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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-07-2014, 06:59 AM
  #276
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
I don't think Subban is worth 8 million neither. He is over rated to me. Shown in Ottawa first period come back Friday night when he was on the bench. Subban has a lot of flair but is -3 this year despite our second leading scorer.
Now what about his play in the playoffs? People have short term memories here. If the Habs are going to look at one game during the regular season to determine PKs value they deserve to get taken to the cleaners on an offer sheet. Lol at people here acting like it will be easy to replace Subban. Hahahha. Just like the same group that thought Diaz could replace him. What a joke.

PK doesn't look the part so he will always get this kind of criticism.

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04-07-2014, 07:06 AM
  #277
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Yeah I remember when people said that Diaz could replace Subban.

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04-07-2014, 07:06 AM
  #278
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For all Subban haters, if he walks, the Habs will fall. There iso noone near his level to replace him. Say good bye to contender hopes.

He WILL get the 7-8mil/year whether we pay it or not. But I don't think the owners will let MB to let him walk.

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04-07-2014, 07:40 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Habs fans will love you one day then burn your house down the next. Then wonder why elite players won't come here. Pretty sad what has happened to PK. Remember Price? If Max has an off year get ready.
I dont think people hate PK. It's obvious there is a difference in the value some fans attribute him to but generally speaking everybody agrees he's a very important player.

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04-07-2014, 07:49 AM
  #280
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So if I understand correctly, you need to overpay a player to have him perform at what we believe is his potential.
I don't believe $8M would turn out to be an overpayment for Subban, though. But if paying him at $8M allows all the BS and headgames to be cast aside, then for sure, it's worth overpaying... pay him $9M or $10M if that's the case.
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- MB plays headgames and embarrassed him by forcing a bridge contract. Because of his low ball contract he cannot perform at his optimum level. MB must now pay him like Doughty to have him play like Doughty.
No, MB just doesn't think Subban is as good as he really is and doesn't respect Subban's abilities sufficiently. This merely serves to support the coach's utilization errors. MB should pay Subban like Doughty simply because Subban is as good as Doughty. And because our team would be worse if we lost Subban to another team which is willing to pay him as much as Doughty.
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- MT - well we know he has it out for Subban. This has affected his confidence. Martin knew how to get the best of Subban. MT only picks on PK. PK is a top 5 defenseman in the NHL but is being treated as a scrub by his coach.
I don't think Martin had it quite right either, mind you. But those were earlier days and he was at least catching on and doing better than MT. But aside from that, yes, MT is a dolt and picks on PK. PK is a top 5 defenseman in the NHL but is being treated as a scrub (in a relative sense - not a true "scrub" of course) by his coach.
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- PK is being exposed because he plays with Boullion/Gorges/Murray/Tinordi.
Not too much of an issue to me. The Habs played their best hockey when Markov and Subban were a pair and could give us a solid possession game and dominated control of the game for 25+ minutes. It is a fair question whether that 25+ minutes of dominance is worth more than the dream of a having two lesser pairs play well for 45 minutes... it surely wasn't during Emelin's first 20+ games when Emelin universally sucked. It may be getting closer to the desired effect now that Emelin is playing well. Well, or it would be if the other pair with Subban was also playing well.

Gorges is a good defenseman and good partner for Subban, IMHO. Bouillon and Murray are awful. Tinordi is growing into a good potential partner as well. But Gorges is hurt, so it is what it is.

If I have any complaint on the issue of the lesser defensemen, it's that they can seemingly make more frequent and more egregious errors than Subban and never get benched or castigated for it, where Subban can be. It's a bizarre double standard to me that comes back to the overall disrespect that the coach (and by extension management) have for Subban. I don't think there's any situation in which using these inferior bottom pairing/fringe defensemen ahead of Subban can help us win games either. At that point the biases are hurting the team's ability to compete.

And yes, it's also fair to expect that all this BS could have an effect on Subban's confidence and his ability to perform on the ice. It sure *looks* like it's having an effect.

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04-07-2014, 07:53 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I dont think people hate PK. It's obvious there is a difference in the value some fans attribute him to but generally speaking everybody agrees he's a very important player.
I think some don't think he's that valuable or important. A small minority, I'll admit. You do remember when PK held out all the people that said he was expendable, reckless, not worth it? I know you remember.

PK should be viewed in the same way Max and Price are. Cornerstone players.

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04-07-2014, 08:26 AM
  #282
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Anyone saying Subban is worth over 8m is off their rocker. Pietrangelo, in a similar position as a RFA, got 6.5m. Both Team Canada and HFBoards polls have overwhelmingly placed Pietrangelo as the better, more valuable player. And yet you people think Subban deserves more?
Forget Team Canada... AP was a pairing with his partner from St. Louis. It doesn't make him better.

AP's circumstances were totally different. He had bonuses at a younger age and didn't have to do some kind of stupid bridge deal.

Subban was force fed a ridiculously low contract and actually signed it. Then he promptly went out an won a Norris. There's also a new collective bargaining agreement and he's RFA for only one more year.

And btw, teams would pay more than 8m for AP too.

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04-07-2014, 08:28 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't believe $8M would turn out to be an overpayment for Subban, though. But if paying him at $8M allows all the BS and headgames to be cast aside, then for sure, it's worth overpaying... pay him $9M or $10M if that's the case.

No, MB just doesn't think Subban is as good as he really is and doesn't respect Subban's abilities sufficiently. This merely serves to support the coach's utilization errors. MB should pay Subban like Doughty simply because Subban is as good as Doughty. And because our team would be worse if we lost Subban to another team which is willing to pay him as much as Doughty.

I don't think Martin had it quite right either, mind you. But those were earlier days and he was at least catching on and doing better than MT. But aside from that, yes, MT is a dolt and picks on PK. PK is a top 5 defenseman in the NHL but is being treated as a scrub (in a relative sense - not a true "scrub" of course) by his coach.

Not too much of an issue to me. The Habs played their best hockey when Markov and Subban were a pair and could give us a solid possession game and dominated control of the game for 25+ minutes. It is a fair question whether that 25+ minutes of dominance is worth more than the dream of a having two lesser pairs play well for 45 minutes... it surely wasn't during Emelin's first 20+ games when Emelin universally sucked. It may be getting closer to the desired effect now that Emelin is playing well. Well, or it would be if the other pair with Subban was also playing well.

Gorges is a good defenseman and good partner for Subban, IMHO. Bouillon and Murray are awful. Tinordi is growing into a good potential partner as well. But Gorges is hurt, so it is what it is.

If I have any complaint on the issue of the lesser defensemen, it's that they can seemingly make more frequent and more egregious errors than Subban and never get benched or castigated for it, where Subban can be. It's a bizarre double standard to me that comes back to the overall disrespect that the coach (and by extension management) have for Subban. I don't think there's any situation in which using these inferior bottom pairing/fringe defensemen ahead of Subban can help us win games either. At that point the biases are hurting the team's ability to compete.

And yes, it's also fair to expect that all this BS could have an effect on Subban's confidence and his ability to perform on the ice. It sure *looks* like it's having an effect.
Great post.

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04-07-2014, 08:29 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Forget Team Canada... AP was a pairing with his partner from St. Louis. It doesn't make him better.
Everyone needs to remember that Hitchcock was essentially running the D on Team Canada, which meant the AP/JB pair was a lock. Doughty & Weber were also locks on the right-hand side, and the coaching staff did not believe in playing D on their off-sides. That effectively left nowhere for PK to slot in, unfortunately.

I'm not convinced JB belonged there, and AP frankly didn't look better than PK would have, but it was what it was.

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04-07-2014, 08:37 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Everyone needs to remember that Hitchcock was essentially running the D on Team Canada, which meant the AP/JB pair was a lock. Doughty & Weber were also locks on the right-hand side, and the coaching staff did not believe in playing D on their off-sides. That effectively left nowhere for PK to slot in, unfortunately.

I'm not convinced JB belonged there, and AP frankly didn't look better than PK would have, but it was what it was.
Folks conveniently forget that Subban offered up a 5 x 5 package that we turned down.

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04-07-2014, 08:40 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Folks conveniently forget that Subban offered up a 5 x 5 package that we turned down.
And if we had accepted it, we wouldn't have had the space to acquire Vanek.

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04-07-2014, 08:41 AM
  #287
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For all Subban haters, if he walks, the Habs will fall. There iso noone near his level to replace him. Say good bye to contender hopes.

He WILL get the 7-8mil/year whether we pay it or not. But I don't think the owners will let MB to let him walk.
Here it comes...

Not wanting to pay a player 8mil+ a year and instead wanting him to sign a contract of 7,5mil in between 5-8 years is now considered being a hater

Subban isn't hated, he's loved... actually idolized. Bouillon is hated, DD gets hate... Subban doesn't FFS !

It's all about the team, if you pay Subban elite money and isn't able to bring that type of play EVERY ****ING GAME like a superstar is supposed to do, then the team is in trouble.

The best scenario would be Subban re-signing to a great reasonnable contract, a contract similar to Doughty, Letang and Karlsson.

Then you have the alternatives... signing Subban to a bad and expensive contract (8mil+ a year) is still much better than just losing him via an offer sheet or a trade for prospects and good, but not great, players.

... but a very good scenario would be to use him as bait to get a great franchise player, like Shea Weber, in return.

These are alternatives... and franckly, aside from plan A which is keeping PK with this team on a reasonnable contract, best case scenario... I feel the best alternative would be getting Weber instead of overpaying for PK... if that's possible.

Wow, that's just blind hate, right there... you morons

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04-07-2014, 08:42 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
And if we had accepted it, we wouldn't have had the space to acquire Vanek.
PK's contract is not the problem. Anybody should be able to see that. You think he's not worth 5 mil? Of course he is. And he should have been paid like it.

We wouldn't have been able to afford Vanek because of Briere. THAT's the way to look at it.

And if we want to keep Vanek, that's the guy we'll have to get rid of.

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04-07-2014, 08:44 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Here it comes...

Not wanting to pay a player 8mil+ a year and instead wanting him to sign a contract of 7,5mil in between 5-8 years is now considered being a hater

Subban isn't hated, he's loved... actually idolized. Bouillon is hated, DD gets hate... Subban doesn't FFS !

It's all about the team, if you pay Subban elite money and isn't able to bring that type of play EVERY ****ING GAME like a superstar is supposed to do, then the team is in trouble.

The best scenario would be Subban re-signing to a great reasonnable contract, a contract similar to Doughty, Letang and Karlsson.

Then you have the alternatives... signing Subban to a bad and expensive contract (8mil+ a year) is still much better than just losing him via an offer sheet or a trade for prospects and good, but not great, players.

... but a very good scenario would be to use him as bait to get a great franchise player, like Shea Weber, in return.

These are alternatives... and franckly, aside from plan A which is keeping PK with this team on a reasonnable contract, best case scenario... I feel the best alternative would be getting Weber instead of overpaying for PK... if that's possible.

Wow, that's just blind hate, right there... you morons
We already got a steal on him because he took less money than what he was worth to stay here.

And there really aren't any alternatives man. You aren't going to get near anything for him that's close to equal in return.

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04-07-2014, 08:46 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We already got a steal on him because he took less money than what he was worth to stay here.

And there really aren't any alternatives man. You aren't going to get near anything for him that's close to equal in return.
I don't agree with you... I think a 3 way trade is actually possible between Nashville, Edmonton and MTL...

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04-07-2014, 08:46 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
PK's contract is not the problem. Anybody should be able to see that. You think he's not worth 5 mil? Of course he is. And he should have been paid like it.

We wouldn't have been able to afford Vanek because of Briere. THAT's the way to look at it.

And if we want to keep Vanek, that's the guy we'll have to get rid of.
There's a few games we won because of Briere. He also is providing much-needed relief centering the 3rd line because Eller can't seem to get going.

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04-07-2014, 08:47 AM
  #292
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There's a few games we won because of Briere. He also is providing much-needed relief centering the 3rd line because Eller can't seem to get going.
We never should've signed him.

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04-07-2014, 08:48 AM
  #293
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I don't agree with you... I think a 3 way trade is actually possible between Nashville, Edmonton and MTL...
Okay... what is it?

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04-07-2014, 08:55 AM
  #294
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We never should've signed him.
Right now, he's part of the reason we are winning.

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04-07-2014, 08:55 AM
  #295
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And if we had accepted it, we wouldn't have had the space to acquire Vanek.
That's just BS and you know it.

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04-07-2014, 08:56 AM
  #296
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Right now, he's part of the reason we are winning.
Never should've signed him. And if we want Vanek, he needs to go.

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04-07-2014, 08:58 AM
  #297
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Okay... what is it?
Nashville isn't going anywhere and they're losing money. Weber makes like 14mil a year right now. I think they would be willing to trade him if they get an unbelievable return of great prospects and picks.

Edmonton are a disaster, they need a PK in their team and I'm pretty sure they would give the moon to get him.

While we are not re-building, we don't need Top 5 picks for PK... but Nashville would... Weber wouldn't waive his NTC to go to Edmonton, but I think he would for MTL.

...so 2+2 = 4

PK doesn't have a NTC (except if he signs an offer sheets and we have to match it) so off Edm you go...

Something like:

Edm :
PK
Prospects... not named DLR or MAC (and ideally Fucale... but I think he would be the deal maker)

Nashville :
Edm 2014 1st
Mtl 2014 1st
Yakupov
DD or Eller

MTL:
Weber
Eberle


This is a proposal that should go in the right thread... and there's a lot to be worked out... but I think the base of this trade can be done.

But, like I wrote earlier... signing PK to a Letang-like deal would just save us a lot of trouble.

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04-07-2014, 08:58 AM
  #298
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That's just BS and you know it.
Actually, help me out here.

Capgeek say "Salary Cap" is 64,3M$

It says out "Cap Payroll" is 64,159M$

But then, it says "Today's Space" is 5,2M$

where does the space comes from?

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04-07-2014, 09:01 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Actually, help me out here.

Capgeek say "Salary Cap" is 64,3M$

It says out "Cap Payroll" is 64,159M$

But then, it says "Today's Space" is 5,2M$

where does the space comes from?
My assumption is it's from all the games lost to injuries.
But even if we had 0 space. PK's contract wouldn't have been the problem and we could have made room just like every single other team does.

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04-07-2014, 09:04 AM
  #300
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Nashville isn't going anywhere and they're losing money. Weber makes like 14mil a year right now. I think they would be willing to trade him if they get an unbelievable return of great prospects and picks.

Edmonton are a disaster, they need a PK in their team and I'm pretty sure they would give the moon to get him.

While we are not re-building, we don't need Top 5 picks for PK... but Nashville would... Weber wouldn't waive his NTC to go to Edmonton, but I think he would for MTL.

...so 2+2 = 4

PK doesn't have a NTC (except if he signs an offer sheets and we have to match it) so off Edm you go...

Something like:

Edm :
PK
Prospects... not named DLR or MAC (and ideally Fucale... but I think he would be the deal maker)

Nashville :
Edm 2014 1st
Mtl 2014 1st
Yakupov
DD or Eller

MTL:
Weber
Eberle


This is a proposal that should go in the right thread... and there's a lot to be worked out... but I think the base of this trade can be done.

But, like I wrote earlier... signing PK to a Letang-like deal would just save us a lot of trouble.
If Nashville gives up Weber for picks and prospects they might as well close up shop right now. Weber's is about as untouchable as it gets, esp with him mentoring Jones.

I'm sorry but I don't see how this happens.

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