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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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Old
04-05-2014, 06:12 PM
  #851
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
What else do you expect him to say?
"Fire Therrien!"

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04-05-2014, 06:15 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I get it but we got 4 games left and you want to make the team worse? Why?

I agree galchenyuk should get his chance in due time but he's a pretty solid winger as well. Let's not turn this into a pointless issue with 4 games left in the season.
How would it have made it worse ?????? Not like you cannot plug in three wingers to play on the first line with the forty goal guy and DD


Last edited by borisbadenough: 04-05-2014 at 06:29 PM.
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04-05-2014, 08:04 PM
  #853
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So what does it matter then?

I know and knew both statements don't have the same meaning. I'm not sure what the problem is if they don't contradict each other?
Seriously, what are you even talking about? The problem is you changed your argument mid-stream, then defended the switch by saying "it's ok cause they don't negate each other"

Two arguments that don't contradict aren't automatically the same argument, are they? Seriously...

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Theory : Desharnais can support good goal scoring wingers and help their production.
The main supporting argument : good goal scorers like Cole and Pacioretty have achieved their most productive sequences while playing with Desharnais.
Those are your supporting arguments??

Cole played 1 full season here, mostly with DD, so what data on how he would've performed for a full season with another Center are you basing this assessment on? Secondly, guess who else played with Cole during his best (aka only) season here? Max Pacioretty! Using your logic, this is actually more evidence that Pacioretty makes his linemates better, no?

Speaking of which, Pacioretty has mostly played with DD since 2011-12, so again, we have ZERO alternative data to draw on. In addition, 2011-12 was amazingly DD's breakout season, funny that he "broke out" after joining Patches...

Please show me how anything in those two "arguments" points to DD being the independent variable, and not the dependent one?

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
This is particularly notable for Cole who not only had his best goal scoring season playing on Desharnais' wing but also managed the most shot on goal with 240.
Nice misrepresentation. Cole had 30 goals in 60 games in 2005-06, he got 5 more in 22 extra games with Desharnais; .5 goals/game vs. .43 goals/game. Nice to ignore GP when it suits your agenda. Also, yeah, he had a career high is SOG because of DD, and most certainly NOT because he led all forwards in ES ToI and was 2nd (behind only DD) in PP ToI

Oh and by the way, his ES ice-time/game in 2010-11? Highest in his entire career. You think maybe that might have influenced his shot total?

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I do not put his success that season entirely on Desharnais' shoulders but that year he managed to top seasons were he had Erik Staal as center!
Yeah, he also had his highest average ice-time per game while playing 22 more games!!

Guess those are minor considerations though, since you didn't mention them at all.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
As for Pacioretty, he's been in the top 10 for shots on goal (top 11 actually in 2011-12 since he was tied with Tavares) ever since he started playing with Desharnais. He wasn't known as a ''shoot first'' player before, I argue that Desharnais helped him use his scoring instincts by ''feeding'' him the puck all the time.
Wow.

He played 34 games in 2008-09.
He played 52 games in 2009-10, primarily with Moen and Metropolit.
He played 37 games in 2010-11
His first full season was 2011-12, where he played with DD, was 3rd on the team in PP time/game and 2nd in ES time/game

But yes, obviously it was DD's underrated generational playmaking skills that helped Patches free his inner sniper spirit, and the fact that he was playing more than 30-odd games or not with players like Moen and Metropolit were only distant factors in his development.

Amazing how DD's generational talents are always most evident in seasons where he and his linemates receive top PP time, top ES time, and basement level QoC stats. Oh, I forgot though, you addressed all that when you failed to mention it at all

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Pacioretty has mentionned himself several times how he loves playing with Desharnais. Unless you have lived in a cave the last few years you have certainly read these quotes (which I'll dig out if you don't remember them). It goes beyond the typical ''oh yeah we have good chemistry''.
I don't recall arguing that Pacioretty hated playing with Desharnais, nor that they didn't have chemistry. What you can "dig out" for me is the argument that Pacioretty's quotes prove that Desharnais is the cause of Pacioretty's great season, and not, you know, the reverse.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I disagree that Plekanec's role is solely defensive, I think ''two-way'' is appropriate. He's excellent in that role however but not superior to Desharnais as a purely offensive player.
Oh!! You disagree!!??!! I wish you had brought up that airtight case earlier!!

He's on pace for his worst offensive season in 5 years. This, despite leading forwards in ES time/game. I think a stronger "thought" might be that either his ES game has gone to pot, or that his line mates and ice-time have been heavily defensive in nature.

Supportive argument: Plekanec is only one of 2 forwards with 50+ GP who has defensemen as 4 of his 5 most common linemates:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...+9+11+13+15+17

...the other one is Brian Gionta, the only forward in Plekanec's top 5...

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Oh and simply answering ''Reverse causality'' wasn't condescending? Please! Wonder why I mentioned college textbooks? You acted like an 18 year old who just learnt those words at school in a lecture about argumentative fallacies. Don't take it wrong but its slightly annoying to see people going around here screaming ''STRAWMAN!!'' and ''APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!'' all the time.
Oh, I agree. You know what else is annoying? Hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Nice strawman. And false dilemna, too! And I didn't even need to dust off my philosophy textbooks!
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The same argument could be used to claim that Pacioretty is only good because of Desharnais - After all Max was a pretty mediocre player before they were paired, some even called him a bust!
Which would be a ridiculous argument (and yes, I know you've said you're not making it; the entirety of your remaining post notwithstanding). As I already posted:

He played 34 games in 2008-09.
He played 52 games in 2009-10, primarily with Moen and Metropolit.
He played 37 games in 2010-11
His first full season was 2011-12, where he played with DD, was 3rd on the team in PP time/game and 2nd in ES time/game

Pretty ridiculous to compare his production in 34 and 37 game seasons or when he was playing with Moen and Metropolit for 52 games, to a full season, on the top PP, with easy offensive minutes. Again, amazing that top PP time and easy offensive minutes are always TOTALLY COINCIDENTALLY present while Desharnais' elite development skills are making mediocre guys like Cole and Pacioretty better players

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Desharnais, for all the crap he gets for being small and weak is also a determined player that has gotten much better since he joined the league (on faceoffs, especially, it used to be a weakness and is now one of his strengths).
Yeah, he's really come a long way:
2010-11: 49.7%
2011-12: 49.4%
2012-13: 50%
2013-14: 50.8%

So a 1.1% increase, wow. Given that he's taken 1143 faceoffs this season, that works out to winning an extra 12 face offs over the entire season...what a warrior! What perseverance!! What dedication!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
His vision and passing in the offensive zone is perhaps the best on the team outside of Markov and maybe Subban, he thinks the game at another level and because of that plays well with other good players (and these players play well with him as a result).
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous hype. I love that the threshold for being a "good player" is now "plays well with good players"

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Because that likely doesn't count as ''facts'' for you I'll throw some quick stats. If you want an exemple of Desharnais not playing with Pacioretty then look no further than his first NHL season.

Here are the most frequent lines Desharnais played with in 2010-11 :

22.51% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 53 WHITE,RYAN
16.58% EV 52 DARCHE,MATHIEU - 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID -57POULIOT,BENOIT
6.65% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 94 PYATT,TOM
3.96% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 32 MOEN,TRAVIS - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT

You can consult the rest of the lines here

The ''best'' player he's been paired with any significant amount of time is, I suppose, Benoit Pouliot. Desharnais played with Pacioretty represents about 3% of his ice time (probably the odd shift or during line changes). That year Desharnais scored 22 points in 43 games as a rookie playing on the 4th line.

To put things in perspective, Desharnais that year had worse wingers than Eller currently has, less ice time and yet produced nearly as much (22pts vs 24) in 30 less games while being a rookie player. DD was 23yr old at the time. Eller is currently 24. Desharnais clawed his way to an NHL roster spot, all the way from the ECHL beating prejudice against both undrafted and small players, nothing was given to him. He plays with Pacioretty because he can and Max wants him as his center because he's comfortable with him.
Jesus. Are you seriously arguing that 22 points in 43 games qualifies as earning someone top PP time, top linemates, and easy minutes, which is exactly what was GIVEN to him the very next season? LMAO at prejudice too, any supportive facts for that, or is it just another false addition to the growing Cult of Desharnais? Clawed his way up, in 43 games, with 22 points.

The fact is he had a "good" 43 games, and was in no way required to "prove" anything beyond that.

Spare me the myth of "David Desharnais: Jackie Robinson of the NHL"


Last edited by Winter Eclipse: 04-05-2014 at 08:15 PM.
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Old
04-05-2014, 08:39 PM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post



Yeah, he's really come a long way:
2010-11: 49.7%
2011-12: 49.4%
2012-13: 50%
2013-14: 50.8%

So a 1.1% increase, wow. Given that he's taken 1143 faceoffs this season, that works out to winning an extra 12 face offs over the entire season...what a warrior! What perseverance!! What dedication!!!
The margin of error due to small-number statistics is approximately 100*sqrt(0.50*0.50/1200) ~ 1.4%, two times out of three, or 2.8%, 19 times out of 20. So the trend above is not statistically significant, and is actually constant with a constant mean performance and pure noise.

Most posts about face-offs are complete science fiction. If you read these boards you'd think that it makes sense to give an important face-off to a guy with a 52% F/O count over a guy with a 49% F/O count, even though 97 times out of 100 you'll get the same result on the face-off, but the players are probably of different skill away from the circle.

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04-05-2014, 10:25 PM
  #855
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Studd

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04-05-2014, 10:31 PM
  #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Seriously, what are you even talking about?.............Edit for brevity.....................Spare me the myth of "David Desharnais: Jackie Robinson of the NHL"
You are trying way too hard.

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04-05-2014, 10:34 PM
  #857
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That's a nice t-shirt he's wearing.

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04-05-2014, 10:45 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's a nice t-shirt he's wearing.
hehehe

imagine if pk wore it

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04-05-2014, 10:51 PM
  #859
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hehehe

imagine if pk wore it
I dig your sense of humour .

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04-05-2014, 11:08 PM
  #860
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Studd
Holy **** man... what is up with that shirt?

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04-05-2014, 11:18 PM
  #861
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I tire of this.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Blablabla
Honestly its just rubbish. You are so hell bent on defending those ridiculous points of yours through rhetoric that its not worth discussing with you. Any further answers would further fuel a debate that would bring us closer to a thread ban because its just all become outlandish and stupid. You automatically laugh at proof as being insufficiant while providing none of your own despite being the attacking party.

Nobody is saying Desharnais has ''generational underrated playmaking skills'', least of all myself, and by the way :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Oh, I agree. You know what else is annoying? Hypocrisy.
That was precisely to annoy you. The only time you can see me writing about fallacies of argumentation on a hockey board is when I'm writing to you.

Meanwhile I'll continue to think Desharnais is a decent top6 playmaking center, I'm sure you are furious I hold such extreme, radical and offensive opinions to heart

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04-05-2014, 11:34 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
...

Nobody is saying Desharnais has ''generational underrated playmaking skills''...
But they are

"(Desharnais is) one of the most consistent and unheralded offensive performers of his generation"

~03/04/14 Canadiens.com

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04-06-2014, 02:51 PM
  #863
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Oh boy, I remember in the last DD thread, some people would have had us believe that Pacioretty would score fewer goals with Vanek and DD because DD wouldn't be able to pass to both of them at the same time. Not only that but they acted all high and mighty over it... don't you guys feel silly now?

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04-06-2014, 02:53 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Studd
Didn't someone photoshop that shirt into saying :

I support clumsy firefighters?

I swear to god I saw the same picture but it said the above.

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04-06-2014, 02:59 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
But they are

"(Desharnais is) one of the most consistent and unheralded offensive performers of his generation"

~03/04/14 Canadiens.com
Reading 101 would help you realize that those 2 statements are very different.

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04-06-2014, 06:12 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Didn't someone photoshop that shirt into saying :

I support clumsy firefighters?

I swear to god I saw the same picture but it said the above.
Hmm prob not because the phrase "clumsy firefighters" returns a grand total of 9 Google hits and one of them is your comment! So it's not an internet thing. Maybe you dreamed of birds with hoses. People do that.

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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
Reading 101 would help you realize that those 2 statements are very different.
The Canadiens.com quote was from the announcement of DD's Masterton nomination so naturally they puffed him a bit there. I don't see how it's very different from what you wrote.

Anyway I heard Cassie Campbell would interview DD after the Ott game anyone know where there's video of that?

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04-07-2014, 11:22 PM
  #867
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Just was looking at some stats here.
I was looking for defensive pairing but it hit me in the face...

In his slump DD played with:
  • Pacioretty-DD-Brière: 6 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Leblanc: 3 games;
  • Pacioretty-DD-Bourque: 3 games;
  • Moen-DD-Bourque: 4 games;
  • Bournival-DD-Bourque: 3 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Briere: 2 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Prust: 1 game;
  • Prust-DD-Briere: 2 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Gionta: 1 game.

I do understand that he was played with Patches for 9 games (half of those games).
But besides that, the other players on his line were: Bourque, Leblanc, Moen, Bournival, Briere, Gionta and Prust.
I do not see a top-6 among those players: does anyone sees top-6?

So basically, half of the games during his slump he had one top-6 (Pacioretty of course).

If you repeat a lie enough time, it becomes the truth.
Truth is, DD was playing with Patches during his slump (only half of the games - sometimes only part of those 9 games) but he also played with a lot of third line players.

Now, you are a coach and you have DD that can produce 50+ points.
Are you trying to help him go through his slump or are you sending him to Hamilton?

I have highlighted top-6 players...

It feels like I have just kicked those DD haters in the ball so hard...
How much did we pay for him: 3.5M?
And last season: SCap was 875K?
Riddikulus

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04-08-2014, 12:09 AM
  #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Just was looking at some stats here.
I was looking for defensive pairing but it hit me in the face...

In his slump DD played with:
  • Pacioretty-DD-Brière: 6 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Leblanc: 3 games;
  • Pacioretty-DD-Bourque: 3 games;
  • Moen-DD-Bourque: 4 games;
  • Bournival-DD-Bourque: 3 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Briere: 2 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Prust: 1 game;
  • Prust-DD-Briere: 2 games;
  • Bourque-DD-Gionta: 1 game.

I do understand that he was played with Patches for 9 games (half of those games).
But besides that, the other players on his line were: Bourque, Leblanc, Moen, Bournival, Briere, Gionta and Prust.
I do not see a top-6 among those players: does anyone sees top-6?

So basically, half of the games during his slump he had one top-6 (Pacioretty of course).

If you repeat a lie enough time, it becomes the truth.
Truth is, DD was playing with Patches during his slump (only half of the games - sometimes only part of those 9 games) but he also played with a lot of third line players.

Now, you are a coach and you have DD that can produce 50+ points.
Are you trying to help him go through his slump or are you sending him to Hamilton?


I have highlighted top-6 players...

It feels like I have just kicked those DD haters in the ball so hard...
How much did we pay for him: 3.5M?
And last season: SCap was 875K?
Riddikulus
not everything is black or white...

your list of DD wingers is nice... but in case you didnt know, there's guys on this team who spent most of the season with theses "non top 6" players and yet, they managed to produce way more playing with them...


Last edited by ECWHSWI: 04-08-2014 at 12:21 AM.
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04-08-2014, 12:18 AM
  #869
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scotty bowman just praised him on [email protected] "good line! this david desjarnais (sic), the guy that was much maligned, but er, in montreal at the beginning of the season. he's a good centerman, he's on the puck, he's strong - he's not very tall, but he's strong physically [...]"

is he a moron?

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04-08-2014, 12:25 AM
  #870
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
scotty bowman just praised him on [email protected] "good line! this david desjarnais (sic), the guy that was much maligned, but er, in montreal at the beginning of the season. he's a good centerman, he's on the puck, he's strong - he's not very tall, but he's strong physically [...]"

is he a moron?
Hire Bowman for coach! And then fire him!

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04-08-2014, 12:26 AM
  #871
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
scotty bowman just praised him on [email protected] "good line! this david desjarnais (sic), the guy that was much maligned, but er, in montreal at the beginning of the season. he's a good centerman, he's on the puck, he's strong - he's not very tall, but he's strong physically [...]"

is he a moron?

for what it's worth, Bowman is also the guy who said Hjalmarsson is the next Lidstrom a few years ago...

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04-08-2014, 12:35 AM
  #872
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for what it's worth, Bowman is also the guy who said Hjalmarsson is the next Lidstrom a few years ago...
so what you're saying is that he was off by only a little bit?

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04-08-2014, 12:38 AM
  #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
...
...

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous hype. I love that the threshold for being a "good player" is now "plays well with good players"



Jesus. Are you seriously arguing that 22 points in 43 games qualifies as earning someone top PP time, top linemates, and easy minutes, which is exactly what was GIVEN to him the very next season? LMAO at prejudice too, any supportive facts for that, or is it just another false addition to the growing Cult of Desharnais? Clawed his way up, in 43 games, with 22 points.

The fact is he had a "good" 43 games, and was in no way required to "prove" anything beyond that.

Spare me the myth of "David Desharnais: Jackie Robinson of the NHL"
50 points in his last 57 games.
After 19 games nobody was expecting that...
Despite having the worst slump of his career, he has already 50+ points.
He is not the Jackie Robinson of the NHL but you have to give him his dues.
He has one 60 points season and now he is our best offensive center.

You do not want to see what is happening on the ice.
You also deny numbers (not statistics, numbers...).
BTW, he also has +10 behind Plekanec, Markov and Weaver (not enough games to judge)...

22 points in 43 games... That's .52 pgp as a rookie.
That's the same pace as Stepan (5th in rookies the same year) but playing with third line players (Pouliot, White and Darche).
That season, Grabner was ahead (but no longer...).

I see 162 points in 254 games: .638 pgp (53 points per season).
He is going toward .7 pgp (Nearly 60 points per season).

Whatever you think, fact is DD recovered from his worst slump in his career and is now a better player than ever.

The only hype here is DD hatrid.
You are wrong now and he will prove you wrong for the next 10 years.
His offense is better than ever, his defense has improved.

He is so small but he was off the ice for one game in the last four seasons (besides those two games as a healthy scratch)).

I don't understand how you can hate so much a players who is our second most productive forward this season.

You do understand that this season, our two best offense forwards are costing us 8M together...
So if we sign Vanek, we might have three players getting 70 points:
one at 7M, one at 4.5M and one at 3.5M.

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04-08-2014, 12:48 AM
  #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
scotty bowman just praised him on [email protected] "good line! this david desjarnais (sic), the guy that was much maligned, but er, in montreal at the beginning of the season. he's a good centerman, he's on the puck, he's strong - he's not very tall, but he's strong physically [...]"

is he a moron?
He's kinda right.

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04-08-2014, 12:50 AM
  #875
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
You are wrong now and he will prove you wrong for the next 10 years.
except that, dd will be 28 when next season starts... you know

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