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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-06-2014, 04:54 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I want Subban to maximize his potential on the ice. That to me is most likely to maximize the success of the team. I think if the Habs were trying to sign Subban for $6M, say, it pretty much leaves the door open for status quo. They can pay him below market value, pretend the Norris didn't happen, keep playing headgames with him, and it's all on Subban, basically. At $8M, I'd like to think it forces their hand, acknowledges he's all a league-wide star player, and _hopefully_ makes them use him like one. Which then helps us win games. It's an extra $2M insurance policy that I think would be beneficial for the team in both the short-term win column, and in the long-term in terms of establishing us with a star calibre perennial Norris candidate. I don't think $2M means much of anything on the cap of a well-managed team. I'd cheerfully see $2M more kicked towards having greater confidence in the likelihood of the Habs maximizing their return on Subban.

That said, I also think that Subban holding on for $8M essentially ensures that he gets traded or signs and offer sheet with another NHL team, soooooo...
So if I understand correctly, you need to overpay a player to have him perform at what we believe is his potential.

Again - all the arguments I read takes away all the responsibility from Subban and places it on everyone else.

Let's see if I understand correctly.

- MB plays headgames and embarrassed him by forcing a bridge contract. Because of his low ball contract he cannot perform at his optimum level. MB must now pay him like Doughty to have him play like Doughty.

- MT - well we know he has it out for Subban. This has affected his confidence. Martin knew how to get the best of Subban. MT only picks on PK. PK is a top 5 defenseman in the NHL but is being treated as a scrub by his coach.

- PK is being exposed because he plays with Boullion/Gorges/Murray/Tinordi.

Just once I would like the one of the chartered members of the Subban is the best Defenseman in the NHL to show an ounce of objectivity and maybe include Subban's role in his treatment/ice time/ contract negotiation.

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04-06-2014, 05:22 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
So if I understand correctly, you need to overpay a player to have him perform at what we believe is his potential.

Again - all the arguments I read takes away all the responsibility from Subban and places it on everyone else.

Let's see if I understand correctly.

- MB plays headgames and embarrassed him by forcing a bridge contract. Because of his low ball contract he cannot perform at his optimum level. MB must now pay him like Doughty to have him play like Doughty.

- MT - well we know he has it out for Subban. This has affected his confidence. Martin knew how to get the best of Subban. MT only picks on PK. PK is a top 5 defenseman in the NHL but is being treated as a scrub by his coach.

- PK is being exposed because he plays with Boullion/Gorges/Murray/Tinordi.

Just once I would like the one of the chartered members of the Subban is the best Defenseman in the NHL to show an ounce of objectivity and maybe include Subban's role in his treatment/ice time/ contract negotiation.
So let me understand this correctly.

-Subban wasn't worth $5m/5-6 years. Offered a bridge deal to prove himself

-wins Norris, best dman on the Habs

-doesn't complain at all (to the media) about his treatment or his coach

Lp
-led the team in points as a Dman for 3/4 of the season.



Ya he's definitely not worth the money. Yes he makes mistakes. Name 3 players in this league that don't.

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Old
04-06-2014, 10:11 PM
  #253
TravisF
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Subban is a superstar and the best player on the Habs along with Price imo. The Canadiens need him.

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04-06-2014, 10:21 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by TravisF View Post
Subban is a superstar and the best player on the Habs along with Price imo. The Canadiens need him.
He hasn't played like a superstar recently. That's the problem.

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04-06-2014, 10:31 PM
  #255
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Nice try - Patches scored 33 before he signed his extension.

Again, if you are a Habs fan wouldn't you want more flexibility on the cap? The two year bridge is proving to be a very positive move.
I'd want our key players to be HAPPY! If that means paying them what they want then so be it. We're not talking about a secondary player. We're talking about one of the cornerstones of your franchise!

Something just isn't right. There's no consistency in their actions. They signed Max, Carey, DD, Bouillion, etc... without much of an issue. PK was forced to hold out. Take a bridge deal that helped the team and only the teamm and now they're dragging along on his next deal. They don't think highly of him, it's a no brainer. GM and coach have yet to say anything positive about him and have shied away from any positivity regarding him. You have to treat your good players well. Can't treat them like a call up. It's ridiculous. Whether you're for or against how much money he gets. He's treated like ****.

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04-06-2014, 10:32 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
He hasn't played like a superstar recently. That's the problem.
You know a superstar that plays with Bouillion?

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04-06-2014, 10:36 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
You know a superstar that plays with Bouillion?
Didn't seemed to bother him during his Norris season.

edit: Just to add; when I see him fumble with the puck in his own zone while he was supposed to make a clean first pass, it's not Bouillon's fault. Not saying it happened often, just saying that many of Subban's current problems are not Bouillon's fault either.

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04-06-2014, 11:02 PM
  #258
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His contract value isn't based on his performance but what some team is likely to pay him. Subban knows that's at least 8 million as a free agent. No amount of head games, criticism or micro analysis of his stats is going to change that fundamental truth. If he doesn't get paid his market value, he could hold out, sign an offer sheet, or go to arbitration. He holds pretty much all the cards at the moment. The only question is if its going to be dragged out or decided quickly, but the result is the same. 8 million minimum per year, or more, whether you think that's fair or not.

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04-06-2014, 11:06 PM
  #259
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I don't think Pk is in the top 5 of the league or ever will be for that matter. He's between 5 and 10 and should be paid as such. I hope they don't try and lowball him, he took a poorer contract last time and should be paid where he slots in this time. If he turns out to be the next Doughty well good for us. I just don't think he is worth the risk of overpaying.

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04-06-2014, 11:08 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
His contract value isn't based on his performance but what some team is likely to pay him. Subban knows that's at least 8 million as a free agent. No amount of head games, criticism or micro analysis of his stats is going to change that fundamental truth. If he doesn't get paid his market value, he could hold out, sign an offer sheet, or go to arbitration. He holds pretty much all the cards at the moment. The only question is if its going to be dragged out or decided quickly, but the result is the same. 8 million minimum per year, or more, whether you think that's fair or not.
People that sign offer sheets are idiots, if you want out, you hold out for your 2 years, not sign a 8 year contract to be stuck where you don't want to be when it gets matched.

lolWeber

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04-06-2014, 11:22 PM
  #261
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After Subby settled on his last contract from MB, he's gonna want a big pay day now and I don't blame him. We could have had him for cheaper but MB wanted him to prove he can get to the next level and I think he has. Winning the Norris last year and although he has struggled lately, he is still the best D man we have had in years.

Stop comparing contracts of the current top D men, because those deals were signed in previous seasons, if those same D men were free agents this year with the expected salary cap going up, they would be getting paid a lot more than what they are currently getting paid.

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04-06-2014, 11:49 PM
  #262
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During the last negociation PK used Dougthy as a reference.
That was before he won the Norris (but also before this season).

So anyone think he should get 10M?
How about 9M?
How about 8M and be the best paid d-men in the league?
Better than Chara, Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Weber, Bouwmeester, Pietrangelo.

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04-06-2014, 11:58 PM
  #263
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Based on points alone, Subban is going to command a hefty price and we'll have to pay it. There is no moral victory if we lose him. If he goes, we might as well just blow up the whole team and tank because no team will win the Cup without 3 solid D pairs.

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04-06-2014, 11:59 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Sentinels View Post
After Subby settled on his last contract from MB, he's gonna want a big pay day now and I don't blame him. We could have had him for cheaper but MB wanted him to prove he can get to the next level and I think he has. Winning the Norris last year and although he has struggled lately, he is still the best D man we have had in years.

Stop comparing contracts of the current top D men, because those deals were signed in previous seasons, if those same D men were free agents this year with the expected salary cap going up, they would be getting paid a lot more than what they are currently getting paid.
Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo were signed this year.
Now to compare you can also look at % of SCap.

I guess you are among the ones that wants to sign PK at 9M...

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04-06-2014, 11:59 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
People that sign offer sheets are idiots, if you want out, you hold out for your 2 years, not sign a 8 year contract to be stuck where you don't want to be when it gets matched.

lolWeber
In those two years, your value could drop for any number of reasons, injuries chief among them. As a player, you have to think long term security. I also think players and agents sense when a team is prepared to match an offer. I can't recall a player signing an offer sheet and not being matched, to be honest. Have there been many?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
During the last negociation PK used Dougthy as a reference.
That was before he won the Norris (but also before this season).

So anyone think he should get 10M?
How about 9M?
How about 8M and be the best paid d-men in the league?
Better than Chara, Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Weber, Bouwmeester, Pietrangelo.

I really think that "should get" is the wrong way to look at it. It makes it look like we're in control. The question is more "will you pay him 8, 9 or 10 million if the alternative is losing him." Like I said, fairness has nothing to do with it. Comparing him to Chara and other D is a useful exercise, but ultimately the choice isn't going to be between Doughty at 7 million or Subban at 8, it's going to be Subban at 8 or nothing. There's no scenario where we're choosing between Norris defenseman at varying rates.

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04-07-2014, 12:06 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo were signed this year.
Now to compare you can also look at % of SCap.

I guess you are among the ones that wants to sign PK at 9M...
Nobody wants to sign Subban at 9M. We all want to sign him for the least amount possible. But you can't make Subban sign for 6M a year. You're going to show him flip charts with other D salaries and statistics and persuade him that his value is lower than what some other team is willing to pay? Subban walks, you have 9M in cap space, enjoy.

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04-07-2014, 12:15 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo were signed this year.
Now to compare you can also look at % of SCap.

I guess you are among the ones that wants to sign PK at 9M...
This is not about what I want, it's about what it will take to sign PK. The 3 players you mentioned have not won the Norris nor were they even candidates before. If Phaneuf is getting 7 mil a year, PK is probably worth at least 1 or maybe even 2 more.

PK is not a dumb guy, he knows if he asks for too much, the team won't be able to field a good team to play with him and he wants to win. However with the way he has been treated last negotiations and the way MT is treating him and highlighting every mistake he makes may rub him the wrong way. End of day is had the Habs Organization believed that he would become an elite D-men before the start of last season, they could have signed him to a long term deal for probably 6.5 mil per. So it's going to be kind of hard to tell PK, hey we told you last time we will give you a bridge deal and you prove to us you can be an elite dmen, and now we don't wanna pay up.

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04-07-2014, 12:17 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
Nobody wants to sign Subban at 9M. We all want to sign him for the least amount possible. But you can't make Subban sign for 6M a year. You're going to show him flip charts with other D salaries and statistics and persuade him that his value is lower than what some other team is willing to pay? Subban walks, you have 9M in cap space, enjoy.
Totally agree, it's not like the Habs are able to go out and get a better or equal replacement even if we have the cap space to spend.

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04-07-2014, 12:35 AM
  #269
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I remember when PK first came up with the Habs in the playoffs in 2010 (he had played in two back to back games against the Flyers earlier in the season). I believe it was against the Washington Capitals. Every fan seemed so excited. He made this behind the legs pass in the defensive zone and he made it look so easy. It was awesome.

However, I still remember some one saying that despite how much we all love him now, we'll eventually turn on him, cause that's what Habs fans (or all sports fans for that matter) inevitably do.

PK Subban has improved every year since he's been on this team. Every year, except for this one. It's funny how people forget how dominant he looked early on in the season. He was perhaps the best defenseman in the league to start the 2013-2014 season. I'm not gonna let two months of post-Olympic play cloud the fact this young guy, at his very best, is at least a top 5 defenseman in the league.

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04-07-2014, 12:47 AM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Phaneuf, Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo were signed this year.
Now to compare you can also look at % of SCap.

I guess you are among the ones that wants to sign PK at 9M...
He's worth 9m. Any team in the league would sign him for that.

I hope we get him for 8 x 8 and move on. But he's actually worth more than that.

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04-07-2014, 01:47 AM
  #271
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I wonder what a Subban type player would get as a UFA.

Ryan Suter got 7 million a year over 13 years, closest comparable.

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04-07-2014, 05:13 AM
  #272
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Anyone saying Subban is worth over 8m is off their rocker. Pietrangelo, in a similar position as a RFA, got 6.5m. Both Team Canada and HFBoards polls have overwhelmingly placed Pietrangelo as the better, more valuable player. And yet you people think Subban deserves more?
Your argument is weak.

Here is a dose of reality:
1) Pietrangelo signed his contract a year earlier when the cap was smaller. The cap is rising by ~10% next year. So already the comparison is ~7.15 million.
2) Pietrangelo is younger and further removed from UFA, he is a cap hit of 6.5 million in his fourth and fifth contract years, compared to ~2.8 million for Subban.
3) Pietrangelo's contract includes 3 UFA years, whereas an 8 year deal for Subban would include 5 (6?) UFA years.
4) Subban has better career offensive PPG as well as a higher goals to assists ratio in spite of playing on a weaker team, all of which is true this year as well.

On the other hand, Pietrangelo is taller and whiter than Subban and he had a better draft rank. Those three items are worth 1 million a season each.


Last edited by DAChampion: 04-07-2014 at 05:33 AM.
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04-07-2014, 05:15 AM
  #273
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Cap space >>> Subban

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04-07-2014, 05:34 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by CrosbyFanboy87 View Post
Anyone saying Subban is worth over 8m is off their rocker. Pietrangelo, in a similar position as a RFA, got 6.5m. Both Team Canada and HFBoards polls have overwhelmingly placed Pietrangelo as the better, more valuable player. And yet you people think Subban deserves more?
I don't think Subban is worth 8 million neither. He is over rated to me. Shown in Ottawa first period come back Friday night when he was on the bench. Subban has a lot of flair but is -3 this year despite our second leading scorer.

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04-07-2014, 06:53 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
I remember when PK first came up with the Habs in the playoffs in 2010 (he had played in two back to back games against the Flyers earlier in the season). I believe it was against the Washington Capitals. Every fan seemed so excited. He made this behind the legs pass in the defensive zone and he made it look so easy. It was awesome.

However, I still remember some one saying that despite how much we all love him now, we'll eventually turn on him, cause that's what Habs fans (or all sports fans for that matter) inevitably do.

PK Subban has improved every year since he's been on this team. Every year, except for this one. It's funny how people forget how dominant he looked early on in the season. He was perhaps the best defenseman in the league to start the 2013-2014 season. I'm not gonna let two months of post-Olympic play cloud the fact this young guy, at his very best, is at least a top 5 defenseman in the league.
Habs fans will love you one day then burn your house down the next. Then wonder why elite players won't come here. Pretty sad what has happened to PK. Remember Price? If Max has an off year get ready.

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