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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-08-2014, 08:53 AM
  #451
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Problem with this argument is that Subban won the Norris last year with the same coach pretty much treating him the same way.
Except that it wasn't the same thing at all.

Last season we had a completely different system and we weren't pairing PK with sub NHL scrubs like we are now. And PK was actually playing even better at the start of this season.

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04-08-2014, 08:57 AM
  #452
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So let me understand something here.

PK isn't worth the money because he still makes the same mistakes etc. If he doesn't sign what MB offers him he's hurting the team...
Yet let's sign a 30 year old Vanek, to a mega deal.

Logic.

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04-08-2014, 09:10 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Problem with this argument is that Subban won the Norris last year with the same coach pretty much treating him the same way.
I'm reminded of an article I read in the news a number of years ago. The article was about an 87 year old woman divorcing her 91 year old husband after being married more than 60 years.

The judge at the divorce hearing asked the woman the obvious question: "Why after being married for over 60 years to this man would you decide now you want a divorce?"

The woman's response? "Enough is enough".

I think maybe Subban might be there now.

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04-08-2014, 09:40 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Some people really need to see what this team looks like without PK. He's never hurt so people don't know how bad things could be. That counts for something. His ability to stay healthy.

Some of us argued that the bridge deal was dumb and would come back to haunt us and the same people who disagreed and sided with MB are the same people siding with MB now. Company men through and through. PK is the only hab that has had to prove himself. The coach is also hardest on him. Very strange
No one want PK gone, not sure where that comes from. Just because some of us try to see both sides of the issue doesn't make us Subban haters. I love the persona and the player but I am not blinded into thinking he doesn't have gaps in his game. As Melnyk said yesterday - he's a very good player that can be a superstar. But he's not there yet.

As for PK being the only Hab that has to prove himself, you have a very, very short memory. Price is three years older and had all to prove at the start of this season. MT was not very kind after the Sens series was he....

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04-08-2014, 09:42 AM
  #455
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Except that it wasn't the same thing at all.

Last season we had a completely different system and we weren't pairing PK with sub NHL scrubs like we are now. And PK was actually playing even better at the start of this season.
Really?? Subban played with Markov and Gorges for most of this season, until Gorges got hurt.

If Subban is so dominating, why did his play suffer since Markov has been removed from his pairing? Markov's play has remained constant....

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04-08-2014, 10:02 AM
  #456
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Really?? Subban played with Markov and Gorges for most of this season, until Gorges got hurt.

If Subban is so dominating, why did his play suffer since Markov has been removed from his pairing? Markov's play has remained constant....
He's played with Murray and Bouillion to a tune of 8 times more than Markov has. That's a big reason we've seen his play fall off. Markov hasn't been saddled with that kind of albatross.

Not a coincidence that Subban's play has fallen off since Gorges went down. And our idiot coach doesn't want to play him with Beaulieu or Tinordi. But that's MT for you.

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04-08-2014, 10:13 AM
  #457
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I would love to see a Subban Beaulieu pairing.

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04-08-2014, 10:15 AM
  #458
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I would love to see a Subban Beaulieu pairing.
We got to witness that for a little while. I wonder if it could still work.

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04-08-2014, 10:16 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I would love to see a Subban Beaulieu pairing.
I think that would be an amazing combo if they were given time to get used to each other. Some would say that Beaulieu isn't ready for prime time minutes that Subban plays (or at least is SUPPOSED to play) but I still think it would be an amazing pair.

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04-08-2014, 10:17 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I would love to see a Subban Beaulieu pairing.
They could've put Emelin with him there too and had him on the left side. That would've made sense for both players.

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04-08-2014, 10:36 AM
  #461
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No one want PK gone, not sure where that comes from. Just because some of us try to see both sides of the issue doesn't make us Subban haters. I love the persona and the player but I am not blinded into thinking he doesn't have gaps in his game.
Find me a player not named Bobby Orr who doesn't have a "gap in his game" of some sort.

I guess in a way it's a backhanded compliment for PK; he does so many things on the ice so well so often that people just take them for granted. When he does make a mistake it tends to produce the "What the hell?" reaction because it's so unexpected. Markov has a speedy forward blow clean by him and people just shrug it off, "Oh well, Markov's older & slower now, these things happen." I don't know what the heck Bouillon's excuses are for the strings of errors he makes in almost every game. Murray barely does anything right to begin with.

PK seems to be the only player on the roster held to this "Make no mistakes ever!" standard. It's impossible, it's damned unfair, and it's stupid coaching.

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04-08-2014, 10:37 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They could've put Emelin with him there too and had him on the left side. That would've made sense for both players.
I agree, but that would have necessitated Therrien playing Emelin on his "natural" (ie. left) side. I can't imagine Therrien even considering such a thing.

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04-08-2014, 10:40 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Problem with this argument is that Subban won the Norris last year with the same coach pretty much treating him the same way.
Last year was a different style, but still he was paired up with Bouillon to start the year, he got limited ice time, was even placed on the 2nd PP wave. It wasn't until Diaz got injured that Therrien started using him more. People were questioning Therrien on this as it made no sense. But we also gave him the benefit of the doubt seeing how he was putting in place a new system with no training camp. PK ends up winning the Norris.
This year PK starts the year stepping up his game more so than last year. It's to the point where there's an actual discussion about him being the best in the NHL.
What he was doing early in the year was just incredible. Despite this, Therrien pins losses on him. When's the last time you even saw this? A coach blaming ONE player for a complete loss? He constantly pointed out PK publicly, and how did that turn out??
PK is now arguably having his worse season. Great strategy I must say..

Vinny won the cup with Tortorella, that didn't stop him from completely hating the guy.

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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
No one want PK gone, not sure where that comes from. Just because some of us try to see both sides of the issue doesn't make us Subban haters. I love the persona and the player but I am not blinded into thinking he doesn't have gaps in his game. As Melnyk said yesterday - he's a very good player that can be a superstar. But he's not there yet.

As for PK being the only Hab that has to prove himself, you have a very, very short memory. Price is three years older and had all to prove at the start of this season. MT was not very kind after the Sens series was he....
PK is already a superstar. He's having a bad year that's all. It happens to them. Ovechkin and Malkin have had bad years, that doesn't mean they aren't superstars. And btw, a bad year for them is a good for year for most of the NHLers.
But anyways, it's a bit pointless to discuss superstardom, everybody can have a different definition of it.

As for Price, remind me of the harsh words Therrien had for him because I certainly don't remember them. I recall him saying they got bad luck with injuries, and how the players played well, that he was impressed with the kids. I don't remember him bashing Price at all.
But that's all pretty irrelevant, Price did not win the Vezina. PK won the Norris. To think a Norris winner still needs to prove himself is pretty freaking stupid. It doesn't mean he's perfect, still room for improvement (and he did start the year stronger than last season) but things to prove? No.

Therrien has not been as harsh on any player as he's been with PK. Really, it's obvious to anybody that's followed this team with close attention.

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04-08-2014, 10:49 AM
  #464
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The posters who are all up in Southernhabs grille are fighting a 2 year old war to "be right" in their criticism of Bergevin's dealings with Subban in the last round. "We ripped him off", "he was screwed", "lowballed", all the language of those who have an axe to grind and whose only source of enlightenment is a sourceless estimate from Bob Mckenzie that was repeated in the mediotsphere. Fine. Carry on soldiers in your endless fight to prove poor PK has been exploited.

Fast forward and we now have context, the GM has had harmonious negotiations with Pacioretty, Price, Desharnais, Emelin and within a reasonable margin came up with pretty good valuations for all. Credibility earned.

The only difficulty he seems to have is dealings with PK. Now, perhaps for a second time.

PK wants to be paid what he's worth, and we believe him when he says it because he has a nice smile and we like him. Without a hint of how he values himself any delay in signing him is assumed to be rooted in a Bergevin/Therrien conspiracy against him. mkay.

One of the vocal posters in this fight has valued him at $9M on this very board. I doubt that even PK values himself that highly but if he does demand this I'd urge Bergevin to help PK find it somewhere else. Acrimony free, in the best interests of everyone.

Having said that I believe a deal will get done because I believe all parties when they say they want to get a deal done.

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04-08-2014, 10:57 AM
  #465
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Lol 9 million!

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04-08-2014, 11:08 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The posters who are all up in Southernhabs grille are fighting a 2 year old war to "be right" in their criticism of Bergevin's dealings with Subban in the last round. "We ripped him off", "he was screwed", "lowballed", all the language of those who have an axe to grind and whose only source of enlightenment is a sourceless estimate from Bob Mckenzie that was repeated in the mediotsphere. Fine. Carry on soldiers in your endless fight to prove poor PK has been exploited.
We did rip him off. We did exploit him. This shouldn't be hard for anyone to see.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Fast forward and we now have context, the GM has had harmonious negotiations with Pacioretty, Price, Desharnais, Emelin and within a reasonable margin came up with pretty good valuations for all. Credibility earned.

The only difficulty he seems to have is dealings with PK. Now, perhaps for a second time.
And why is that? All we had to do was offer up 5 x 5. Very reasonable. Right thing to do. Not sure why this was a problem for us.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
PK wants to be paid what he's worth, and we believe him when he says it because he has a nice smile and we like him. Without a hint of how he values himself any delay in signing him is assumed to be rooted in a Bergevin/Therrien conspiracy against him. mkay.

One of the vocal posters in this fight has valued him at $9M on this very board. I doubt that even PK values himself that highly but if he does demand this I'd urge Bergevin to help PK find it somewhere else. Acrimony free, in the best interests of everyone.

Having said that I believe a deal will get done because I believe all parties when they say they want to get a deal done.
He's worth 9m for sure. Any team in the league would pay him this number.

Should it be the starting point? Hell no. And I don't think he'll demand it. But would he be worth that amount? Without a doubt he is. Esp with the cap continuing to go up. 24 year old who's already got a Norris. You'd have to be brain dead not to give him this if that's what it took.

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04-08-2014, 11:08 AM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The posters who are all up in Southernhabs grille are fighting a 2 year old war to "be right" in their criticism of Bergevin's dealings with Subban in the last round. "We ripped him off", "he was screwed", "lowballed", all the language of those who have an axe to grind and whose only source of enlightenment is a sourceless estimate from Bob Mckenzie that was repeated in the mediotsphere. Fine. Carry on soldiers in your endless fight to prove poor PK has been exploited.

Fast forward and we now have context, the GM has had harmonious negotiations with Pacioretty, Price, Desharnais, Emelin and within a reasonable margin came up with pretty good valuations for all. Credibility earned.

The only difficulty he seems to have is dealings with PK. Now, perhaps for a second time.

PK wants to be paid what he's worth, and we believe him when he says it because he has a nice smile and we like him. Without a hint of how he values himself any delay in signing him is assumed to be rooted in a Bergevin/Therrien conspiracy against him. mkay.

One of the vocal posters in this fight has valued him at $9M on this very board. I doubt that even PK values himself that highly but if he does demand this I'd urge Bergevin to help PK find it somewhere else. Acrimony free, in the best interests of everyone.

Having said that I believe a deal will get done because I believe all parties when they say they want to get a deal done.
SouthernHab last negotiations called PK a selfish and greedy person without having any information as to what his demands actually were. That was foolish of him. He flat out admitted that he would feel the same way if PK-MB can't reach an agreement, again, without knowing anything about the negotiations.

There is no conspiracy against him. It's clear from the way they have discussed and used PK that they don't believe he's as good as many others feel. Well maybe that's bad wording but it's clear they have issues with him.

As for the negotiations with the other players. None of the guys you mentioned were coming off trophy winning years, or finishing top 5 in the NHL scoring in back to back years (including a top place finish).

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04-08-2014, 11:12 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
SouthernHab last negotiations called PK a selfish and greedy person without having any information as to what his demands actually were. That was foolish of him. He flat out admitted that he would feel the same way if PK-MB can't reach an agreement, again, without knowing anything about the negotiations.

There is no conspiracy against him. It's clear from the way they have discussed and used PK that they don't believe he's as good as many others feel. Well maybe that's bad wording but it's clear they have issues with him.

As for the negotiations with the other players. None of the guys you mentioned were coming off trophy winning years, or finishing top 5 in the NHL.
There were pundits last time around talking about him being worth Michael Del Zotto numbers. Not sure what those folks were smoking but that was the case. Its not conspiracy that made these guys think that 5 mil was too much, it was incompetence.

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04-08-2014, 11:16 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The posters who are all up in Southernhabs grille are fighting a 2 year old war to "be right" in their criticism of Bergevin's dealings with Subban in the last round. "We ripped him off", "he was screwed", "lowballed", all the language of those who have an axe to grind and whose only source of enlightenment is a sourceless estimate from Bob Mckenzie that was repeated in the mediotsphere. Fine. Carry on soldiers in your endless fight to prove poor PK has been exploited.

Fast forward and we now have context, the GM has had harmonious negotiations with Pacioretty, Price, Desharnais, Emelin and within a reasonable margin came up with pretty good valuations for all. Credibility earned.

The only difficulty he seems to have is dealings with PK. Now, perhaps for a second time.

PK wants to be paid what he's worth, and we believe him when he says it because he has a nice smile and we like him. Without a hint of how he values himself any delay in signing him is assumed to be rooted in a Bergevin/Therrien conspiracy against him. mkay.

One of the vocal posters in this fight has valued him at $9M on this very board. I doubt that even PK values himself that highly but if he does demand this I'd urge Bergevin to help PK find it somewhere else. Acrimony free, in the best interests of everyone.

Having said that I believe a deal will get done because I believe all parties when they say they want to get a deal done.
Bergevin did rip off PK and it was wrong. 2 years ago the best young players all got around the $5 million or $6 million per year contract and PK deserved to be paid that amount, whether it was a 2 year, 3 year or 8 year deal. Obviously the longer the contract went the more he deserved to get paid.

If Bergevin wanted to sign PK to a 2 year I can live with that but PK deserved to be paid more per year because other teams would of paid him more then that if he was on their team instead of ours. That's what decides what he's worth. The market, not a GM who decides to lowball a guy.

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04-08-2014, 11:19 AM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
SouthernHab last negotiations called PK a selfish and greedy person without having any information as to what his demands actually were. That was foolish of him. He flat out admitted that he would feel the same way if PK-MB can't reach an agreement, again, without knowing anything about the negotiations.

There is no conspiracy against him. It's clear from the way they have discussed and used PK that they don't believe he's as good as many others feel. Well maybe that's bad wording but it's clear they have issues with him.

As for the negotiations with the other players. None of the guys you mentioned were coming off trophy winning years, or finishing top 5 in the NHL scoring in back to back years (including a top place finish).
Kriss. When the regular season starts and the Habs are playing games that count in the standings and PK Subban is sitting at home because he is holding out, that is putting his "self-interests" ahead of the team.

That is the core meaning of the word selfish. Add foolish and short-sighted to that description as well since he folded shortly after watching the Habs start the season winning games.

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04-08-2014, 11:23 AM
  #471
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Kriss. When the regular season starts and the Habs are playing games that count in the standings and PK Subban is sitting at home because he is holding out, that is putting his "self-interests" ahead of the team.

That is the core meaning of the word selfish. Add foolish and short-sighted to that description as well since he folded shortly after watching the Habs start the season winning games.
Your posts are getting progressively ridiculous.

So if say, Steve Stamkos sits out because his team offers only 2mil per year he's "selfish?"

GTFO with this crap.

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04-08-2014, 11:25 AM
  #472
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I would have held out all season long if I had been Subban and presented with that ridiculous bridge contract. To this day I can't believe he took that.

Now does that give us hope that he might be that selfless and loyal again this time? Or the contrary? Most are pegging "contrary".

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04-08-2014, 11:28 AM
  #473
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I would have held out all season long if I had been Subban and presented with that ridiculous bridge contract. To this day I can't believe he took that.

Now does that give us hope that he might be that selfless and loyal again this time? Or the contrary? Most are pegging "contrary".
In most cases, something like this would result in a trade. I totally agree with you, its amazing that he took the deal.

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04-08-2014, 11:28 AM
  #474
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I would have held out all season long if I had been Subban and presented with that ridiculous bridge contract. To this day I can't believe he took that.

Now does that give us hope that he might be that selfless and loyal again this time? Or the contrary? Most are pegging "contrary".
Hmm...IMO, he should be sending the Habs a thank you card. Cause now he'll be making even more money than had he signed for 5 or 6 years last year.

Signing that bridge contract was the best thing for him to do for him personally. Now he's in the driver's seat

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04-08-2014, 11:34 AM
  #475
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Hmm...IMO, he should be sending the Habs a thank you card. Cause now he'll be making even more money than had he signed for 5 or 6 years last year.

Signing that bridge contract was the best thing for him to do for him personally. Now he's in the driver's seat
And this is the exact argument, as a Habs fan, that I think MB made a huge mistake with his bridge contract. I personally don't give a **** how much money a player makes. I understand that they deserve to be paid what they feel they deserve/management believes they deserve. But in the end, you need to think what is best for the franchise, from both sides. I don't understand how MB didn't see Subban as being worth 5 M a year. Before MB/Subban agreed on the bridge contract, I did some really loose calculations, and my conclusions were that Subban was already worth 4.5 M in terms of TOI, points, goals, assist from the Habs horrible season. To not think you would get your moneys worth at 5 M a year for X years, that is BAD ASSET MANAGEMENT.

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