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Subban's next contract

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04-07-2014, 09:57 AM
  #326
jwolf
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Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
It's a gamble that the team has to take. Subban could be Doughty or he could be Phaneuf. But even a 70% Subban is more of a benefit than going with Markov, two prospects that still need to be eased in, and filler scrubs to fill the rest of the D corps. For me, the concern is that once Markov goes, Subban's supposed power play effectiveness lessens and he becomes more of a souped-up Jason Garrison than a true PP QB like Markov or Karlsson. But all can be forgiven if he becomes a rock in his own end.
Do you mean to imply "a guy with a shot only" type player? Subban is much more than that; I think he's proved it. He's also proved that he still has a bit of maturing to do. In a couple of years, this kid will develop into one of the best defenceman this team has ever had - which is saying a lot...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if this team messes up and somehow loses PK, they will regret it for the next 10-15 years.

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04-07-2014, 09:58 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
Do you mean to imply "a guy with a shot only" type player? Subban is much more than that; I think he's proved it. He's also proved that he still has a bit of maturing to do. In a couple of years, this kid will develop into one of the best defenceman this team has ever had - which is saying a lot...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if this team messes up and somehow loses PK, they will regret it for the next 10-15 years.
Look at it this way. If instead of "losing" PK, we end up making a Seguin or a Kessel-like trade?

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04-07-2014, 10:04 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I think some don't think he's that valuable or important. A small minority, I'll admit. You do remember when PK held out all the people that said he was expendable, reckless, not worth it? I know you remember.

PK should be viewed in the same way Max and Price are. Cornerstone players.
I have no problem viewing PK as a cornerstone of the team, I do have a problem viewing him as a very top tier defenseman of the league and paying him as such. He has had a problem with making plays that take himself out of the play and it continues to this day. If I pay elite money I want elite play, no bone head stuff, I don't think he's capable of making that adjustment. And before you all scream hater, I'd like to point out I am not alone in my thinking.

He's a wonderful player but his play reminds me a lot of Iafrate, I don't think he can take that next step.

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04-07-2014, 10:14 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Look at it this way. If instead of "losing" PK, we end up making a Seguin or a Kessel-like trade?
Trading a #1 defenseman for a top 6 winger will NEVER help a franchise.

We won't trade him for a centre who can potentially dethrone DD because he's our franchise player.

So what are we to do? Trade him for a package of prospects and average players?

Any trade we make will turn out to be a disaster. A handful of bad games does not make him a PP specialist. He he a TWO-WAY defenseman who must be relied on in key situations. He is 24 years old and is already among the best defenseman in the league. His advanced stats for the past 3 years, before this one, have him equal or better than Chara, Weber, etc.

He is a defenseman that has the ability to shutdown the best forwards in the league, deal crushing hits at the blue line, make passes that only a handful of players in this league can make, and he can single handedly take over a game as we've seen him do on multiple occasions this year.

In other words, he's a defenseman that every team in the NHL wants and needs. He's a defenseman that teams can build around and win cups with. But in Montreal, with this arrogant head coach of ours, he is a PP specialist with a rocket shot who plays with a 7th defenseman who should have retired 3 years ago.

If this organization really does trade Subban, we will regret it for 15 years. We will see him win another couple of Norris trophies and probably one or two Stanley Cups, while we continue our search for a number 1 defenseman and number 1 centre.

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04-07-2014, 10:17 AM
  #330
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I've said it before but I'd love to keep Subban, but I would also love to work a trade around MacKinnon. Man... Patches, Galchy and Mac in the top-6...

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04-07-2014, 10:17 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Without weakening the team?
Yes. Giving PK that much might mean not re-signing Bouillon, or not going after Murray (or even both). Maybe we don't sign Briere, and despite your belief that he's helping us win, he only has 1 GWG (Bourque has 2, Eller has 3) and 25pts, a production pretty easy to replace for a much cheaper price tag. Maybe we bury Bourque in the minors too.

A bunch of things could have been done differently. So to say having PK signed to a bigger deal means no Vanek now (or with him but a weaker roster) is just not true.

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04-07-2014, 10:20 AM
  #332
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This is just ridiculous. Subban has said he wants to be a Hab in the future, is learning french (to please the public), won Norris, lead the team in points, is the #1 D for the future, took the bridge deal to prove himself and ppl still think he isn't someone we need to lock up.

7-8mil/7-8 years ain't even risky imo. He is worth the money no matter what someone may say.

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04-07-2014, 10:27 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
I've said it before but I'd love to keep Subban, but I would also love to work a trade around MacKinnon. Man... Patches, Galchy and Mac in the top-6...
There is no point in even dreaming about this MacKinnon will never move as a RFA. I would love to have Malkin or Crosby here, but that's not going to happen. Some things aren't worth dreaming about.

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04-07-2014, 10:32 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
It's a gamble that the team has to take. Subban could be Doughty or he could be Phaneuf. But even a 70% Subban is more of a benefit than going with Markov, two prospects that still need to be eased in, and filler scrubs to fill the rest of the D corps. For me, the concern is that once Markov goes, Subban's supposed power play effectiveness lessens and he becomes more of a souped-up Jason Garrison than a true PP QB like Markov or Karlsson. But all can be forgiven if he becomes a rock in his own end.
Subban could not be Phaneuf. He is much better. Even in his worst season, PK is still better and he does it scoring 53pts.

How crazy is that? PK has been publicly criticized by Therrien, he still gets benched in the 78th game of the year, most agree he's having his worst career year, despite all of this he was our scoring leader for most of the year and he's currently 2nd. And people are discussing whether or not he's worth 8M? What??..
We just gave 4.5M to an old player that scored 16pts last year and currently has 25, with concussion issues, but we're not down to give 8M to a Norris winner? To a player who in his worst career year still puts up 53pts?..

PK is more than a one trick pony, I'm not sure how you can be concerned that he'd end up more like a Garrison. PK has more than just a booming shot. It's too bad this dumb coaching staff can't figure this out and keep forcing the same strategy on the PP, but that's on them, not PK.

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04-07-2014, 10:34 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Subban could not be Phaneuf. He is much better. Even in his worst season, PK is still better and he does it scoring 53pts.

How crazy is that? PK has been publicly criticized by Therrien, he still gets benched in the 78th game of the year, most agree he's having his worst career year, despite all of this he was our scoring leader for most of the year and he's currently 2nd. And people are discussing whether or not he's worth 8M? What??..
We just gave 4.5M to an old player that scored 16pts last year and currently has 25, with concussion issues, but we're not down to give 8M to a Norris winner? To a player who in his worst career year still puts up 53pts?..
This! What else do ppl want from PK to make them see the greatness he posesses? A french last name?

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04-07-2014, 10:36 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Subban could not be Phaneuf. He is much better. Even in his worst season, PK is still better and he does it scoring 53pts.

How crazy is that? PK has been publicly criticized by Therrien, he still gets benched in the 78th game of the year, most agree he's having his worst career year, despite all of this he was our scoring leader for most of the year and he's currently 2nd. And people are discussing whether or not he's worth 8M? What??..
We just gave 4.5M to an old player that scored 16pts last year and currently has 25, with concussion issues, but we're not down to give 8M to a Norris winner? To a player who in his worst career year still puts up 53pts?..

PK is more than a one trick pony, I'm not sure how you can be concerned that he'd end up more like a Garrison. PK has more than just a booming shot. It's too bad this dumb coaching staff can't figure this out and keep forcing the same strategy on the PP, but that's on them, not PK.
I don't think the problem is the amount in your example. It's the time frame.

We gave 4M to an aging player, but that 4M is only for 2 years. Not a big deal if the signing ends up being a mistake.

Signing Subban will be over the very long term. We cannot easily wash our hands of that sort of mistake, and we could end up being like the Leafs if we make too many of those.

Now, please note that I am NOT saying you are wrong. Or that I disagree. I just bring up other considerations that you seemed to have overlooked.

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04-07-2014, 10:37 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Masuli View Post
This is just ridiculous. Subban has said he wants to be a Hab in the future, is learning french (to please the public), won Norris, lead the team in points, is the #1 D for the future, took the bridge deal to prove himself and ppl still think he isn't someone we need to lock up.

7-8mil/7-8 years ain't even risky imo. He is worth the money no matter what someone may say.
To think some people don't want to sign PK at 8 yet want to get Weber who's 4 years older and who would make ~$200,000 less...

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04-07-2014, 10:38 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
So you believe PK's defensive mistakes (and let's be frank, there has been more than a few) is a product of our overall defensive breakdown?
He's not the same player we saw last year or earlier this season. Yes, I think overall our system sucks and that's contributed to it. I think MT's benching of Subban hasn't worked (that should be obvious to anyone) and I speculate that maybe he's trying to do too much to compensate. Whatever the case he's not the same player.

A guy like that doesn't just forget how to play hockey though. Something else is going on. And when I see the rest of the team playing poorly, it seems obvious to me that the problem is the coach. And that's been reinforced by the ridiculous decisions MT has made all year long.

I don't deny PK hasn't made some really bad plays lately - he has. And I realize that folks might think that I'm being too hard on MT here and that I'm blaming him for Subban's mistakes. But at the end of the day, Subban's play has regressed. So have a lot of players. We aren't playing good hockey despite our record. And I blame MT for that. Its not just one player who isnt' playing well right now.

But people only look at the record, not the play itself...
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
The only think that worries me about PK (and I've always been a huge fan of him) is just to see if he can get things back under control. Get back to simple plays, and let his skill slowly shine out. He managed to do it earlier this year, I am puzzled as to why he cannot do it now.
I think its a combination of a bad system, a coach who's working really hard at trying to erode his confidence and change his game, him trying to do too much, maybe the Olympics and media scrutiny probably didn't help...

I think he needs a new coach and a clean slate. Hopefully he plays like he can in the playoffs. When he's at his best, he's the best in the game.

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04-07-2014, 10:40 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I don't think the problem is the amount in your example. It's the time frame.

We gave 4M to an aging player, but that 4M is only for 2 years. Not a big deal if the signing ends up being a mistake.

Signing Subban will be over the very long term. We cannot easily wash our hands of that sort of mistake, and we could end up being like the Leafs if we make too many of those.

Now, please note that I am NOT saying you are wrong. Or that I disagree. I just bring up other considerations that you seemed to have overlooked.
To get players like PK we NEED to pay big bucks. You can't think that we would get #1 D with 5mil/4-5 years. That's just dreaming.

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04-07-2014, 10:46 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's not the same player we saw last year or earlier this season. Yes, I think overall our system sucks and that's contributed to it. I think MT's benching of Subban hasn't worked (that should be obvious to anyone) and I speculate that maybe he's trying to do too much to compensate. Whatever the case he's not the same player.

A guy like that doesn't just forget how to play hockey though. Something else is going on. And when I see the rest of the team playing poorly, it seems obvious to me that the problem is the coach. And that's been reinforced by the ridiculous decisions MT has made all year long.

I don't deny PK hasn't made some really bad plays lately - he has. And I realize that folks might think that I'm being too hard on MT here and that I'm blaming him for Subban's mistakes. But at the end of the day, Subban's play has regressed. So have a lot of players. We aren't playing good hockey despite our record. And I blame MT for that. Its not just one player who isnt' playing well right now.

But people only look at the record, not the play itself...
I made a joke that many people missed a few days ago.

Q: "How much energy will the Montreal Canadians invest per game?"
A: "Just enough to win, not more, not less"

I understand what you mean when you say we are being outplayed, and yet we still come out with victories. Our players seems to be able to step up and increase their intensity when they face adversity. Even when things look grim (a 0-3 deficit at the start of the 1st), they know they have to clutch and get back into their game.

It's not the perfect system, for sure. But I think it's still foreboding good omens for the future. It means our team is able to shift gear easily between "take it easy" and "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN THIS".

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04-07-2014, 10:49 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I don't think the problem is the amount in your example. It's the time frame.

We gave 4M to an aging player, but that 4M is only for 2 years. Not a big deal if the signing ends up being a mistake.

Signing Subban will be over the very long term. We cannot easily wash our hands of that sort of mistake, and we could end up being like the Leafs if we make too many of those.

Now, please note that I am NOT saying you are wrong. Or that I disagree. I just bring up other considerations that you seemed to have overlooked.
The Briere deal was a mistake the moment it was made. We're talking about an old player, we know what we had. Briere had no secret upside. We knew he was pretty much finished and hope he still has some magic for the POs. That's it. I don't see how this is worth 4M/2y but whatever.
With PK, you know he has the potential to be the best Dman in the NHL. He won the Norris in his 3rd season. You know he can be a great shutdown Dman and just as good offensively, as he's shown under the Martin era, and last season. Yes, he still has things to work on, but overall, you know you have one of the best Dman in the NHL. This year it's been tough, but even at his absolute worse, he's still worth close to that 8M, and with his upside, the risk is very minimal. It's a gamble everybody should make.

I haven't overlooked anything. I think it's pretty freaking stupid to discuss whether or not we should take a risk on our best player while we take risks on smaller ones. Regardless of the length of the deal, PK at his worst is still a very important Dman. That's enough to realize he's worth the pennies. PK is not the player we should be worrying about saving cash with. It's too late for that. We had the option to do it a couple years ago and missed our opportunity.

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04-07-2014, 10:50 AM
  #342
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I have no problem viewing PK as a cornerstone of the team, I do have a problem viewing him as a very top tier defenseman of the league and paying him as such. He has had a problem with making plays that take himself out of the play and it continues to this day. If I pay elite money I want elite play, no bone head stuff, I don't think he's capable of making that adjustment. And before you all scream hater, I'd like to point out I am not alone in my thinking.

He's a wonderful player but his play reminds me a lot of Iafrate, I don't think he can take that next step.
He already has taken the next step. He's shown that he is arguably the best bluleliner in the league.

Is he playing that way right now? No.

But he's easily in that top tier of blueliners and the cap has gone up. We grossly underpaid him for the past two seasons if that makes it a little more palatable for you. At some point you have to pay the guy.
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I don't think the problem is the amount in your example. It's the time frame.

We gave 4M to an aging player, but that 4M is only for 2 years. Not a big deal if the signing ends up being a mistake.

Signing Subban will be over the very long term. We cannot easily wash our hands of that sort of mistake, and we could end up being like the Leafs if we make too many of those.

Now, please note that I am NOT saying you are wrong. Or that I disagree. I just bring up other considerations that you seemed to have overlooked.
Sure, but there's a big difference between signing Clarkson for a ridiculous deal and signing Subban.

And I get what you're saying about 7 or 8 year deals. I'm not a fan of those either. But at the end of the day, we're talking about an elite talent who's prime years are actually ahead of him. This is one of those rare instances where the player's actually worth it.

I'd actually be much more worried about giving long term and big dollars to Vanek. He's older, plays forward and to keep him we'll probably have to give him 7 or 8 years too. In 7 or 8 years that guy could very well be over the hill. Subban will be 32 years old. Think about that for a second. STILL in his prime.

When you have elite players, you don't let them go. You do everything you can to keep them. We shouldn't be asking: Can we afford him? We should be realizing that we can't afford to let him go..

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04-07-2014, 10:54 AM
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I don't think the problem is the amount in your example. It's the time frame.

We gave 4M to an aging player, but that 4M is only for 2 years. Not a big deal if the signing ends up being a mistake.

Signing Subban will be over the very long term. We cannot easily wash our hands of that sort of mistake, and we could end up being like the Leafs if we make too many of those.

Now, please note that I am NOT saying you are wrong. Or that I disagree. I just bring up other considerations that you seemed to have overlooked.
What mistake? The kid is 24 years old. He hasn't hit his prime. I think it is naive to think he will not get better and even worse to think at his current rate (the last 2 seasons), he isn't already worth 8 M a year. If he doesn't progress an iota, he is still one of the top D men in the NHL. 8 M in 8 years will be nothing. (Look at Vaneks deal 7 years ago, we were all like OMG so much money, now it's almost normal a player has a 7M caphit, who puts up 40 goal years)

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04-07-2014, 11:21 AM
  #344
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The only people who know what motivates Pk is his coaching staff. This all comes down to what the peeps think of the coaching and management staff currently in place. In the end we're left with only two scenarios. PK signs big here or he gets traded and signs big elsewhere. Kinda obvious, I know but sometimes people need to keep that in mind. I'm sure Bergevin has his mind made up by now. So far it's hard to dislike MB.

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04-07-2014, 11:32 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I made a joke that many people missed a few days ago.

Q: "How much energy will the Montreal Canadians invest per game?"
A: "Just enough to win, not more, not less"

I understand what you mean when you say we are being outplayed, and yet we still come out with victories. Our players seems to be able to step up and increase their intensity when they face adversity. Even when things look grim (a 0-3 deficit at the start of the 1st), they know they have to clutch and get back into their game.

It's not the perfect system, for sure. But I think it's still foreboding good omens for the future. It means our team is able to shift gear easily between "take it easy" and "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN THIS".
That's what Leaf fans have said for years. And I don't say that to be a smartass dude, I say it because it's true.

The Leafs have really been the posterchild for Advanced Stats. They've gotten great goaltending and timely scoring. And for a long time it seemed to work. But at the end of the day, they fall apart.

It's the same thing with us. We've got better D and better goaltending but that's about it. We're consistently outplayed because our system is broken.

It's a nice story to say "we can rise up when we have to" but its a bit of a fairy tail. Yes, we've gotten away with it this season because Price has been arguably the best goalie in the league. But at the end of the day, we haven't played well. And that goes for PK too.

Sad thing is, this roster is capable of so much more. Despite a lack of size up front and some obvious holes, we really do have a good team. But we sabatoge ourselves by playing Murray and Cube over Tinordi and Beaulieu and then - even worse - pairing them with Subban. Our problem (and PK's problem) is the coach.

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04-07-2014, 11:34 AM
  #346
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The only people who know what motivates Pk is his coaching staff. This all comes down to what the peeps think of the coaching and management staff currently in place. In the end we're left with only two scenarios. PK signs big here or he gets traded and signs big elsewhere. Kinda obvious, I know but sometimes people need to keep that in mind. I'm sure Bergevin has his mind made up by now. So far it's hard to dislike MB.
Well, that doesn't really seem to be the case...

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04-07-2014, 11:40 AM
  #347
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And if we had accepted it, we wouldn't have had the space to acquire Vanek.
We would if we didn't sign Briere

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04-07-2014, 11:42 AM
  #348
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We would if we didn't sign Briere
Ex-post facto argumentation.

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04-07-2014, 11:48 AM
  #349
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He's still the same player he was in juniors. He has better offensive skill, but he still makes those dumb junior level plays that you don't see any other elite D's around the league do. It's the frequency with which he does them that's annoying. You can expect those mistakes once every few games, but he does them game in, game out.

It's why the coaching staff continues to trust Markov more than Subban. It's why the two best coaches in the league had 3 guys ahead on him on the right side. 6.75M - 7.25M /yr for 8 years is a fine range for him. His impact on the game is lesser than Markov's in his prime, so this is a fair offer.

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04-07-2014, 11:52 AM
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
That's what Leaf fans have said for years. And I don't say that to be a smartass dude, I say it because it's true.

The Leafs have really been the posterchild for Advanced Stats. They've gotten great goaltending and timely scoring. And for a long time it seemed to work. But at the end of the day, they fall apart.

It's the same thing with us. We've got better D and better goaltending but that's about it. We're consistently outplayed because our system is broken.

It's a nice story to say "we can rise up when we have to" but its a bit of a fairy tail. Yes, we've gotten away with it this season because Price has been arguably the best goalie in the league. But at the end of the day, we haven't played well. And that goes for PK too.

Sad thing is, this roster is capable of so much more. Despite a lack of size up front and some obvious holes, we really do have a good team. But we sabatoge ourselves by playing Murray and Cube over Tinordi and Beaulieu and then - even worse - pairing them with Subban. Our problem (and PK's problem) is the coach.
Just wait for the playoffs, when anything goes is in effect. No way we find ways of scoring down 0-3 when our players get pulled to the ground each time on a dump in.

A lot of my friends keep talking about the habs winning and that my criticism is unwarranted on Therrien. I hate how our society thinks that criticizing someone, in power, or winning, is something that shouldn't happen... I will speak my mind all the time, and the way Therrien is handling Subban makes me very anxious. If Subban doesn't play 30 minutes in game 1, I want Bergevin to fire Therrien on the bench.

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