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Ekblad what would PHI give for him

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Old
04-04-2014, 08:33 AM
  #76
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The idea that #1 defenseman come outside the first round is an outdated theory, as the large number of guys emerging these days as elite players on the blue line are being found and taken high in the draft.

Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson
Jones
Ekman-Larsson

Were all top half first round picks in the last handful of drafts. With other guys like Trouba, Hedman, Murray etc also high draft picks that look like they have top pairing potential.

Now show me a list of guys making big differences on their teams that were drafted 2008 or later.

My point is that these players are watched and analyzed much more these days than they were in the past. The current trend has seen the best defensive prospects going high in the draft.

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04-04-2014, 08:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
The idea that #1 defenseman come outside the first round is an outdated theory, as the large number of guys emerging these days as elite players on the blue line are being found and taken high in the draft.

Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson
Jones
Ekman-Larsson

Were all top half first round picks in the last handful of drafts. With other guys like Trouba, Hedman, Murray etc also high draft picks that look like they have top pairing potential.

Now show me a list of guys making big differences on their teams that were drafted 2008 or later.

My point is that these players are watched and analyzed much more these days than they were in the past. The current trend has seen the best defensive prospects going high in the draft.
Yeah, people get way too carried away with the idea that you can find number defensemen outside of the first round. Weber/Subban/Letang are not the norm. If you can only name four or five guys over thirty teams in the last ten year, then yeah, it's really pretty rare. It's the same with number one centers too.

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04-04-2014, 10:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
The idea that #1 defenseman come outside the first round is an outdated theory, as the large number of guys emerging these days as elite players on the blue line are being found and taken high in the draft.

Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson
Jones
Ekman-Larsson

Were all top half first round picks in the last handful of drafts. With other guys like Trouba, Hedman, Murray etc also high draft picks that look like they have top pairing potential.

Now show me a list of guys making big differences on their teams that were drafted 2008 or later.


My point is that these players are watched and analyzed much more these days than they were in the past. The current trend has seen the best defensive prospects going high in the draft.
That's not really a fair argument. Defensemen take a long time to develop especially when they are not a top pick. They simply don't get the oppurtunity a top pick in the draft would get. Plus thats just how defensemen develop. No one jumps in the league and dominates as a D-man. DFF's list for example

Chara Drafted 96 01-02 career highs in G and Pts 10 and 23. First Norris nomination 03-04 First team all star 2004 2009

7 years from Draft to Norris

Weber Drafted 03 08-09 is the year his offense really broke out and he was 4th in Norris voting First team all star 2011 2012

6 years from Draft to Norris

Subban Drafted 07 Pt totals have been consistent since his rookie year (09-10) but it wasn't until last year (13) that he got any Norris recognition First team all star 2013

6 years from Draft to Norris

Keith Drafted 02 Rookie year of 05-06 09-10 was first Norris votes (he won). First team all star 2010

8 years from Draft to Norris

Lidstrom Drafted 89 Rookie in 91-92 runner up for Calder to Pavel Bure First Norris 2001 First team all-star 98

12 years from Draft to Norris

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04-04-2014, 04:22 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
That's not really a fair argument. Defensemen take a long time to develop especially when they are not a top pick. They simply don't get the oppurtunity a top pick in the draft would get. Plus thats just how defensemen develop. No one jumps in the league and dominates as a D-man. DFF's list for example

Chara Drafted 96 01-02 career highs in G and Pts 10 and 23. First Norris nomination 03-04 First team all star 2004 2009

7 years from Draft to Norris

Weber Drafted 03 08-09 is the year his offense really broke out and he was 4th in Norris voting First team all star 2011 2012

6 years from Draft to Norris

Subban Drafted 07 Pt totals have been consistent since his rookie year (09-10) but it wasn't until last year (13) that he got any Norris recognition First team all star 2013

6 years from Draft to Norris

Keith Drafted 02 Rookie year of 05-06 09-10 was first Norris votes (he won). First team all star 2010

8 years from Draft to Norris

Lidstrom Drafted 89 Rookie in 91-92 runner up for Calder to Pavel Bure First Norris 2001 First team all-star 98

12 years from Draft to Norris
i understand all of those players stories fine, but that's not my point. Those players we're playing at a high level long before they were selected to an all-star team or nominated for a norris trophy. They weren't just scrubs that no one knew of until one day they were all-star, Norris calibre defensemen.

There are already franchise defensemen emerging from recent drafts (the ones i listed). I have yet to see any guys drafted late in any draft since 2008 that look to be on that track.

The recent trend is what it is, bringing up players that were drafted as far back as lidstrom does nothing except recite history.

guys simply do not slip through the cracks the way they used to.

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04-04-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
The idea that #1 defenseman come outside the first round is an outdated theory, as the large number of guys emerging these days as elite players on the blue line are being found and taken high in the draft.

Doughty
Pietrangelo
Karlsson
Jones
Ekman-Larsson

Were all top half first round picks in the last handful of drafts. With other guys like Trouba, Hedman, Murray etc also high draft picks that look like they have top pairing potential.

Now show me a list of guys making big differences on their teams that were drafted 2008 or later.

My point is that these players are watched and analyzed much more these days than they were in the past. The current trend has seen the best defensive prospects going high in the draft.
Eh.

The only trend I see is that players developed in the States, or the OHL, are drafted relatively high relative to their WHL, QMJHL, and European counterparts, which tells us exposure goes a long, long ways when trying to determine a player's projected draft positoin on draft day. Who knows? Maybe Morin will be another example.

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04-05-2014, 01:41 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Now show me a list of guys making big differences on their teams that were drafted 2008 or later.

My point is that these players are watched and analyzed much more these days than they were in the past. The current trend has seen the best defensive prospects going high in the draft.
2008 - Voynov, Josi, Hamonic, Brodie, Spurgeon, & Demers

2009 - Gelinas, Orlov, Barrie, Savard, Ekholm, & Vatanen

2010 - Faulk, Merrill, & Gudas

It's too early tell for 2010 let alone past that. You're just starting to see the 2008 class really make an impact in the NHL for the guys who weren't drafted as high.

The probability is probably better now days than it used to be but still it's a crap shoot otherwise guys like Bogosian, Schenn, & Larsson just to name a few wouldn't be disappointing right now despite being top 5 picks.

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04-05-2014, 08:57 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
2008 - Voynov, Josi, Hamonic, Brodie, Spurgeon, & Demers

2009 - Gelinas, Orlov, Barrie, Savard, Ekholm, & Vatanen

2010 - Faulk, Merrill, & Gudas

It's too early tell for 2010 let alone past that. You're just starting to see the 2008 class really make an impact in the NHL for the guys who weren't drafted as high.

The probability is probably better now days than it used to be but still it's a crap shoot otherwise guys like Bogosian, Schenn, & Larsson just to name a few wouldn't be disappointing right now despite being top 5 picks.
Some of those players are fine defenseman, no question, but that's not my point.

None of those guys are, nor do they have the ceiling to be franchise defensemen, which is what I'm arguing. All of the guys who have that capacity since the 2008 draft were taken high in the draft.

It IS in fact a trend. I'm not saying it's a given, and I'm not saying that every defenseman taken high in the draft will be a franchise defenseman, because obviously that not true. I'm just sick and tired of everyone implying that it's such a high gamble and acrapshoot, because it's really not that way anymore. It is a gamble, yes.. But some people essentially pencil Ekblad as a bust and not a franchise defenseman because he's projected to be a high draft pick, and they already have this preconceived notion that it's such a huge gamble.


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04-05-2014, 10:51 AM
  #83
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Some of those players are fine defenseman, no question, but that's not my point.

None of those guys are, nor do they have the ceiling to be franchise defensemen, which is what I'm arguing. All of the guys who have that capacity since the 2008 draft were taken high in the draft.

It IS in fact a trend. I'm not saying it's a given, and I'm not saying that every defenseman taken high in the draft will be a franchise defenseman, because obviously that not true. I'm just sick and tired of everyone implying that it's such a high gamble and acrapshoot, because it's really not that way anymore. It is a gamble, yes.. But some people essentially pencil Ekblad as a bust and not a franchise defenseman because he's projected to be a high draft pick, and they already have this preconceived notion that it's such a huge gamble.
Voynov, Josi, & Faulk could possibly be & who knows about any of the rest, Weber wasn't a franchise defensemen or even a hopeful one the moment he stepped foot on an NHL rink. It took him a few years in the league to establish himself as one.

It is a gamble & a crapshoot, for as much guys as you can point out that were successful as high end picks I can't point out guys who were disappointments or busts. If it wasn't such a risk you would see more teams year after year lining up to trade for players in the draft.

People take Ekblad for what he is worth on the surface right now, a good defensive prospect. He's not helping the team assuming he does pan out any time soon so what's the point of trading NHL talent who contribute to the team for that? Why not trade that for something that can instead?

I'm all for restocking the prospect pool as we go but Giroux is 26 in his prime so we do have to keep an eye on our immediate roster.


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04-05-2014, 11:06 AM
  #84
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Regardless of the technology & stuff available today the draft is still a crapshoot in general. There's no tool or type of info out there that tells you exactly how a player who hasn't even stepped foot on an NHL rink will be in x amount of years from now.

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04-05-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Regardless of the technology & stuff available today the draft is still a crapshoot in general. There's no tool or type of info out there that tells you exactly how a player who hasn't even stepped foot on an NHL rink will be in x amount of years from now.
There isn't. But there are scouts that know what to look for in young players that makes their game conducive to bring effective at the next level. And their craft is becoming more refined in this day and age.

You aren't getting an established defenseman that isn't on par with what we already have for anything we have. Brayden Schenn will not get you that. Period. You have to take a chance on a guy percisely like Ekblad for this team to gain what it needs; a top pairing franchise defenseman because the only way we're getting that is if we draft one with the way defensemen are valued in today's nhl.

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04-05-2014, 11:31 AM
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There isn't. But there are scouts that know what to look for in young players that makes their game conducive to bring effective at the next level. And their craft is becoming more refined in this day and age.

You aren't getting an established defenseman that isn't on par with what we already have for anything we have. Brayden Schenn will not get you that. Period. You have to take a chance on a guy percisely like Ekblad for this team to gain what it needs; a top pairing franchise defenseman because the only way we're getting that is if we draft one with the way defensemen are valued in today's nhl.
It's still nothing more than an educated guess.

Well for starters it's very debatable if Ekblad has franchise defensemen potential but even assuming he does & reaches it Giroux will be like 30 something by that time & you just wasted your franchise's best player since Lindros prime years.

You could definitely package Schenn & other assets together to get a player like Byfulgien or Gardiner. They may not be franchise defenders but they are certainly something we don't have.

That's more likely to happen than a trade for the pick to acquire Ekblad which would cost you something more than what you have been proposing seeing as the Flyers pick will be too far back to compensate a rebuilding team of a top 5 talent in the draft on top of Schenn.

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04-06-2014, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It's still nothing more than an educated guess.

Well for starters it's very debatable if Ekblad has franchise defensemen potential but even assuming he does & reaches it Giroux will be like 30 something by that time & you just wasted your franchise's best player since Lindros prime years.

You could definitely package Schenn & other assets together to get a player like Byfulgien or Gardiner. They may not be franchise defenders but they are certainly something we don't have.

That's more likely to happen than a trade for the pick to acquire Ekblad which would cost you something more than what you have been proposing seeing as the Flyers pick will be too far back to compensate a rebuilding team of a top 5 talent in the draft on top of Schenn.
oh good god sir hide yourself, these people hate big buff, they think he sucks when he'd easily be our best defenseman, but everyone else is experts on this topic

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04-06-2014, 12:15 AM
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oh good god sir hide yourself, these people hate big buff, they think he sucks when he'd easily be our best defenseman, but everyone else is experts on this topic
I was just using him as an example because his name has been floated around in rumors for a while now.

I don't have a problem with him personally but I do understand there are some red flags with him. I wouldn't be terribly upset if the Schenn's were packaged along with our fist rounder this year for him & I happen to like both Schenn's more than probably most here.

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04-06-2014, 07:46 AM
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I don't see Ekblad being a franchise d-man so I wouldn't be looking for a deal considering it would take a huge overpayment to get him.

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04-06-2014, 04:09 PM
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I was just using him as an example because his name has been floated around in rumors for a while now.

I don't have a problem with him personally but I do understand there are some red flags with him. I wouldn't be terribly upset if the Schenn's were packaged along with our fist rounder this year for him & I happen to like both Schenn's more than probably most here.
id love that deal because honestly im the only person who doesn't like or think brayden is as good as everyone else thinks, i think he's probably one of the dumbest players on the ice, his hockey i.q is pretty bad and buff would really strengthen our defense and help offensively but im the only one

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04-06-2014, 06:34 PM
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The problem with Buff is that he isn't actually very good at defense.

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04-07-2014, 01:27 PM
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The problem with Buff is that he isn't actually very good at defense.
did Winnipeg ever move him back to defense from wing?

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04-07-2014, 11:01 PM
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id love that deal because honestly im the only person who doesn't like or think brayden is as good as everyone else thinks, i think he's probably one of the dumbest players on the ice, his hockey i.q is pretty bad and buff would really strengthen our defense and help offensively but im the only one
You're the only one for a reason.

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04-08-2014, 12:56 PM
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The problem with Buff is that he isn't actually very good at defense.
You're exactly right there...Buff is better up front than on the D.
Flyers already have two very good Defensive prospects in Morin and Hagg and even Gotis and I'm willing to bet one of them will be in the lineup in a year or two, Ekblad will cost the Flyers way too much.

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04-08-2014, 12:59 PM
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Im still holding out hope that Ehlers somehow falls down the draft board. If need be I wouldn't mind moving up a few spots to take him either. I think he could be a steal if he is in the mid to late teens.

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04-08-2014, 04:50 PM
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Im still holding out hope that Ehlers somehow falls down the draft board. If need be I wouldn't mind moving up a few spots to take him either. I think he could be a steal if he is in the mid to late teens.
NHL Central Scouting has him at 13 among NA skaters. I'm really hoping he's going to be around for us, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get picked a little early.

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