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Precisely, where did they go wrong?

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Old
04-18-2014, 05:17 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Up the Irons View Post
With Mact and Eakins publicly admitting that big changes are needed and coming, it can now be said that Oilers' management has finally admitted that the rebuild has gone awry. I suppose you could say they realized this in the Tambo firing, or even when MacT was rehired. It doesn't really matter when, only that it is finally going to start happening (well, maybe).

So, where did they go wrong? And not just with 'Hiring Tambo', tho that probably is the single biggest, and most damaging, mistake made. Many point to firing Kruger and hiring Eakins, but there is no proof that the team would have been much better this season, only speculation. Chances are they would have been only marginally better. The lineup is weak, there is no getting around that. Poor management is the biggest contributor to this failure, and that includes numerous coaching changes.

I think believing they could build the whole lineup thru the draft and just give them time and it will all work out, was wrong headed from day one.

Believing that getting the support players is the easy part. Really? I would say gutting your team and drafting high is the easy part. Painful, but easy.

Finally, and I've said this many times, believing the Jordan Eberle-type skill set is the most important skill set in the game. From Shremp, to Nillsen, to signing Mitch Holmberg today, this organization loves the small dangler. Always have and, it appears, they still do.

As for actually technical mistakes. Drafting wingers about 5 drafts in a row. There are many more. discuss
for me the mistake started during the 2007 and continued onward because the top guys refused to admit a full rebuild was in order. The Souray Signing, Penner Signing, habby--signing Horcoff to a contract that was about 3 years too long. As for the 2007 draft I think we all would like to know why they took Plante and Nash so high? Plante had foot speed problem and was viewed as a project. Oilers traded up to get Nash who had told them that he was going to a uni that the oilers did not like and how the oilers handled that situation was silly (for those who remember--that fall Nash cut off all ties to the oilers and made it clear he wanted nothing to do with them).

THe moment the oilers traded Smyth till about December of the season that lead to the Hall pick--the oilers as an organization refused to admit it was a full rebuild.

I think looking at Cogliano with the Ducks is a good example of bad management by the oilers--Ducks finally did with him something we all knew needed to be done--moved him to the RW. But that is spelt milk

Where did it all go wrong? Oilers did not embrace the rebuild sooner

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Old
04-18-2014, 06:08 AM
  #102
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the one big change in drafting I would have done---is taken Murrey over Yakupov--I like Yakupov and think if the oilers trade him they wont get value for him and he will go on and score 50 goals in a season. Murray addressed the D situation prior to drafting Nurse and I think taking Murray over Yak would not have hurt our draft pick (since Murray got injured). Picture our D with Murray, Nurse, Schultz, Klefbom, Petry and Maricin in a year?

it is safe to say that no one saw Alex Galchenyuk bouncing back from his injury so strong.

only thing I would have explored more was the 2011 draft to see if we could have traded down a few spots and gained a tough third line winger and stayed in the top ten


but the damage was aleady done and the oilers needed to rebuild the rebuild already

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04-18-2014, 02:23 PM
  #103
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Where did we go wrong? Well that stems back to 2003.

The 2003 NHL Entry draft we really messed up bad. Total gong show since because of it.

Actually drafting in general has been our weakness.

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04-19-2014, 10:13 AM
  #104
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The Edmonton Oilers have issues with their foundation.

If ownership doesn't want to fix the foundation, then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to fix the team.

To me, the core of the foundation is management. The management affects the culture of the team.

Have any of you ever had a boss you absolutely LOVED due to their professionalism, and competence? Have you had a boss you absolutely loathed for the opposite reasons? I can guarantee the performance and the values of your boss directly impact your work.

The same goes for Kevin Lowe + the Old Boys club.


Even if you think of this organization as a house that is built on a sinking foundation.. fixing the drapes, cleaning the windows, and repainting the sides won't fix our problems.

Most of our fan base is starting to realise this.

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04-19-2014, 10:18 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
The Edmonton Oilers have issues with their foundation.

If ownership doesn't want to fix the foundation, then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to fix the team.

To me, the core of the foundation is management. The management affects the culture of the team.

Have any of you ever had a boss you absolutely LOVED due to their professionalism, and competence? Have you had a boss you absolutely loathed for the opposite reasons? I can guarantee the performance and the values of your boss directly impact your work.

The same goes for Kevin Lowe + the Old Boys club.


Even if you think of this organization as a house that is built on a sinking foundation.. fixing the drapes, cleaning the windows, and repainting the sides won't fix our problems.

Most of our fan base is starting to realise this.
This is exactly what I feel is the case.

Hence why I hate the "it's not Lowe, its the players" argument coming from the pro-Lowe crowd.

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04-19-2014, 12:40 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
The Edmonton Oilers have issues with their foundation.

If ownership doesn't want to fix the foundation, then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to fix the team.

To me, the core of the foundation is management. The management affects the culture of the team.

Have any of you ever had a boss you absolutely LOVED due to their professionalism, and competence? Have you had a boss you absolutely loathed for the opposite reasons? I can guarantee the performance and the values of your boss directly impact your work.

The same goes for Kevin Lowe + the Old Boys club.


Even if you think of this organization as a house that is built on a sinking foundation.. fixing the drapes, cleaning the windows, and repainting the sides won't fix our problems.

Most of our fan base is starting to realise this.
We'll said. I think KLowe is lazy. He fills every major position with one phone call. ONE!!! Not to mention, the players know they need a shakeup or at least help on D and toughness, yet what is ever done. Players don't like it when they see teammates traded for futures. It sends the message: we r not helping u guys, we r worried about the next guys.

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04-19-2014, 11:09 PM
  #107
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When we fired Charlie Huddy....our defence has never been the same

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:18 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Up the Irons View Post
so, every thing is groovy, they are right on track an any suggestion to the contrary is out of line? is that it?

ok. thank you. have a nice day.

did you look at the standings?
Complaining about a record created by players not Here.

How can we correct the players not here.

Do you know how stupid that is!

You want to fix players that are no longer here.

This is priceless.

the fact is without RNH; Hall; Perron; Gagner; Smyth
we lost a bunch of games.

With these players we were over .615% against the east and lower west.

Oh wait there is no diffrence when 5 of our top 7 scoring fwds are out.

we were destroyed by the best in the west.

But scrivens; Fasth; Marincin showed up.

we were 6-3 against ANA; VCR; PHX; MIN.

In the end we were 2-6 against SJS; LAK; STL

Blaiming a record on people who did not create it.

This is not junior High BUDDY!

3 top 30 goal scorers

short 36 even goals from lines 2 and 3.

two young Dmen successful with Schultz and Petry

Not successful with Fraser Ference.

macT talking of brining in Nurse.
who played 1st comp in his games in the AHL.

MacT saying goal scoring is a premium!

need to improve 2nd and 3rd line.

Not that hard to understand.

So while many speak of doom and Gloom.

lets look at the Nov detroit game:
LW jones; Gazdic; Hamilton; Eager
C Arco; Gordon; RNH; Gagner; Acton
RW Eberle; Yak; Hemsky

Petry-SMID
N. schultz; larsen
Ference-Belov

Labarbera
bachmann

Yup just like
hall-; Perron; XXX; hendricks
C RNH; #3 pick; gagner; Gordon; Arco
RW Eberle; Yak; XXX; XXX

Marincin-Petry
Klefbom-J. Schultz
Ference-Nurse

Scrivens
Fasth

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:24 AM
  #109
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Making the decision to build an entire team through the draft and because of that not surrounding guys like Gagner, Eberle, Hall, RNH and Yakupov with some Quality veterans to learn from. Hemsky and Horcoff were not the guys to be teaching these kids. Both of them spent their last several years here comfortable with losing and not passing on anything but that.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:48 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by bozwell View Post
the one big change in drafting I would have done---is taken Murrey over Yakupov--I like Yakupov and think if the oilers trade him they wont get value for him and he will go on and score 50 goals in a season. Murray addressed the D situation prior to drafting Nurse and I think taking Murray over Yak would not have hurt our draft pick (since Murray got injured). Picture our D with Murray, Nurse, Schultz, Klefbom, Petry and Maricin in a year?
That D is way too young. You can't win with it. It's why the Oilers won't draft Ekblad this year in my opinion.

They need to go the other way and add two veteran D somehow (it's a weak free agent pool, won't be easy). They might even need to move Petry as well, particularly if they do think Klefbom and Marincin are ready. Personally, I'd put Klefbom back in the AHL.

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04-20-2014, 01:52 AM
  #111
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The hardest thing to draft is defenseman. go look the last 20 years.. who's the best d-man we've drafted... Poti... Petry.

Our ability to identify qualaity defenceman in the later rounds is beyond pathetic.

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04-20-2014, 10:42 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bozwell View Post
the one big change in drafting I would have done---is taken Murrey over Yakupov--I like Yakupov and think if the oilers trade him they wont get value for him and he will go on and score 50 goals in a season. Murray addressed the D situation prior to drafting Nurse and I think taking Murray over Yak would not have hurt our draft pick (since Murray got injured). Picture our D with Murray, Nurse, Schultz, Klefbom, Petry and Maricin in a year?

it is safe to say that no one saw Alex Galchenyuk bouncing back from his injury so strong.

only thing I would have explored more was the 2011 draft to see if we could have traded down a few spots and gained a tough third line winger and stayed in the top ten


but the damage was aleady done and the oilers needed to rebuild the rebuild already
Of course this is hindsight. The vast majority wanted Yakupov and for the 1st year they were right.

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04-20-2014, 10:51 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Tyrolean View Post
Of course this is hindsight. The vast majority wanted Yakupov and for the 1st year they were right.
I'd still take him first, only guy who has really stood out from that draft so far has been Trouba. We'll see how Yakupov bounces back next year. I may change my mind if Yak continues the way he is but I think he'll be ALOT better.

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Old
04-20-2014, 10:58 AM
  #114
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The RNH/Yakupov years were simply bad years to tank.

Replace RNH with Tavares and Yakupov with MacKinnon and keep everything else exactly the same and this is a very different franchise.

Hall Tavares Eberle
Perron MacKinnon Hemsky

Now how's that look?

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04-20-2014, 11:32 AM
  #115
Up the Irons
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Complaining about a record created by players not Here.

How can we correct the players not here.

Do you know how stupid that is!

You want to fix players that are no longer here.

This is priceless.

the fact is without RNH; Hall; Perron; Gagner; Smyth
we lost a bunch of games.

With these players we were over .615% against the east and lower west.

Oh wait there is no diffrence when 5 of our top 7 scoring fwds are out.

we were destroyed by the best in the west.

But scrivens; Fasth; Marincin showed up.

we were 6-3 against ANA; VCR; PHX; MIN.

In the end we were 2-6 against SJS; LAK; STL

Blaiming a record on people who did not create it.

This is not junior High BUDDY!

3 top 30 goal scorers

short 36 even goals from lines 2 and 3.

two young Dmen successful with Schultz and Petry

Not successful with Fraser Ference.

macT talking of brining in Nurse.
who played 1st comp in his games in the AHL.

MacT saying goal scoring is a premium!

need to improve 2nd and 3rd line.

Not that hard to understand.

So while many speak of doom and Gloom.

lets look at the Nov detroit game:
LW jones; Gazdic; Hamilton; Eager
C Arco; Gordon; RNH; Gagner; Acton
RW Eberle; Yak; Hemsky

Petry-SMID
N. schultz; larsen
Ference-Belov

Labarbera
bachmann

Yup just like
hall-; Perron; XXX; hendricks
C RNH; #3 pick; gagner; Gordon; Arco
RW Eberle; Yak; XXX; XXX

Marincin-Petry
Klefbom-J. Schultz
Ference-Nurse

Scrivens
Fasth
Getting a bit testy r we? 4wins and 8 losses in their last 12 games.

Junior high? Check out the thread title. This not about the current lineup, this is about decisions that led to 3 first overall picks and still in the basement.... Buddy.

And if u r suggesting they never went wrong anywhere, then I say again, thank you and have a nice day.


Last edited by Up the Irons: 04-20-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Old
04-20-2014, 04:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by GMofOilers View Post
Where did we go wrong? Well that stems back to 2003.

The 2003 NHL Entry draft we really messed up bad. Total gong show since because of it.

Actually drafting in general has been our weakness.
Just for fun, what if the Oilers had instead drafted the player that was drafted directly below them?

Pick #22: Oilers: MAP. Below: Ryan Kesler
Pick #51: Oilers: Colin MacDonald. Below: Corey Crawford
Pick #68: Oilers: JFJ. Below: Colin Fraser
Pick #73: Oilers: Mikhael Zhukov. Below: Daniel Carcillo.
Pick #94: Oilers: Zach Stortini. Below: Rick Kozak.
Pick #147: Oilers: Kalle Olsen. Below: Lee Stempniak.
Pick #154: Oilers: David Rohlfs. Below: Josh Robertsen. Closest NHL player: John Mitchell (#158)
Pick #184: Oilers: Dragan Umicevic. Below: Francis Wathier. Closest NHL player: Drew Miller (#186)
Picks #214/215: Oilers: Kyle Brodziak, Mathieu Roy. Below: Kai Hospelt, Oskari Kopikari. No really close NHL players.
Pick #248: Oilers: Josef Hrabal. Below: Andrew Joudrey. Closest NHL player: Shane O'Brien (#250)
Pick #278: Oilers: Troy Bodie. Below: Mark Olafsen. Closest NHL Player: either Chris Porter (#282) or Brian Elliot (a reach at #291)

Everyone likes to talk about the hits and misses of every draft. Even in this draft, the biggest "what could have been?" was the trade down from Zach Parise. Wasn't even close to the biggest miss. This draft was a painstaking exercise in futility.

Kesler (#1/2C.) Crawford (#1G). Fraser (#4C). Carcillo (#2/3W). Stempniak (#2/3W). Mitchell (#3/4C), Miller (bottom-6er), O'Brien (bottom pairing D), Porter (Bottom-6er), Elliot (#1G) on stretches, so you can ignore them, but it's always fun to look at.

Mighta won the cup with Kesler on your fourth line in 05-06 (only NHL player by then from that list), if you really want to ret-con history.

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Old
04-20-2014, 04:35 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
The RNH/Yakupov years were simply bad years to tank.

Replace RNH with Tavares and Yakupov with MacKinnon and keep everything else exactly the same and this is a very different franchise.

Hall Tavares Eberle
Perron MacKinnon Hemsky

Now how's that look?
Better, but your not making the playoffs if Petry is your best dman, even with that forward core. We should have overpaid for Matt Carle and Erhoff or Wiesnewski would have been much better off right now.


Last edited by RaabHart: 04-20-2014 at 04:41 PM.
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Old
04-20-2014, 04:50 PM
  #118
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Where did we go wrong?

We were never that good to begin with.

During the cup run, we got by on Roloson and Pronger. We weren't a world beater, even that year.

Everyone else on that team was playing at a peak they'd - essentially - never reach again. That included Roloson, though Horcoff is the quintessential example here.

So you take Pronger out of the equation and we're left with a team that basically can't contend for a playoff spot.

We didn't have much to build on after 2006/07. Bad roster moves didn't help the situation. But they wouldn't have had to make those moves if those cup run players were better than they were.

Add questionable drafting and pro scouting to the mix and you're left with a mediocre team that just became worse.

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04-26-2014, 12:40 AM
  #119
Up the Irons
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you could almost point to a Dubnyk, Gagner, Smid, and even Hemsky (tho he was pretty good). all were 1st round picks or early projects (smid) that never reached the level the team had banked on. And they really did bank on it. Throw in the Pouliot disaster and there you have it. If these guys work out.... ahh, they'd still find a way to eff it up

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04-26-2014, 01:37 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Mighta won the cup with Kesler on your fourth line in 05-06 (only NHL player by then from that list), if you really want to ret-con history.
It's too easy to say that out of all those seasons in the draft, all those players the Oilers chose, there wasn't a gem that just didn't get polished the right way.

Take your boy Kesler for an example. He started off playing on a Vcr team that had Morrison and Sedin playing the big offensive roles, and Trevor Linden playing a defensive role in the twilight of his career. On the wings they had Naslund, Bertuzzi, Sedin, and Carter.

Despite scoring 30 goals in his last ahl season Kesler was used as a checker, and it was a victory for him every time he came off the ice and he wasn't a minus. No pressure to develop his offensive game, just go out and fill an important role while other players handle the offense.

If he came to the Oilers instead and was given an offensive role right off the hop would he still have developed into an elite player? If the coach was doing his best to get Kelser, Smyth & Horcoff on the ice against the 4th line and then expecting goals to come maybe it wouldn't have been his thing. When he came off the ice or finished a game without a point it would just be considered another loss. The coach says go to this spot, try and do this, and it's just not working out for him and he has the pressure of an nhl career bearing down on his shoulders. Maybe he was just not quite fast enough at that time, not a good enough stickhandler, not enough on-ice vision and didn't get positive results. What then?

Hemsky played 11 seasons here with two defensively responsible players and still was on the ice for more ga than gf. RNH, Hall and Eberle are all minuses here. Gagner, Yak, Petry and Schultz are all miles in the red.

There are some extremely talented players there. What if they were just a little bit less gifted offensively? Would Gagner and Yak even be in the nhl? If Hemsky was just "very good" carrying the puck through the neutral zone would he have managed 11 seasons? J Schultz is just 1 year younger than Gagner, Doughty, Pietrangelo, it's not like he has a rookie card to play. Petry is the same age as them. If they are getting beaten up to the tune of -19 and -22 is there something wrong here? Should they be getting more sheltered minutes?

Just imagine if Schultz and Petry regress a little tiny bit next season. Are Oilers fans still going to be patient? Just like they were with Brewer, Mironov, etc?

I think the Oilers went wrong when they got rid of Krueger. Petry went from a + player to a -22. Rnh went from +3 to -12...

I think that getting those players to continue to have success at this age was crucial and the Oilers needed the chart up in their head office "Is it broke? -->no-->don't **** with it -->yes-->can you blame someone else for it..."

The wave was trending up. Krueger didn't even get a training camp to work with. WTF? Time to bring back MacT to ride the wave and look like a hero.

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04-26-2014, 02:39 AM
  #121
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"Is it broke? -->no-->don't **** with it -->yes-->can you blame someone else for it...".
lol. that's a thought process that they go thru for almost everything.

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04-26-2014, 03:59 AM
  #122
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Drafting and development. Our problems start and end there. Lowe should be fired.

Avalanche had a high 2nd round pick and got O'rielly. We've had 3 high 2nd rounders and picked Pitlick, Musil, Moroz. Ouch.

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04-26-2014, 08:54 PM
  #123
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With Mact and Eakins publicly admitting that big changes are needed and coming, it can now be said that Oilers' management has finally admitted that the rebuild has gone awry. I suppose you could say they realized this in the Tambo firing, or even when MacT was rehired. It doesn't really matter when, only that it is finally going to start happening (well, maybe).

So, where did they go wrong? And not just with 'Hiring Tambo', tho that probably is the single biggest, and most damaging, mistake made. Many point to firing Kruger and hiring Eakins, but there is no proof that the team would have been much better this season, only speculation. Chances are they would have been only marginally better. The lineup is weak, there is no getting around that. Poor management is the biggest contributor to this failure, and that includes numerous coaching changes.

I think believing they could build the whole lineup thru the draft and just give them time and it will all work out, was wrong headed from day one.

Believing that getting the support players is the easy part. Really? I would say gutting your team and drafting high is the easy part. Painful, but easy.

Finally, and I've said this many times, believing the Jordan Eberle-type skill set is the most important skill set in the game. From Shremp, to Nillsen, to signing Mitch Holmberg today, this organization loves the small dangler. Always have and, it appears, they still do.

As for actually technical mistakes. Drafting wingers about 5 drafts in a row. There are many more. discuss
Man you're negative. You just exaggerate so much. Drafting wingers 5 years in a row? Lets see, Nurse, Yak, RNH, Hall, MPS. 1 D, 1 C, 2 LW, 1 RW.

And what is wrong with Eberles skillset? We could use 2 or 3 more just like him.

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04-26-2014, 09:13 PM
  #124
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When we fired Charlie Huddy....our defence has never been the same
I would agree with this. Huddy got some great results from our D with some not great names. I would welcome him back with open arms. If the Jets ever let him go, we should snap him up.

His last season here the Oilers D allowed 45 less goals that the worst D in the league. The season after he left the Oilers D allowed 17 more goals than the 2nd worst D.

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04-26-2014, 09:17 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
...

Everyone likes to talk about the hits and misses of every draft. Even in this draft, the biggest "what could have been?" was the trade down from Zach Parise. Wasn't even close to the biggest miss. This draft was a painstaking exercise in futility.

Kesler (#1/2C.) Crawford (#1G). Fraser (#4C). Carcillo (#2/3W). Stempniak (#2/3W). Mitchell (#3/4C), Miller (bottom-6er), O'Brien (bottom pairing D), Porter (Bottom-6er), Elliot (#1G) on stretches, so you can ignore them, but it's always fun to look at.

Mighta won the cup with Kesler on your fourth line in 05-06 (only NHL player by then from that list), if you really want to ret-con history.
We dodged a bullet by not drafting Parise. The guy was intent on signing with the Wild as soon as he became UFA eligible. He left NJ after the Devils made the SCF. I doubt we would have had much chance if they couldn't have. So the end result would have been we would have just prolonged that go-nowhere 2007-2009 phase of crappy picks but no playoffs, and had our first collapse last year instead of 2009.

As for the rest, just more hindsight history. Different team, different GM, different development staff, many years ago

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