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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-05-2014, 08:55 PM
  #226
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We will continue to disagree.
But I can support what I'm arguing. You can't.
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The Habs had Subban during his prime Norris Trophy season. 1st Round Exit. We did not have Vanek and we had very little scoring against Ottawa.
This is your idea of an argument?

Because we didn't advance... it means that Subban isn't good enough to take us anywhere? How does this make any sense whatsoever? It's like pointing to Stamkos and saying that he isn't as valuable as Brent Seabrook because he's never led his team to a cup...

Your argument is ludicrous. And dude, Subban has scored more playoff points in fewer playoff games than Vanek and he's a freaking defenseman. So wtf are you talking about?
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This team sorely needs the offensive punch that Vanek now provides. And Vanek should be Priority # 1 for Bergevin. Subban can be Priority # 1A (if that might make you feel better).
Without Subban this team wouldn't have made the playoffs to begin with. You are being ridiculous here.
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Please, go ahead bookmark it...

I, unlike many posters here, am not afraid to say I was wrong... and unlike other posters I can be critical of players because I'm not in love with any of them.
Really? Damn, I wish I could do that too...
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Subban is arguably the most talented Defenceman in the league, but you're mistaking talent with results.
Everyone knows his results aren't up to where they should be this season. The question is... why? He was awesome last year and even better the first month of this year. Then the system changed and the whole team (including Subban) went south.

Up until this season, the RESULTS would show Subban to be the best blueliner averaged over the past few years and on the sunny side of 25 too.
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Subby-doo is exciting and when he's on, so important and a real game changer. But elite players don't get benched, don't make mental mistakes over and over again... and don't bring the discriminatory card about his use... he had a very poor season, yet he's still top in the league in offensive categories which tells a lot about his skills.
They do when they have an idiot for a coach.

Most elite players would've freaked out by now. We're lucky he hasn't. No way this guy should've been ****ing benched and pretty much every analyst has questioned MT on this.

Our coach is an idiot. Him benching Subban is a reflection on the coach, not Subban.
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But, he's not playing up to his talent and that's why he doesn't deserve to be the most paid defenceman (espacially that he isn't UFA). Leave your rose-colored glasses home and be a little more critical for the greater good of the team. We just can't commit to that type of deal (8mil+) for a player who plays when he decides to... like Ovechkin.
His defensive numbers over the past few seasons are stellar dude. Offensively very few come close. Even this season (while they aren't up to his usual standards) he's still very good. Yes he's fallen off... but wtf do you expect when MT is putting sub NHL talent with him as a pairing and using a stupid dump and chase? There's nothing wrong with this team that a coaching change wouldn't fix.

As for us not being able to commit to 8 mil? You better screw your head back on the right way because he's well worth that money and I will not be surprised to see him offered more as an RFA. And he will be worth it.

As for "rose coloured glasses"... his numbers are what they are - among the best defensively AND offensively for a few years now. The guy is a Norris trophy winner at 23 years old. So WTF are you talking about?
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As for Weber... Why ? Because he's better and signed to a 7,8mil cap hit deal... that's why.
He's not better. He's more physical and he's awesome. But he doesn't have Subban's skills. Subban controls the puck and plays solid defense. His defensive numbers have been significantly better than Weber's for a while now. Even if we call it a draw though, Subban kills him with the puck. Unlike Weber, he's already got a Norris to boot.

And he's four years younger and just coming into his prime.
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... oh and for future references : elite player make their teammates better. Markov does... don't play the "Bouillon card" espacially that's he's been paired a lot more with Georges and Markov than Bouillon.
Dude, Subban has played with Bouillion almost 8 x as much as Markov has. And he's been stuck playing with Murray 8 x as much as well. This is not a "card" that's being played... Subban's been stuck with this guy for 230 mins this season compared to Markov's 30.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

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04-05-2014, 09:53 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Without Subban this team wouldn't have made the playoffs to begin with. You are being ridiculous here.
Again, if you would calm down and understand what I am saying, you would not have to resort to making posts like the above.

This team needs offensive support from a player like Vanek to make a Cup run.

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04-05-2014, 09:55 PM
  #228
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At this point, he'd be lucky to have 3 M$.

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04-05-2014, 10:19 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Again, if you would calm down and understand what I am saying, you would not have to resort to making posts like the above.

This team needs offensive support from a player like Vanek to make a Cup run.
Again, that's not what's being disputed.

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04-05-2014, 10:25 PM
  #230
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Has Subban not been playing well lately? He's on my fantasy team and noticed he's only had 2 SOG in his last 4 games. He was averaging around 3 SOG a game before that.

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04-05-2014, 10:29 PM
  #231
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Has Subban not been playing well lately? He's on my fantasy team and noticed he's only had 2 SOG in his last 4 games. He was averaging around 3 SOG a game before that.
He is in a bit of a funk right now.

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04-05-2014, 10:30 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Again, if you would calm down and understand what I am saying, you would not have to resort to making posts like the above.

This team needs offensive support from a player like Vanek to make a Cup run.
It'd be nice if you could understand too...you need BOTH a D like Subban and a W like Vanek. Not either/or.

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04-05-2014, 10:31 PM
  #233
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The snow angel he did on the wings 3rd goal was beautiful though

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04-05-2014, 10:36 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
It'd be nice if you could understand too...you need BOTH a D like Subban and a W like Vanek. Not either/or.



Now I know you are doing that on purpose.

Its OK man. Never have I ever said either/or. All I have ever said comparing the two is that Vanek is having a greater impact than PK now and deserves to have the bank vault opened for him in an effort to keep him here.

If you want to read anything else into that, feel free to do it. A few others are doing that so jump right in with them.

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04-05-2014, 10:42 PM
  #235
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He needs to learn how to play a 2 on 1 though. He looked like a pee-wee there.

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04-05-2014, 10:46 PM
  #236
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It probably is the coach's antics that did him in. But the fact of the matter is he's not very good defensively right now. He looks lost. No confidence. And to reward his ACTUAL play with an 8M per year contract would be weird to say the least.

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04-06-2014, 10:22 AM
  #237
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It probably is the coach's antics that did him in. But the fact of the matter is he's not very good defensively right now. He looks lost. No confidence. And to reward his ACTUAL play with an 8M per year contract would be weird to say the least.
Some NHL teams hand out long term deals with "faith" built into the $-values, particularly for young players who are or seem likely to be blossoming into long-term stars in the league. I don't think the Habs org shows too much "faith" in Subban in any respect, however.

They showed "faith" in Desharnais and Emelin on smaller scales, though, so I don't think there is a philosophical aversion to that approach in general. It's just specifically with Subban they may well not believe in his potential to grow into a payscale that may seem a little high for his current performance, whereas for other specific players they are ok with that.

I personally have the requisite "faith" that Subban can be an $8M player. I think Meehan is obliged to as well. What remains to be seen is basically what Subban thinks about it all. For a "cocky" guy, he seems unusually humble about his role on the team and career trajectory in general, at least in the publicly spoken word context. So I wouldn't be entirely shocked if he took the Habs' likely-$6Mish offer. But all it takes is somebody with either a little faith or the capacity and willingness to gamble $2M extra. There are going to be NHL GMs who meet some of those criteria, so the Habs will likely have quite a test coming, probably.

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04-06-2014, 10:35 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Some NHL teams hand out long term deals with "faith" built into the $-values, particularly for young players who are or seem likely to be blossoming into long-term stars in the league. I don't think the Habs org shows too much "faith" in Subban in any respect, however.

They showed "faith" in Desharnais and Emelin on smaller scales, though, so I don't think there is a philosophical aversion to that approach in general. It's just specifically with Subban they may well not believe in his potential to grow into a payscale that may seem a little high for his current performance, whereas for other specific players they are ok with that.

I personally have the requisite "faith" that Subban can be an $8M player. I think Meehan is obliged to as well. What remains to be seen is basically what Subban thinks about it all. For a "cocky" guy, he seems unusually humble about his role on the team and career trajectory in general, at least in the publicly spoken word context. So I wouldn't be entirely shocked if he took the Habs' likely-$6Mish offer. But all it takes is somebody with either a little faith or the capacity and willingness to gamble $2M extra. There are going to be NHL GMs who meet some of those criteria, so the Habs will likely have quite a test coming, probably.
I really hope that MB remembers that we lowballed him last time around. Hopefully Meehan reminds him of this gently and the Habs understand that 8 mil per year is justified.

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04-06-2014, 12:17 PM
  #239
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I find it rather funny that the Habs best dman since Markov's first injury is still in contract talks while other players get signed almost instantly.

Subban grew up a Habs fan (his parents live behind my friend in Nobleton), as his father told me face to face. He doesn't want to leave but he can't put up with the negativity that surrounds him on the team. The GM and coach don't defend him but rather throw him under a bus. He's asking for more because he wants to know the organization has his back (as they haven't proven otherwise in his eyes). His dad said that PK would be extremely sad if he's traded. He loves the city, playing infront of the Montreal Canadiens fans, wearing the jersey that he dreamed of as a kid.

He's the true leader on this team, according to his pops, that he get along with everyone (especially Price, Prust and Galch).

IMHO he's worth between $6.5-7.75 per. He's what this franchise needs and has needed for a long time. He's a humble kid (he bought his parents their house, is constantly there in the off season), and he what an athlete of his race should be (someone that gives back). He's played street hockey with kids in his parents neighborhood, after ringing on their doors asking if they wanted to play.

The kid loves hockey.

Vanek, all though would be nice isnt worth $8 at 30 years old. Those long term high cap deals should be reserved for franchise players, for the kids you draft and develop. I'm sorry but you still win cups with defensive (and it's true for soccer, football, baseball etc). Defense wins, offense is for entertainment.

Remove the Pens d from their cup run, Tampa's, Chicago 's and they don't win.

Hell LA won because of their D, not because of their offense. Yes offense if important, but by those 2 yahoo's on the back end on the ice are more important.

Sign Subban, if not this team will be in trouble unless they get a Doughty, Pietro, etc back.

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04-06-2014, 12:20 PM
  #240
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Say what you want about Jacques Martin, but he seemed to know what he was doing with PK


I have a bad feeling subban will just end up signing some offer sheet from the flyers or something

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04-06-2014, 12:27 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by JPGoHabsGo View Post
Say what you want about Jacques Martin, but he seemed to know what he was doing with PK


I have a bad feeling subban will just end up signing some offer sheet from the flyers or something
As bad as the Martin system was, he knew how to handle younger players. He told PK to focus on his defensive side first and worry about offense later.

MT has been know to play favorites with his teams. He's a terrible coach and wouldn't be surprised if he's canned by November next year.

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04-06-2014, 01:15 PM
  #242
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Subban grew up a Habs fan (his parents live behind my friend in Nobleton), as his father told me face to face. He doesn't want to leave but he can't put up with the negativity that surrounds him on the team. The GM and coach don't defend him but rather throw him under a bus. He's asking for more because he wants to know the organization has his back (as they haven't proven otherwise in his eyes). His dad said that PK would be extremely sad if he's traded. He loves the city, playing infront of the Montreal Canadiens fans, wearing the jersey that he dreamed of as a kid.
That's ominous, if true. I hope for the sake of the future of this organization that it is not, but MT's continuing moronic treatment of PK does not give one reason to be confident.

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Sign Subban, if not this team will be in trouble unless they get a Doughty, Pietro, etc back.
"In trouble" is an understatement. If this organization puts the screws to PK and dumps him, we can kiss our Cup hopes good-bye for at least a decade, and it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to see Price follow PK out the door at the earliest opportunity.

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04-06-2014, 02:55 PM
  #243
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That's ominous, if true. I hope for the sake of the future of this organization that it is not, but MT's continuing moronic treatment of PK does not give one reason to be confident.


"In trouble" is an understatement. If this organization puts the screws to PK and dumps him, we can kiss our Cup hopes good-bye for at least a decade, and it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to see Price follow PK out the door at the earliest opportunity.
It all started when MT told Subban and Price the triple low five was a no go anymore. Which doesn't make sense, they'd only don't if Price gets a shot out and it was their way of celebrating. Why stop them doing that? That was the 1st time he threw him under a bus to the media when he discouraged the two doing that.

The NHL is trying to sell entertainment, but when a player celebrates 50 goals, a shut out or an incredible goal, the media jump on their back, yet when two players fight for no reason and pause the game for 2-5 mins it's fine...

I hope to God, OK gets his deal because I see certain players ******** the bed to be dealt if he is.

Only in Montreal does a Norris winner have to deal with this, have to "negotiate" a contract after taking a bridge deal, while an undrafted player that put up 40 pts gets a deal done before the mid way point.

If I was PK, I'd hold out and wait for an offer sheet because some team will offer him max, and the Habs will be forced to match it or lose him. Only way he's going to get paid.

But it's one Subban isn't worth 6.5-8 as a 24 year old, that will continue to get better, but a 34 year old is worth 5 over 2-3 years...

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04-06-2014, 03:20 PM
  #244
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I don't understand why anyone would care what Subban signs for...and if you would care, it would be to a lesser amount so that it gives the Habs more cap flexibility. But the Subban fefans here seem to be concerned he will not be paid enough.

Another question for the Subban fan club. Does he have any responsibility for his poor play or is it all MT's and whoever plays with Subban's fault? I guess it was Tinordi's fault for pinching when Subban decided to attempt the superstar play and totally taje hiself out of the 2x1.

Finally, why aren't there similar comments of concern for the lowball contract Patches signed? All I hear is what a great contract for the Habs to have Patches signed at 4.5....but for Subban we have to overpay?

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04-06-2014, 04:03 PM
  #245
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I don't understand why anyone would care what Subban signs for...and if you would care, it would be to a lesser amount so that it gives the Habs more cap flexibility. But the Subban fefans here seem to be concerned he will not be paid enough.

Another question for the Subban fan club. Does he have any responsibility for his poor play or is it all MT's and whoever plays with Subban's fault? I guess it was Tinordi's fault for pinching when Subban decided to attempt the superstar play and totally taje hiself out of the 2x1.

Finally, why aren't there similar comments of concern for the lowball contract Patches signed? All I hear is what a great contract for the Habs to have Patches signed at 4.5....but for Subban we have to overpay?
Patches signed his deal before he was a 30 goal scorer, before he even broke out.

Why are we still negotiating with the reining Norris winner? Why was he given a lesser deal (while being the Habs best dman) while Patches signed his without really proving anything?

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04-06-2014, 04:10 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by compile View Post
Patches signed his deal before he was a 30 goal scorer, before he even broke out.

Why are we still negotiating with the reining Norris winner? Why was he given a lesser deal (while being the Habs best dman) while Patches signed his without really proving anything?
Nice try - Patches scored 33 before he signed his extension.

Again, if you are a Habs fan wouldn't you want more flexibility on the cap? The two year bridge is proving to be a very positive move.

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04-06-2014, 05:28 PM
  #247
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So why is it bad for PK to celebrate goals, but Galchenyuk can do the bow and arrow move that people dont like from PK

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04-06-2014, 05:41 PM
  #248
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Nice try - Patches scored 33 before he signed his extension.

Again, if you are a Habs fan wouldn't you want more flexibility on the cap? The two year bridge is proving to be a very positive move.
So Patches scores 33 goals playing a sheltered role and a 6 year deal.

Subban, arguably the best dman on the team by a long shot, gets a bridge deal (slap in the face), wins the Norris, and still has to negotiate a new deal all season long.

Makes sense to screw around with arguably your best player.

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04-06-2014, 05:42 PM
  #249
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Patches signed his deal before he was a 30 goal scorer, before he even broke out.

Why are we still negotiating with the reining Norris winner? Why was he given a lesser deal (while being the Habs best dman) while Patches signed his without really proving anything?
I want Subban to maximize his potential on the ice. That to me is most likely to maximize the success of the team. I think if the Habs were trying to sign Subban for $6M, say, it pretty much leaves the door open for status quo. They can pay him below market value, pretend the Norris didn't happen, keep playing headgames with him, and it's all on Subban, basically. At $8M, I'd like to think it forces their hand, acknowledges he's all a league-wide star player, and _hopefully_ makes them use him like one. Which then helps us win games. It's an extra $2M insurance policy that I think would be beneficial for the team in both the short-term win column, and in the long-term in terms of establishing us with a star calibre perennial Norris candidate. I don't think $2M means much of anything on the cap of a well-managed team. I'd cheerfully see $2M more kicked towards having greater confidence in the likelihood of the Habs maximizing their return on Subban.

That said, I also think that Subban holding on for $8M essentially ensures that he gets traded or signs and offer sheet with another NHL team, soooooo...

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04-06-2014, 05:47 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I want Subban to maximize his potential on the ice. That to me is most likely to maximize the success of the team. I think if the Habs were trying to sign Subban for $6M, say, it pretty much leaves the door open for status quo. They can pay him below market value, pretend the Norris didn't happen, keep playing headgames with him, and it's all on Subban, basically. At $8M, I'd like to think it forces their hand, acknowledges he's all a league-wide star player, and _hopefully_ makes them use him like one. Which then helps us win games. It's an extra $2M insurance policy that I think would be beneficial for the team in both the short-term win column, and in the long-term in terms of establishing us with a star calibre perennial Norris candidate. I don't think $2M means much of anything on the cap of a well-managed team. I'd cheerfully see $2M more kicked towards having greater confidence in the likelihood of the Habs maximizing their return on Subban.

That said, I also think that Subban holding on for $8M essentially ensures that he gets traded or signs and offer sheet with another NHL team, soooooo...

The only way he signs an offer sheet is if the Habs brass don't match. If that happens... I'd be lost for words.

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