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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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04-04-2014, 06:13 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post

DD#1C is not in the league's top 30 means every team has someone better. But he centers two league top-12 goalscorers...
False. Vanek is not here since the start of the season but only since the trade deadline. Since Vanek is on the Desharnais line, i am pretty sure Desharnais is a top 30 center in points.


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04-04-2014, 06:22 AM
  #702
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False. Vanek is not here since the start of the season but only since the trade deadline. Since Vanek is on the Desharnais line, i am pretty sure Desharnais is a top 30 center in points.
was still playing with Patches before... and Gallagher was (after a while) doing very well on his line... it's not like Vanek replaced Weise or Moen you know...

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04-04-2014, 06:22 AM
  #703
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Should hockey players be compared with other hockey players who are doing different hockey stuff, or should they be compared with other hockey players who are doing the same hockey stuff?

DD#1C is not in the league's top 30 means every team has someone better. But he centers two league top-12 goalscorers...
Regardless of roles and linemates, you can't honestly say Eller is playing well in any role. He is struggling defensively, terrible offensively and takes too many dumb penalities. The last 4 months have possibly been his worst stretch as a Hab.

He's played with both of those guys what, 10 games out of 77(12% of the season) and what have his numbers been?

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04-04-2014, 06:26 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Regardless of roles and linemates, you can't honestly say Eller is playing well in any role. He is struggling defensively, terrible offensively and takes too many dumb penalities. The last 4 months have possibly been his worst stretch as a Hab.

He's played with both of those guys what, 10 games out of 77(12% of the season) and what have his numbers been?
while it's true he isnt doing well, you still can't seriously compare a player given top wingers, most o-zone starts, most PP... to someone centering the 3rd or 4th line...

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04-04-2014, 06:29 AM
  #705
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was still playing with Patches before... and Gallagher was (after a while) doing very well on his line... it's not like Vanek replaced Weise or Moen you know...
...and with Gallagher(or Vanek) plus Pacioretty he has 48 points in 55 games. Yeah he gets good linemates, BUT he is taking advantage of it. Most guys that get top offensive minutes also have top wingers on their line(Hossa Neal Kunitz Perry Marleau Pavelksi Iginla Lucic O'reilly Landeskog Benn Eberle Parise Pominville etc etc) and they get to face top shutdown forwards and d-men. This isn't a Habs concept it's the same throughout the league.

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04-04-2014, 06:31 AM
  #706
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while it's true he isnt doing well, you still can't seriously compare a player given top wingers, most o-zone starts, most PP... to someone centering the 3rd or 4th line...
I agree, but Eller has not played well even when given good linemates. Desharnaissince the "light went on" has made his wingers better, Eller has made his worse. Gallagher and Galchenyuk both played with him and were moved off because they weren't producing as he wasn't distributing the puck. He plays with blinders on and refuses to pass until there are 2 guys on him.

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04-04-2014, 06:36 AM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
...and with Gallagher(or Vanek) plus Pacioretty he has 48 points in 55 games. Yeah he gets good linemates, BUT he is taking advantage of it. Most guys that get top offensive minutes also have top wingers on their line(Hossa Neal Kunitz Perry Marleau Pavelksi Iginla Lucic O'reilly Landeskog Benn Eberle Parise Pominville etc etc) and they get to face top shutdown forwards and d-men. This isn't a Habs concept it's the same throughout the league.
and most guys on your list are good players period. Iginla managed to do very well for years on a bad CGY team, Neal was already scoring 20 + as a youngster in Dallas, Hossa managed 70+ season at least once with every team he played for, Kunitz was a 1st liner in Anaheim and doing well, etc... it's not like these guys needed to be surrounded by the best on their team and best in their conference to be productive...

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04-04-2014, 06:39 AM
  #708
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I agree, but Eller has not played well even when given good linemates. Desharnaissince the "light went on" has made his wingers better, Eller has made his worse. Gallagher and Galchenyuk both played with him and were moved off because they weren't producing as he wasn't distributing the puck. He plays with blinders on and refuses to pass until there are 2 guys on him.
dont kid yourself... Patches was doing as well last season while DD was so-so... and Vanek IS a proven 30+goal scorer (even last season on a sucky Sabres team he as over PPG)...

let's not act as if these guys wouldnt be as good without DD, they already proven they can easily produce without him.

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04-04-2014, 06:44 AM
  #709
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dont kid yourself... Patches was doing as well last season while DD was so-so... and Vanek IS a proven 30+goal scorer (even last season on a sucky Sabres team he as over PPG)...

let's not act as if these guys wouldnt be as good without DD, they already proven they can easily produce without him.
Do you think Pacioretty would score 35 with Eller, the way Eller is playing? He'd be lucky to score 20. I think he could score 25-30 with Plekanec but not 35. Plekanec isn't the passer Desharnais is.

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04-04-2014, 06:50 AM
  #710
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Do you think Pacioretty would score 35 with Eller, the way Eller is playing? He'd be lucky to score 20. I think he could score 25-30 with Plekanec but not 35. Plekanec isn't the passer Desharnais is.
who cares ? that doesnt mean DD is making his elite wingers better.



except that Plekanec is better on the forecheck, backcheck, along the board and is a better scorer...

so... 3 or 4 goals less, 3 or 4 more assists, big deal.


anyway, it's not like Plekanec ever prevented guys like Kovalev and Cammy (remember his playoff streak ??) from scoring... you know.

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04-04-2014, 08:07 AM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
To be fair, I brought up one player (Desharnais). You initially stated "the rest of the team" and then changed to a few players regressing statistically. Either way, argument doesn't really matter. Moving on...
I mentioned "a few players" in the interests of brevity, but the fact is that pretty much all of our players not playing on the Golden Childs' line have regressed.

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-Eller will develop into a solid third line winger.
This is based on...? He's looked horrible every time he's been on the wing, what factor(s) are gonna turn it around for him next season?

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-Gallagher's production has improved, despite his musical chair performance in the line-up.
This is actually completely incorrect.

In 2012-13, Gallagher had 28 points in 44 games, for .64ppg
This year, he has 40 points in 76 games, for .53ppg

Seeing that .53 < .64, not sure how that qualifies as an increase in production?

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-Galchenyuk is having a down year defensively, offensively his numbers aren't much of an improvement.
Right. So you'd be ok with a repeat of this next season?

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-Plekanec plays in all situations and is underrated. No idea why he is on your list.
Plekanec hasn't produced at this low a pace since 2008-2009 season, and you have no idea why he's on my list? He's underrated alright: by our coach.

Plekanec is near exclusively treated as our PK mule and #1 grinder/shutdown C by MT.

The only forward near him on PK time/game is Moen, who only averages 8-9 total minutes per game. Plekanec in contrast is tasked with almost 3 minutes of PK per game (the next closest regular forward has half that amount of time) and the toughest defensive assignments; his offensive "rewards" are the scraps of DD PP time and the privilege of being exhausted from PK / defensive duties on the uncommon occasions when he gets to play offense.

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-Briere is the third best goal producer per 60 minutes played. Given his usage on the ice, he is doing well for himself despite his contract being a bad one.
Great, so you'd be happy with another 25 point campaign from him next season as well?

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Outside of the Pacioretty-Desharnais-Vanek line, you don't have much to work with.

Gallagher-Eller-Galchenyuk were re-united a little while ago and they were exposed. Who do you put with them then? Center the Gallys with Plekanec? Awesome. Now who does Eller have to play with? Briere and Bourque? Gionta? Moen? Suddenly, his point production drops off. Well... it must be Desharnais' fault, **** HIM.
Please find me the quote where I've blamed Desharnais for ice-time distribution? In fact, please find me a quote from ANY of the main "DD isn't a superstar" crowd that blames him for ice-time and line combinations? It's a pathetic strawman that's a blatant attempt to dodge the actual argument being made, and I honestly assumed it was only the province of posters like LL and SoutherHab...

Secondly, with this statement your argument starts to lose some its internal consistency: Eller's slotted in as a 3rd line winger, but now all of a sudden his "production" is so important that we can't change the DD line nor put the Gallys with Plekanec?

Third, we have plenty of options:

Briere-Plekanec-Vanek
Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Eller-Desharnais-Gionta

That's one variant, off the top of my head. If Desharnais truly is one of the most underrated offensive talents of his generation, surely he can spark Eller back to life, hmmm? He's also defensively sound from what FlyingKostitsyn, SouthernHab, and a whole host of others have posted, and his line has two of our better defensive players on it, so that should actually be a pretty darn good 2-way 3rd line, no?

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No. The team needs more options up front. They have the depth to be a competitive team but they do not have the offensive-talented depth to surround their younger core with talent to help them strive and progress statistically. No matter how you look at it, one player between the Gallys and Eller will suffer.
So instead of choosing one of the Gallys or Eller to suffer, we chose the whole team? Is the current scheme of:

- a 4 million dollar Center playing on the 4th line wing
- a top 3 drafted Center playing on the 3rd/2nd line wing
- our two 30+ goal scorers on the same line
- our best Center relegated to a shutdown/PK role
- a potential 2-way forward marginalized to the 4th line

...working out any better?

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04-04-2014, 08:21 AM
  #712
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And the whining continues...

Not gonna bother quoting any of this tripe but out of curiosity, what lineup would the DD haters like to see?

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04-04-2014, 08:29 AM
  #713
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And the whining continues...

Not gonna bother quoting any of this tripe but out of curiosity, what lineup would the DD haters like to see?
There's a lineup in the post that's literally right above yours

Also out of curiosity, what's your ideal lineup going into next year? Assume we re-sign Vanek.

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04-04-2014, 08:38 AM
  #714
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The debate is turning into pointless rethoric at this point.

Eller vs DD.

One that did 10 points in last 55 games BUT could have more points if playing with better linemates.

One that slumped for almost 1/4 of a season but managed to pick up his game, plays with our best wingers. Would probably have less points if playing with the wingers that play with Eller.

Arguments stalls at 'fact Eller would have more points given top wingers'. Pro DD says 'No, opinion ain't a fact', pro Eller says 'I know I got my own crystal ball' 'DD ain't top 30' ' DD had a huge and terrible slump' 'Eller slumps' 'He plays with dead weights'

On and on and on. At least on Leafs board their scapegoat is really bad. Here DD can be somehow, kind of good. Lots of shortcomings, but really generates a lot of scoring for his wingers. With that said, yes I am on these boards defending him, but I too can see that he's the weakest link of the trio with Pac and Vanek. Not even close to their caliber. DD at best on a good team would obviously fall down to the 2nd-3rd offensive options.

Eller seems lost. Was expecting him to carry on his hot start, but he's still young and raw. Some players take more time to developp I wouldn't throw him under the bus yet. But playing him and Gally together is too raw IMO. That's why both are trailing in the +- dpt. Eller is less raw defensively, but offensively he seems to play instinctively and that is usually driven by confidence. He needs to developp chemistry with a good winger and it will carry on IMO. He has all the tools to succeed. Vanek could be the solution.

The only change I'd make to this lineup would be putting Gally on top line with Pac and DD (I know Gally or Pac would need to switch side) and put Vanek with Eller / Gallagher, try to jump start them (Vanek is an excellent playmaker / all around offensively, needs hard workers to get the puck to him if he's not scoring off the rush). Gallagher needs to get going too, scored a goal last game but he's not as visible as he has been. Vanek would definitely put them up a notch, he has created a lot of scoring chances since he's in Mtl.

Then, put Plekanec on pure shutdown role. He's much more efficient that way, and he'll still put up a 40-50 points pace. Reform the Gionta - Plek - Bournival trio, lots of speed and defense, will be good VS TB.

Brière is the secret weapon that you put out when the oponent's fourth line is out, play him 12 mins a night max. Otherwise he becomes a liability. You could put him at the point on the 2np PP wave too.

Top 9 :

Pac - DD - Galchenyuk
Vanek - Eller - Gallagher
Bournival - Plekanec - Gionta


Thoughts ? Would that give Eller some spark to wake him up and get him some confidence ?


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04-04-2014, 08:47 AM
  #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
There's a lineup in the post that's literally right above yours
Humm, yes sorry about that. My mind tends to wander off when I read DD rants.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Also out of curiosity, what's your ideal lineup going into next year? Assume we re-sign Vanek.
Assuming no player changes, how about this:

1/Offense: Pac-Des-Van (dynamite offense)
1/Defense: Eller-Pleks-Gio (great defense and some offense...and eller)
2/Offense: Galchy/Bri-Bri/Galchy-Gally (ease Galchy into C)
2/Defense: Prust-White-Weise (hardworking defense)

Depth: Moen, Bournival, Bourque

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04-04-2014, 08:54 AM
  #716
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
who cares ? that doesnt mean DD is making his elite wingers better.



except that Plekanec is better on the forecheck, backcheck, along the board and is a better scorer...

so... 3 or 4 goals less, 3 or 4 more assists, big deal.


anyway, it's not like Plekanec ever prevented guys like Kovalev and Cammy (remember his playoff streak ??) from scoring... you know.
He made Pacioretty and Cole better.

Hasn't been with Vanek long enough to make a true determination.

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04-04-2014, 08:56 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I agree, but Eller has not played well even when given good linemates. Desharnaissince the "light went on" has made his wingers better, Eller has made his worse. Gallagher and Galchenyuk both played with him and were moved off because they weren't producing as he wasn't distributing the puck. He plays with blinders on and refuses to pass until there are 2 guys on him.
Gallagher and Galchenyuk since the Vanek acquisition were put one game back with Eller. After that they were moved up to play with Plekanec. Since then, each kid has 3pts in 10gp. Wow, the production..
I'm really not a fan of that line. Putting those kids with the heavy duty Plekanec? That just isn't going to work, especially not in the POs when Plekanec gets even more defensive duties. You know they will be split up at some point and Gionta back with Plek. Instead of trying to let Eller gain back his chemistry with the kids, he was moved down to center the 4th line (and did well) and then moved up to be a winger on the 3rd (and surprise surprise, Eller probably played his worse game there..).

Eller has played with some pure crap wingers all year, it's pretty normal that he hangs on to the puck. Every time he set up Bourque it got him nothing, Prust? Moen? No result. So ya, it's normal to have developed a habit of hanging on to the puck a little too much. That's supposed to change over night? Apparently, seeing how after one game the EGG line was broken up again.

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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Do you think Pacioretty would score 35 with Eller, the way Eller is playing? He'd be lucky to score 20. I think he could score 25-30 with Plekanec but not 35. Plekanec isn't the passer Desharnais is.
Well of course not. Do you think MaxPac would score 35 with DD playing like he did earlier? And yet...
Point is if Eller would be getting everything DD has in terms of ice time, opportunities and linemates, then yea, he would be playing a heck of a lot better than he is now.
Eller had no problem producing at a 50pt pace earlier this year. There's no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to do anything when given the opportunities. He wasn't drafted 13 overall for no reason. Almost 300 games of experience already at 24, that's good.
Every single young player you want to see perform in the top 6 needs to get a shot at it, otherwise they stall and regress. Take MaxPac, guy flat out says, put me in the top 6 otherwise I have no use being here because his progression is going nowhere being on the bottom lines.
Well, with Eller, he has the ability to still be useful on the bottom lines, but don't freaking expect him to turn into a 50pt scorer by keeping him on the bottom lines.
Where do you think DD would be if he was kept with Darche and Moen all the time?
Or Plekanec if he stayed down as the 3rd liner?
Heck, Jordan Staal only scored 50pts once in Pittsburgh while used as the 3rd center. However, that was the year Crosby played 22games, so Staal was more of a 2nd line center. Also, despite being the 3rd center, he was always in the top for ice time hovering around the 20min mark every year.
So dude, don't expect Eller to become this producing center on the bottom lines with limited ice time and no PP opportunities.
Last year was the first time he got to play with two capable offensive wingers and he did well. This year, he started the year with them, again doing well, then had a little cold streak and since then never saw two good wingers until he was reunited with them 5 months later.
Every time he was given at least one capable winger, he also had some production. Happened with AK on his side, and again with just Galchenyuk (around .5 pt production with him on his wing).

Eller needs to be given more opportunities offensively if you want him to succeed offensively. It's the same for every single talent out there that isn't elite.

As for Plek, please man, they guy has had no problem making pure snipers produce before.


I don't understand your constant need to bash Eller. It's one thing to say your disappointed with his season, it's another to compare him and DD and say ''see, DD got out of his slump!''. Just drop it already. We're going into the POs with DD's line leading the charge but we need our other lines too.

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04-04-2014, 09:01 AM
  #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
There's a lineup in the post that's literally right above yours

Also out of curiosity, what's your ideal lineup going into next year? Assume we re-sign Vanek.
Not going to quote your entire post because arguments are becoming quite redundant. One thing I wanted to ask though is in regards to the line-up you posted:

Quote:
Briere-Plekanec-Vanek
Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Eller-Desharnais-Gionta
I'm just curious... who faces the top lines of each team? Plekanec's line where Briere doesn't know defense and Vanek doesn't back-check much? Maybe Galchenyuk at center with his defensive game regressing? Or do we trust Desharnais to "be carried" by Eller and Gionta.

You're sacrificing five-on-five production from the DD line, breaking them up and creating three lines that will have a hard time defensively.

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04-04-2014, 09:12 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gallagher and Galchenyuk since the Vanek acquisition were put one game back with Eller. After that they were moved up to play with Plekanec. Since then, each kid has 3pts in 10gp. Wow, the production..
I'm really not a fan of that line. Putting those kids with the heavy duty Plekanec? That just isn't going to work, especially not in the POs when Plekanec gets even more defensive duties. You know they will be split up at some point and Gionta back with Plek. Instead of trying to let Eller gain back his chemistry with the kids, he was moved down to center the 4th line (and did well) and then moved up to be a winger on the 3rd (and surprise surprise, Eller probably played his worse game there..).

Eller has played with some pure crap wingers all year, it's pretty normal that he hangs on to the puck. Every time he set up Bourque it got him nothing, Prust? Moen? No result. So ya, it's normal to have developed a habit of hanging on to the puck a little too much. That's supposed to change over night? Apparently, seeing how after one game the EGG line was broken up again.



Well of course not. Do you think MaxPac would score 35 with DD playing like he did earlier? And yet...
Point is if Eller would be getting everything DD has in terms of ice time, opportunities and linemates, then yea, he would be playing a heck of a lot better than he is now.
Eller had no problem producing at a 50pt pace earlier this year. There's no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to do anything when given the opportunities. He wasn't drafted 13 overall for no reason. Almost 300 games of experience already at 24, that's good.
Every single young player you want to see perform in the top 6 needs to get a shot at it, otherwise they stall and regress. Take MaxPac, guy flat out says, put me in the top 6 otherwise I have no use being here because his progression is going nowhere being on the bottom lines.
Well, with Eller, he has the ability to still be useful on the bottom lines, but don't freaking expect him to turn into a 50pt scorer by keeping him on the bottom lines.
Where do you think DD would be if he was kept with Darche and Moen all the time?
Or Plekanec if he stayed down as the 3rd liner?
Heck, Jordan Staal only scored 50pts once in Pittsburgh while used as the 3rd center. However, that was the year Crosby played 22games, so Staal was more of a 2nd line center. Also, despite being the 3rd center, he was always in the top for ice time hovering around the 20min mark every year.
So dude, don't expect Eller to become this producing center on the bottom lines with limited ice time and no PP opportunities.
Last year was the first time he got to play with two capable offensive wingers and he did well. This year, he started the year with them, again doing well, then had a little cold streak and since then never saw two good wingers until he was reunited with them 5 months later.
Every time he was given at least one capable winger, he also had some production. Happened with AK on his side, and again with just Galchenyuk (around .5 pt production with him on his wing).

Eller needs to be given more opportunities offensively if you want him to succeed offensively. It's the same for every single talent out there that isn't elite.

As for Plek, please man, they guy has had no problem making pure snipers produce before.


I don't understand your constant need to bash Eller. It's one thing to say your disappointed with his season, it's another to compare him and DD and say ''see, DD got out of his slump!''. Just drop it already. We're going into the POs with DD's line leading the charge but we need our other lines too.
Your last paragraph is comical coming from this thread.


Eller has been probably the worst player on the roster based on his ice time and the chances he's had this year. Yet because he is 6'2" and under 25 people bend over backwards to make excuses for him, blame everybody under the sun and make him the victim. As much as anybody I want him to get his game going but, everything has been tried, he's played with almost everybody on the roster and in all kinds of situations and his play isn't getting better.

On the flip side, people bend over backwards to crap on a guy that's been one of our top 3-4 players most games the last 4+ months because he is 5'6" or 5'7".

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04-04-2014, 09:27 AM
  #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
I'm just curious... who faces the top lines of each team? Plekanec's line where Briere doesn't know defense and Vanek doesn't back-check much? Maybe Galchenyuk at center with his defensive game regressing? Or do we trust Desharnais to "be carried" by Eller and Gionta.

You're sacrificing five-on-five production from the DD line, breaking them up and creating three lines that will have a hard time defensively.
Is that right? Let me ask you a question: who faces opposing top lines now?

Is it the Pacioretty-DD-Vanek line?
- if so, then my new lines should pose no problem, as we have Plekanec and Vanek together, so while Briere may be a defensive downgrade from Patches, Plekanec is an upgrade from DD, so that's a wash; they're just as, if not more, defensively sound as our current 1st line.

Maybe it's the Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Gallagher line?
- if that's the case, great; I have Gally and Chuck still together, and while Pacioretty isn't as good as Pleks defensively, I don't think the switch turns this line into swiss cheese.

Is it our ad hoc third line, featuring Briere and Gionta?
- My current 3rd line still features Gionta, has Eller, and replaces Briere with DD, who as I've pointed out, has been lauded by many as being defensively sound (only .14 GA/60 minutes worse than Plekanec!!)

Perhaps it's our 4th line?
- they're unchanged, so no problem here either.

So really, not sure what the issue is?

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Old
04-04-2014, 09:44 AM
  #721
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Saying "Desharnais has displayed the traits the trophy was created to reward" isn't the same as saying HOW he's displayed them, but whatever, man.



Gallagher's production has gone down:
2012-13: 44 GP 28 P (.64 ppg)
2013-14: 76 GP 40 P (.53 ppg)

Beaulieu only got recalled from Hamilton due to a suspension.

And yeah, our Top 3 pick is also regressing; this doesn't concern you?



So it sounds like Eller's on the right track! Are you happy with his development, current usage, and progression then?



Nice hypocrisy. I mentioned Gallagher in my original post, and you conveniently ignored his reduced production.



Nevermind, you DID mention his reduced production!!

Love how you tried to indirectly downplay his reduced production with his supposed improved 2-way play. Makes sense that a team with a mediocre PP and atrocious ES scoring would want to REDUCE scoring in favor of more defense, especially in light of:



And that's certainly due to his goaltending coach, I agree. However, having a "Vezina Caliber Goalie" makes it all the more bizarre that you seem to favor reducing offensive output for increased defensive ability among our Top 6 forwards



He's been completely removed from the PK.
He's dropped from .9 ppg to .69
He has less PP points (23) in 77 games this season than he did in 42 games last season (26)

He's really taking off.



L-O-L playing better defensively against who? He's 8th on the team in terms of Relative QoC, he's not being given any regular, significant defensive assignments.



Whoa whoa whoa, I thought Desharnais was the playmaker / visionary on that line?



Guess who's 9th on the team in relative QoC? Desharnais never plays opposing teams' best offensive units, so kudos to him for not allowing junk offensive lines from not scoring. Seriously, the criteria for Desharnais to be "successful" is so ridiculously low around here...



1) I thought we were talking about young players? Is 27 now young?
2) Not sure how going from 50% to 51% makes him an above average faceoff man
3) Also not sure how being 5th best on the team in FO in 2012-13 to 7th now constitutes an improvement



It'd be hard for him to get any worse there, no? Nowhere to go but up...



Yeah, let's have a definitive assessment on a guy playing his first season in the NHL



Well there you have it, MT's has developed a great 4th line player; they're so rare and hard to find these days...



Please explain how playing a defensive role on the wing for most of the season has in any way prepared him to play center? Or do you see him on the wing indefinitely?



The ultimate ironic statement.
There is so much dishonnesty in your answers that I would not bother to explain. And if like I guess you won't be able to recognize where, than it is proving my point. So long for me in this pueril thread.

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04-04-2014, 10:06 AM
  #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Do you think Pacioretty would score 35 with Eller, the way Eller is playing? He'd be lucky to score 20. I think he could score 25-30 with Plekanec but not 35. Plekanec isn't the passer Desharnais is.

And somehow.....Plek made Briere produce.....DD was incapable to make him produce
He made Bourque not so useless for a long strech....DD was incapable in the first 20g.
Even Ryder was more productive with Plek last year.
Hell, even Bournival had a terrific start with Plek.....DD got to play with him and create nothing.
And not to mention that Gallagher was more productive with Eller/Galchenyuk than DD

Actually, the only name you can say that it's Pacioretty, and even there, it's mostly cause Patches never got to play with anybody else for more than 4-5 games. The only players Patches got to play with was Gomez and he did produce at the exact same rate.

DD the great playmaker won't be that great without top NHL scoring winger....that we know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
The debate is turning into pointless rethoric at this point.

Eller vs DD.

One that did 10 points in last 55 games BUT could have more points if playing with better linemates.

One that slumped for almost 1/4 of a season but managed to pick up his game, plays with our best wingers. Would probably have less points if playing with the wingers that play with Eller.

Arguments stalls at 'fact Eller would have more points given top wingers'. Pro DD says 'No, opinion ain't a fact', pro Eller says 'I know I got my own crystal ball' 'DD ain't top 30' ' DD had a huge and terrible slump' 'Eller slumps' 'He plays with dead weights'

On and on and on. At least on Leafs board their scapegoat is really bad. Here DD can be somehow, kind of good. Lots of shortcomings, but really generates a lot of scoring for his wingers. With that said, yes I am on these boards defending him, but I too can see that he's the weakest link of the trio with Pac and Vanek. Not even close to their caliber. DD at best on a good team would obviously fall down to the 2nd-3rd offensive options.

Eller seems lost. Was expecting him to carry on his hot start, but he's still young and raw. Some players take more time to developp I wouldn't throw him under the bus yet. But playing him and Gally together is too raw IMO. That's why both are trailing in the +- dpt. Eller is less raw defensively, but offensively he seems to play instinctively and that is usually driven by confidence. He needs to developp chemistry with a good winger and it will carry on IMO. He has all the tools to succeed. Vanek could be the solution.

The only change I'd make to this lineup would be putting Gally on top line with Pac and DD (I know Gally or Pac would need to switch side) and put Vanek with Eller / Gallagher, try to jump start them (Vanek is an excellent playmaker / all around offensively, needs hard workers to get the puck to him if he's not scoring off the rush). Gallagher needs to get going too, scored a goal last game but he's not as visible as he has been. Vanek would definitely put them up a notch, he has created a lot of scoring chances since he's in Mtl.

Then, put Plekanec on pure shutdown role. He's much more efficient that way, and he'll still put up a 40-50 points pace. Reform the Gionta - Plek - Bournival trio, lots of speed and defense, will be good VS TB.

Brière is the secret weapon that you put out when the oponent's fourth line is out, play him 12 mins a night max. Otherwise he becomes a liability. You could put him at the point on the 2np PP wave too.

Top 9 :

Pac - DD - Galchenyuk
Vanek - Eller - Gallagher
Bournival - Plekanec - Gionta


Thoughts ? Would that give Eller some spark to wake him up and get him some confidence ?
Don't hate it........But i wouldn't give Vanek to Eller....while it might work (Hewll, Vanek would be able to make White look like a top 6 center), i don't think it's the time to do it.

No Briere?

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Vanek
Prust - Eller/Briere - Gallagher

But i don'T hate the idea of:

Pacioretty - DD - Vanek
Bournival - Plekanec - Gionta
Galchenyuk - Eller/Briere - Gallagher
Moen - Prust - Weise
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Your last paragraph is comical coming from this thread.


Eller has been probably the worst player on the roster based on his ice time and the chances he's had this year. Yet because he is 6'2" and under 25 people bend over backwards to make excuses for him, blame everybody under the sun and make him the victim. As much as anybody I want him to get his game going but, everything has been tried, he's played with almost everybody on the roster and in all kinds of situations and his play isn't getting better.

On the flip side, people bend over backwards to crap on a guy that's been one of our top 3-4 players most games the last 4+ months because he is 5'6" or 5'7".
Well, if everything has been tried with Eller.....let's try the DD Rehabilitation treatment.
Put him with Pacioretty and Vanek, top PP time and offensive game situation.

That's what we did with DD when he had 1 pts in 19 games...that worked extremeley well for DD back then....why not try it?

Or more realistically.....give him back the Kids,
That worked last year, that worked this year for all 3 of them.
And all 3 of them worked better with this combination.

They did the job as our first line in the 1/4 of the season.....sure they could be really dangerous as a 3rd line.

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Old
04-04-2014, 10:16 AM
  #723
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Your last paragraph is comical coming from this thread.


Eller has been probably the worst player on the roster based on his ice time and the chances he's had this year. Yet because he is 6'2" and under 25 people bend over backwards to make excuses for him, blame everybody under the sun and make him the victim. As much as anybody I want him to get his game going but, everything has been tried, he's played with almost everybody on the roster and in all kinds of situations and his play isn't getting better.

On the flip side, people bend over backwards to crap on a guy that's been one of our top 3-4 players most games the last 4+ months because he is 5'6" or 5'7".
Dude, you've built yourself quite the reputation on this board. You're known as a big fan of DD, a hater of Eller, and a big lover of anything the organization does.
So if you want to regain a little more credit, drop the crap.

Eller was doing well on the EGG line, they got into a little skid as most lines do, and were split. Since then, Eller was given Galchenyuk for a period of time (where he produced at a .5 scoring pace), then was given scrappers. His ice time dropped, his PP time got eliminated. Over that process, he was given Bourque (who's been a regular scratch as of late, and dropped to the 4th line), Briere who's pretty much a 40pt player capable of 12min of ice time at best, or scrappers with no offensive abilities. Then, after the Vanek trade, he got to play on the EGG line again for one game, until they moved Gionta down. They formed a pretty good 3rd line, until again, about a game or two later, Eller was moved down to the 4th and Briere made the 3rd line center. After a game, he was moved up as a 3rd line winger, which failed.

That is what has happened. Stop inventing crap with Eller was given every possible opportunities throughout the season. It's just not true. He was doing well in the first 1/4 of the year, then we rearranged our structure and lines, and Eller got the short end of the stick. Now he's borderline useless.

I'm not sure what happens to the signal that is being sent from your eyes to your brain for it to come out with you thinking Eller's been given all the best and ideal situations to come out of his crap hole. The message your brain gets is certainly skewed because Eller has been pushed down, not boosted up.

I don't give two craps about the size of our players. I'm one of the few posters on this board that always preached talent over size. So I couldn't care less if Eller is 6'2 or 5'8. I care about the potential he showed. I care about how he performed with AK and Moen two years ago, with how he did with Galy-Prust/Galla last year, and how he started the year on the EGG line. I care about that guy. They guy that can own the puck in the corners, protect it well, create some things offensively and produce. I care about that. I brought up the age in order to demonstrate that a guy that has as much experience as he does at this age surely must have some talent, so let's exploit it, and if you think we're going to do that by limiting him to the 3rd or 4th line, then it's not going to work.

Everything I'm saying is very simple and logical. Unless you have some type of clear bias towards Eller, or just don't think he has any potential (although facts would prove you wrong), then I don't see how anybody would disagree with me.
And I've never bashed DD. I think he's doing a great job. Can't say the same of our coach.

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Old
04-04-2014, 10:28 AM
  #724
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Dude, you've built yourself quite the reputation on this board. You're known as a big fan of DD, a hater of Eller, and a big lover of anything the organization does.
So if you want to regain a little more credit, drop the crap.

Eller was doing well on the EGG line, they got into a little skid as most lines do, and were split. Since then, Eller was given Galchenyuk for a period of time (where he produced at a .5 scoring pace), then was given scrappers. His ice time dropped, his PP time got eliminated. Over that process, he was given Bourque (who's been a regular scratch as of late, and dropped to the 4th line), Briere who's pretty much a 40pt player capable of 12min of ice time at best, or scrappers with no offensive abilities. Then, after the Vanek trade, he got to play on the EGG line again for one game, until they moved Gionta down. They formed a pretty good 3rd line, until again, about a game or two later, Eller was moved down to the 4th and Briere made the 3rd line center. After a game, he was moved up as a 3rd line winger, which failed.

That is what has happened. Stop inventing crap with Eller was given every possible opportunities throughout the season. It's just not true. He was doing well in the first 1/4 of the year, then we rearranged our structure and lines, and Eller got the short end of the stick. Now he's borderline useless.

I'm not sure what happens to the signal that is being sent from your eyes to your brain for it to come out with you thinking Eller's been given all the best and ideal situations to come out of his crap hole. The message your brain gets is certainly skewed because Eller has been pushed down, not boosted up.

I don't give two craps about the size of our players. I'm one of the few posters on this board that always preached talent over size. So I couldn't care less if Eller is 6'2 or 5'8. I care about the potential he showed. I care about how he performed with AK and Moen two years ago, with how he did with Galy-Prust/Galla last year, and how he started the year on the EGG line. I care about that guy. They guy that can own the puck in the corners, protect it well, create some things offensively and produce. I care about that. I brought up the age in order to demonstrate that a guy that has as much experience as he does at this age surely must have some talent, so let's exploit it, and if you think we're going to do that by limiting him to the 3rd or 4th line, then it's not going to work.

Everything I'm saying is very simple and logical. Unless you have some type of clear bias towards Eller, or just don't think he has any potential (although facts would prove you wrong), then I don't see how anybody would disagree with me.
And I've never bashed DD. I think he's doing a great job. Can't say the same of our coach.
I don't love or hate any player...I leave that to some of the posters on here with massive agendas. I love the crest on the front of the logo.

You conveniently leave out that the much ballyhooed reunion of the famous EGG line was an epic failure, they were -3 and a trainwreck. Eller also spent a few games with Plekanec and Gionta. Briere has always been productive with Plerkanec yet with Eller he's suddenly a black hole?

At some point people need to stop bringing up last year, the season is over 75 games old and if a player isn't producing there is a big issue. The fact that Eller doesn't have the best wingers shouldn't mean he leads the team in dumb penalities, plays poorly defensively and never passes the puck. But because he's 6'2" and relatively young the HF Boards masses give him a free pass as usual. These are the same folks that would have sent Desharnais to the ECHL when he was struggling...huge huge bias.

You obsess with painting Eller as the victim instead of holding him accountable for his horrible play. It's all about excuses. If he was playing well and feeding wingers that can't finish I'd the the 1st one pushing for a bigger role and better linemates...but it's the opposite. Guys need to be moved off his line because he hogs the puck and doesn't pass it.

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Old
04-04-2014, 10:31 AM
  #725
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't love or hate any player...I leave that to some of the posters on here with massive agendas. I love the crest on the front of the logo.
Completely untrue!

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