without Malkin and Morozov, they probably don't.
i'm not sure you're appreciating the clip that PP is going to operate at when everyone is healthy... granted Mario's prolly got 60 games in him max.

Mario - Crosby - Palffy/Recchi
Recchi/Tarnstrom - Gonchar

40% when Mario is playing... and i'm not even trying to exaggerate.

i love our squad, but the Pens -- if they stay healthy -- are a better overall offensive team on paper right now... if Carter, Radio, Richards, and Sharp really step it up this season... or if Preems/Kapanen regain form of a few years ago, then maybe we are on the same level, but as of now i think you have to give them the nod offensively.

not that we are going to be an awful offensive team, i think middle of the pack.

we will, however, be one of the best defensive teams in the league... while the Pens are going to be one of the absolute worst defensive teams in the league. the +/-'s on that team are going to be humorous given the amount of offense they are going to generate on the PP.

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Old
08-16-2005, 12:23 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitkanenPower
I would definitely argue that Mark Recchi was not one of the top 4 most important members of the team that year - most certainly not #1.
1. Primeau
2. Esche
3. Johnsson - especially when everyone went down.
4. Handzus - kept it together when Preems/Roenick went down.

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08-16-2005, 12:26 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
1. Primeau
2. Esche
3. Johnsson - especially when everyone went down.
4. Handzus - kept it together when Preems/Roenick went down.
I can definitely go with that, with adding

4a. Jeremy Roenick

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08-16-2005, 12:26 PM
  #14
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Stolen from a thread on the Penguins board:

Lemieux / Crosby / Palffy
Malone / Kraft / Recchi
LeClair / Beech / Koltsov
Roy / Pirjeta / Armstrong

I don't see how they have any real advantage in goal scoring over the Flyers, other than their top line. Forsberg, Gagne, and Carter will be able to be one of the best in the league, but the Pens is likely going to be better. I don't see them having any other advantages offensively.

Malone - Kraft - Recchi; doesn't exactly strike fear in to me. Nor do their other two lines. LeClair is done, Beech is unproven at the NHL level, and Koltsov has 9 career goals. In fact, the only line I would really be worried about offensively is their first line.

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08-16-2005, 12:35 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Stolen from a thread on the Penguins board:

Lemieux / Crosby / Palffy
Malone / Kraft / Recchi
LeClair / Beech / Koltsov
Roy / Pirjeta / Armstrong

I don't see how they have any real advantage in goal scoring over the Flyers, other than their top line. Forsberg, Gagne, and Carter will be able to be one of the best in the league, but the Pens is likely going to be better. I don't see them having any other advantages offensively.

Malone - Kraft - Recchi; doesn't exactly strike fear in to me. Nor do their other two lines. In fact, the only line I would really be worried about offensively is their first line.
Lemieux playing on a PP unit with 4 stationary objects he can bounce a puck off of operates at about 10%. they will have the best PP unit in the league when Mario is healthy, and with the combo of Gonchar, Recchi, Tarnstrom, and Crosby they won't be too shabby without him on the PP.

we MAY be a better 5-on-5 offensive team than them, but they will make up for that with their PP play... now the opposite side of that is just looking at that team and their d-corp... they are also going to get lit-up SH.

points on paper (not their effectiveness in an actual game):
Lemieux / Crosby / Palffy v. Gagne/Forsberg/Carter
Lemieux > Gagne, Crosby < Forsberg, Palffy > Carter

Malone / Kraft / Recchi v. Knuble / Handzus / Radio
Malone == Knuble, Kraft < Handzus, Recchi > Radio

LeClair / Beech / Koltsov v. Kapanen / Primeau / Sharp
LeClair > Kapanen, Beech > Primeau, Koltsov ?? Sharp

Roy / Pirjeta / Armstrong v. Brashear / Richards / Stevenson
Roy < Brashear, Pirjeta < Richards, Armstrong ?? Stevenson

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08-16-2005, 12:38 PM
  #16
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I wasn't really talking about the PP. That may put them over the top offensively, but 5-on-5 the Flyers are better. The Flyers power play won't be too shabby, either.

And I seriously cannot make heads or tails of your grid thingy there.

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Old
08-16-2005, 12:40 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
I wasn't really talking about the PP. That may put them over the top offensively, but 5-on-5 the Flyers are better. The Flyers power play won't be too shabby, either.

And I seriously cannot make heads or tails of your grid thingy there.
how many points i would expect each player to have... and PP very much matters in the offensive pop of a team, doesn't matter where you get the goals... they all end up on the scoreboard.

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08-16-2005, 12:42 PM
  #18
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If Gagne has a breakout year (which is what I think will happen if he plays with Forsberg on the top line), then, to me, thats like getting another off-season acquisition right there.

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08-16-2005, 12:43 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
how many points i would expect each player to have... and PP very much matters in the offensive pop of a team, doesn't matter where you get the goals... they all end up on the scoreboard.
If you'd like to point out where I said they didn't matter, that would be great.

But five on five, the Flyers are better. Which is what I said before.

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08-16-2005, 12:45 PM
  #20
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LeClair / Beech / Koltsov v. Kapanen / Primeau / Sharp
LeClair > Kapanen, Beech > Primeau, Koltsov ?? Sharp

n[/B][/QUOTE]

Kappenen is the better all round player than Leclaire and Beech is in no way, shape or form greater than ,= to or even in the same league as Primeau, any credibility you had just went out the window with that statement. Very absurd

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08-16-2005, 12:45 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
If you'd like to point out where I said they didn't matter, that would be great.

But five on five, the Flyers are better. Which is what I said before.
they're better cuz they can play defense... but i don't think we'll have the puck in the net as much as they will. i'm just saying you have to consider a PP-unit when discussing a team offensively.

i think we will be good on the PP, but i also think that the Pens are going to be lights-out on the PP.

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08-16-2005, 12:46 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb
LeClair / Beech / Koltsov v. Kapanen / Primeau / Sharp
LeClair > Kapanen, Beech > Primeau, Koltsov ?? Sharp

n[/B]

Kappenen is the better all round player than Leclaire and Beech is in no way, shape or form greater than ,= to or even in the same league as Primeau, any credibility you had just went out the window with that statement. Very absurd

POINTS

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08-16-2005, 12:47 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
but i don't think we'll have the puck in the net as much as they will.
If you account for the power play, then no, probably not. However, if you're strictly looking at the two teams on paper, five on five, the Flyers would appear to have an advantage offensively because of their depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
POINTS
That's very debateable.

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08-16-2005, 12:48 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
POINTS
Beech will not have more point than Primeau, he may not even make that team, still an absurd statement.

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08-16-2005, 12:50 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
If you account for the power play, then no, probably not. However, if you're strictly looking at the two teams on paper, five on five, the Flyers would appear to have an advantage offensively because of their depth.
we don't have that much depth offensively... unfortunately.

we're banking on a rook making the move from center to wing being on our top-line and producing... the LW, my favorite player, on that line has had a significant drop in shooting % the last couple of seasons.

our second-line RW is also a huge question mark.

Kapanen and Primeau have lost the ability to finish with regularity the last few years (hopefully Preems retains the touch he refound in the playoffs.) and the RW on that line is a question mark offensively.

we will have one the better fourth lines out there offensively... but that doesn't matter as much as the question marks we do have offensively.

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