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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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Old
03-30-2014, 09:45 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Cheechoo is a 50 goal scorer right?

Time doesn't play a factor I guess. Nor does the fact DD never had a 39 point season but Plekanec did. Look at recent and look at average.
using your logic, he is.

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03-30-2014, 09:46 PM
  #277
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make it 60 points if you want, doesnt change much... 60 pts for 3.5Mil, chemistry with Patches, local talent to boot...

why in hell would you want to replace/upgrade that ?

I mean, spend on wingers instead, no ? give him a great RW and he'll keep producing, even better as we'll have a talented Galchenyuk on the second ?

for some odd reason, YOU want him replaced ? you keep defending him and yet, you want him replaced as soon as someone a little better comes up ?

you got to be kidding...
Why wouldn't you want to upgrade? You always want to make the team better.

I don't want to throw him away for free though. Also haven't seen upgrade yet.

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03-30-2014, 09:48 PM
  #278
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Why wouldn't you want to upgrade? You always want to make the team better.

I don't want to throw him away for free though.
priorities : a great #1 C in DD, a solid upcoming C on the 2nd... both on the cheap ? it would be pretty stupid on MB part to waste time trying to upgrade on it... upgrade on wings where we only have Paches and Gallagher as top 6 for next season, THAT is a priority


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03-30-2014, 09:49 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
We should still separate the two stats. According to your previous figure of 1.6 faceoff per game ( I got 0.61 ES offensive zone faceoff per game - Plek as played 75 games and DD 73 games), that would mean that DD has approximately 2 faceoffs per 3 games more in the offensive zone than Plekanec and one more PP start per game than Plekanec. That's not egregious.
Behind the net is always delayed in terms of games played so if you use that for the raw faceoff data you have to use the GP from there as well (Plek at 67 and DD at 64). That might explain the number difference.

If you look at a single game then one or two faceoffs doesn't matter much, but over the course of a season it adds up.

And really if it's not that big a deal then you should be in favour of taking some faceoffs away from DD and giving them to Plekanec. After all if they don't amount too much then it won't hurt DD's production but even a lucky goal could get Plekanec going on a hot streak which would be great for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
It's funny how Pacioretty started scoring when playing with DD in the AHL, then again scoring 30 and now 35 with DD in the NHL.

Vanek with pleks didn't do much... Vanek with DD has been great. It's pretty clear that DD is the better playmaker out of our centers. Pleks is clearly the better overall center, but that just makes him more important to have in a shutdown/secondary scoring role.

I'm not trying to say that DD is the only reason Patches has been scoring, but give credit where it's due. The guy just helps his scoring wingers score goals.

Oh and as for Eller... well.. I don't need to go into that... He is not the same player he was last year even though he's been playing with Chuckie for most of the season.
Pacioretty started scoring in the NHL with Gomez as his center.

2 games is not enough to say Vanek/Plek doesn't work especially since even with Vanek they still played a shutdown role. It wasn't DD that got Vanek scoring it was the coaching using him in an offensive role instead of a defensive one.

Eller hasn't spent most of his time with Galchenyuk this season he's under 50% of his ES time with him.

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03-30-2014, 09:52 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
using your logic, he is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
ok, the guy who DID hit 69 and 70 is a 50/60 points C...

and the guy who hit 60 once, is a 50/60 points C...

interesting.
Yes...MY logic...

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03-30-2014, 09:56 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Plekanec made 45 assists like 4 years ago. Still, Plekanec has good offensive instincts but I don't think Plekanec is really a 70 point center. He hit 69 and 70 points 6 and 4 years ago respectively. He also hit 39 points between that big year, way before a guy like DD was playing for the habs.

I get that in DD's best season he managed 44 assists but he's played 1 full 82 game season in his career. His best is actually his only.
Well it was 4 years ago that he was used in a real offensive role.

Fine if you don't like looking at their best season then fine. DD averages 36 assists a season in his career. Plekanec averages 32. And if we look at the quality of their wingers over their respective careers Desharnais has gotten massively better ones.

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03-30-2014, 10:00 PM
  #282
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Oops wrong thread. =x

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03-30-2014, 10:05 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
priorities : a great #1 C in DD, a solid upcoming C on the 2nd... both on the cheap ? it would be pretty stupid on MB part to waste time trying to upgrade on it... upgrade on wings where we only have Paches and Gallagher as top 6 for next season, THAT is a priority
So DD is a GREAT #1C now? Alright...

Honestly, I think wings is the priority but if you can upgrade DD you do it. That simple.

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03-30-2014, 10:10 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well it was 4 years ago that he was used in a real offensive role.

Fine if you don't like looking at their best season then fine. DD averages 36 assists a season in his career. Plekanec averages 32. And if we look at the quality of their wingers over their respective careers Desharnais has gotten massively better ones.
I never said Plekanec wasn't the better player. I just said it's kind of loaded when DD's best season is his only season.

Using optimization techniques Plekanec will always play selke type minutes. If we can get quality wing depth then he'll have better wingers to play with. I don't mind if he plays with Vanek at all or wtv. I actually thought Vanek was going to be there when he came.

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03-30-2014, 10:13 PM
  #285
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I'm not sold on this line just yet. When push came to shove vs Boston, two thirds of the line went MIA.
Boston pretty much shut down all of our lines.

They are the best defensive team in the League.

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03-30-2014, 10:14 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
make it 60 points if you want, doesnt change much... 60 pts for 3.5Mil, chemistry with Patches, local talent to boot...

why in hell would you want to replace/upgrade that ?

I mean, spend on wingers instead, no ? give him a great RW and he'll keep producing, even better as we'll have a talented Galchenyuk on the second ?

for some odd reason, YOU want him replaced ? you keep defending him and yet, you want him replaced as soon as someone a little better comes up ?

you got to be kidding...
You're arguing just to argue. Better players can only supplant other players if they exist. Right now, there is no one better on our team than Desharnais at being a pure playmaker. When/if we get a superior pure offensive center, Desharnais will be pushed down. But right now, no such player exists. Yes, Plekanec is a much better overall hockey player than DD, but Pleks thrives on the tough matchups and is irreplaceable in his two-way role. We all hope Galchenyuk becomes a top center, but he's not there yet.

No matter how you spin it, Desharnais has been producing very well for the last four months. There is no indication he'll stop producing. Also, no matter how you spin it, our other centers haven't been as effective (other than Plekanec, who has a different job). Assuming you enjoy watching Pacioretty and Vanek convert passes into goals, who do you think is better qualified to make those passes?

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:19 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
-Pacioretty is our only decent left winger other than Galchenyuk
-Galchenyuk has proven success as a left winger
-DD never played wing in pro hockey
-DD is small and weak in board battles

Pretty simple, straightforward stuff. Even Therrien doesn't need it explained to him.



We're 3rd in the East for crying out loud. What the **** are you complaining about. We struggled at times, yes, but tell me we should be competing with the Bruins/Penguins or any of the top teams in the West.

Also, since I've been reading this board, the one constant has been your criticism of our coaches/management. They never catch a break. We would have Scotty Bowman and Sam Pollock and you would still complain and tell us how they are ****ing up.



See above.



You're telling me that the notion of chemistry between players in hockey is ******** ?
Very good post.

Chemistry is very very real. Vanek struggled with Pleks and is flourishing with DD and Max.

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03-30-2014, 10:21 PM
  #288
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DD is just not the issue right now. He'll continue not being the issue until his line stops producing... If there's room for short-term improvement on the team, it's to be found elsewhere than on his line.

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03-30-2014, 10:23 PM
  #289
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DD is just not the issue right now. He'll continue not being the issue until his line stops producing... If there's room for short-term improvement on the team, it's to be found elsewhere than on his line.
The biggest issue is that even though the EGG line was reunited for a full game, they are not scoring points.

We need the Gally's to step up their games, regardless of whether Pleks or Eller is centering them.

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03-30-2014, 10:25 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
You're arguing just to argue. Better players can only supplant other players if they exist. Right now, there is no one better on our team than Desharnais at being a pure playmaker. When/if we get a superior pure offensive center, Desharnais will be pushed down. But right now, no such player exists. Yes, Plekanec is a much better overall hockey player than DD, but Pleks thrives on the tough matchups and is irreplaceable in his two-way role. We all hope Galchenyuk becomes a top center, but he's not there yet.

No matter how you spin it, Desharnais has been producing very well for the last four months. There is no indication he'll stop producing. Also, no matter how you spin it, our other centers haven't been as effective (other than Plekanec, who has a different job). Assuming you enjoy watching Pacioretty and Vanek convert passes into goals, who do you think is better qualified to make those passes?
Why not insert DB into the arguement? Our Point Per Game Proven PO Performer.
If DD went down tomorrow would he not be a logical replacement?
Would he not and does he not have the skillset to produce with those wingers?
My bet would be yes he does.


Last edited by Rapala: 03-30-2014 at 10:30 PM.
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Old
03-30-2014, 10:31 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
You're arguing just to argue. Better players can only supplant other players if they exist. Right now, there is no one better on our team than Desharnais at being a pure playmaker. When/if we get a superior pure offensive center, Desharnais will be pushed down. But right now, no such player exists. Yes, Plekanec is a much better overall hockey player than DD, but Pleks thrives on the tough matchups and is irreplaceable in his two-way role. We all hope Galchenyuk becomes a top center, but he's not there yet.

No matter how you spin it, Desharnais has been producing very well for the last four months. There is no indication he'll stop producing. Also, no matter how you spin it, our other centers haven't been as effective (other than Plekanec, who has a different job). Assuming you enjoy watching Pacioretty and Vanek convert passes into goals, who do you think is better qualified to make those passes?
sure, put it that way... but reality is, DD is good at passing ONLY... there's no two way play in his game, no defense, no hitting, not much shooting, no physicality...


actually, it's debatable who's the best passer on this line...

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03-30-2014, 10:34 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The biggest issue is that even though the EGG line was reunited for a full game, they are not scoring points.

We need the Gally's to step up their games, regardless of whether Pleks or Eller is centering them.
they went from sheltering to toughest matchups on the team.... give em a break.

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03-30-2014, 10:37 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
sure, put it that way... but reality is, DD is good at passing ONLY... there's no two way play in his game, no defense, no hitting, not much shooting, no physicality...


actually, it's debatable who's the best passer on this line...
DD almost has as many goals as Gallagher. 5 behind pleky and tied with gionta...

Hitting and physicality? Did you run out of words so tried to play it off as different things?

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03-30-2014, 10:40 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Even if we stick to ES starts it's 0.77 more for Desharnais which is closer to an extra faceoff every game then a faceoff every two games like you claimed.

But PP should count for the simple reason that scoring chances are generated when you have possession in the o-zone. A faceoff gives you a 50/50 chance at possession. Starting from your own zone will give you a much smaller chance at having possession in the zone even on the PP.
We must be looking at different numbers. I'm only seeing 38 more offensive zonezone face-offs for Desharnais over Plekanec at even strength. 285 to 247.

Comes out to about 0.6 extra zone starts per game.

And that's went up significantly since we acquired Vanek. It as about 0.5 a few weeks ago.

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03-30-2014, 10:40 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
DD almost has as many goals as Gallagher. 5 behind pleky and tied with gionta...

Hitting and physicality? Did you run out of words so tried to play it off as different things?
you mean the two guys who spent most of their season together as a shutdown duo ?


really, it's damn nice to know DD can score (almost) at the same pace as shutdown guys...

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03-30-2014, 10:44 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I agree with you but add 3-4-5 games if you wish. The result is still pretty good isn't it?

Pacioretty is awesome. He's a great player and a much better player than DD. He helps DD and in some cases DD helps him. They have chemistry which works but obviously Pacioretty can do more on his own.

Now, given that, when Plekanec hit his good seasons, he had an offensive winger on his side. This guy called Kovalev. Do you think it's just a coincidence Kovalev hits 84 points and Plekanec breaks out offensive in what is now his 2nd best offensive season and highest goal output of his career? Sounds familiar doesn't it?

His 70 point season was legit though, he was the leading scorer and even if cammalleri had a good pace going on he wasn't there all year so Plekanec really had to do it on his own in many cases. Now, how many times did Plekanec repeat that performance? Never. Sometimes you can do it on your own and sometimes you need good wingers. It's no surprise Plekanec's output increased with the young wingers on his side. Same for DD, getting quality wingers helps.
That's just it with one high end goal scorer and one average goal scorer Plekanec was putting up 69 and 70 points seasons. Desharnais has always had two high end goal scorers and has 60 points. So how can we say Desharnais is the better offensive player?

So Plekanec was unable to repeat his big season except he did do it a second time. He also led the team in scoring twice since his first big season. What was he supposed to do in 2011-2012, he spent half the season with Bourque and Moen. And he was still within 8 points of DD who had two 30 goal scorers flanking him. How many more points would he have gotten if he had Pacioretty/Cole? I'm betting it's more than 8.

And even when Plekanec was putting up 69 and 70 points he didn't have as offensive a role as Desharnais does. He was still counted on to play tough minutes, but they were balanced by lots of offensive minutes as well. That's where Pleks is optimized when he gets lots of defensive and offensive minutes.

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03-30-2014, 10:49 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Hawkguy View Post
We must be looking at different numbers. I'm only seeing 38 more offensive zonezone face-offs for Desharnais over Plekanec at even strength. 285 to 247.

Comes out to about 0.6 extra zone starts per game.

And that's went up significantly since we acquired Vanek. It as about 0.5 a few weeks ago.
Those are the right numbers but they haven't played the same number of games.

DD's 285 faceoffs came in 64 games so 4.453 a game
Plek's 247 came in 67 games so 3.687

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03-30-2014, 10:49 PM
  #298
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you mean the two guys who spent most of their season together as a shutdown duo ?


really, it's damn nice to know DD can score (almost) at the same pace as shutdown guys...
Gallagher was a shutdown player? New to me. Funny how you ignored him.

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03-30-2014, 10:59 PM
  #299
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Gallagher was a shutdown player? New to me. Funny how you ignored him.
the guy that took about 15/20 games to find his groove once put with DD ? nope, didnt ignore him... I just dont have the same expectations from 19 or 20 years old sophomores...

besides, Gallagher is scoring at a much lower pace than last season...


but I guess I forgot the kid as much as you forgot Briere, who only has 2 less goals...



what's with the Bull anyway, trying to make DD look like a good goal scorer or something ?

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03-30-2014, 11:05 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the guy that took about 15/20 games to find his groove once put with DD ? nope, didnt ignore him... I just dont have the same expectations from 19 or 20 years old sophomores...

besides, Gallagher is scoring at a much lower pace than last season...


but I guess I forgot the kid as much as you forgot Briere, who only has 2 less goals...



what's with the Bull anyway, trying to make DD look like a good goal scorer or something ?
Nah, he's in the average. The 2nd tier of the team really.

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