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Old
04-09-2014, 08:04 AM
  #76
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
Well, Subban's play is worse, but at least he's not sulking. He's trying.

Here's what I think. Note - think. Suppositions, from how I see Therrien and PK behave on what little we see on 24CH / practices / press conferences / player interviews. I may be very very wrong, but, hey, it's the internets. Being wrong on it is what it's for. And porn. Anyway.

I feel PK is genuinely working with Therrien, Bergevin and Daigneault to be a better defenseman. Maybe even with Markov. There is no bad blood there. However, Subban is trying to play the game as Daigneault and Therrien are teaching him to, which goes in many ways against the instincts he developped throughout his life. Thus, he hesitates on the ice. It's not natural. And in the NHL, if you have to take a double take at every decision, you're going to be in trouble. You're going to be in the wrong position, your passes are going to be to the wrong player, and you're going to pinch in offensively at the wrong time.

Therrien isn't adverse to Ds pinching in offensively. Markov's doing a lot, and carries the puck to the opposing blue line regularily 5on5. Emelin started doing it lately, as did Weaver. I see Tinordi deep in as well pinching a few times per game. So, my idea isn't that the coaching team is holding PK back offensively, but instead they are trying to keep him within a game system PK's ill used to work within, and his gameplay doesn't flow like it used to.

Then, you lose confidence a bit. And you can only go down from there.

Now, I don't think we'll see anything bad coming off it. If anything, when PK talked about it to his hardass dad, he probably said something like "Son, you do what your coach tells you or else mom's not making your favorite dessert anymore. Ever.". And PK seems cut from the same cloth - he won't get pissy about it, I'm sure of it. Here's what I'm wondering however. I'm wondering if it's for the best.

Let's talk about Price. Price, under Melanson, started going bad as soon as Melanson started changing his style too much. Waite comes in, allows Price to stand up more but simply polishes his style, teaches him to use technique a bit less and instincts more, and boom. Olympic gold. Maybe PK's having the same problem - he's not made to play that style.

However, the style Daigneault and Therrien are preaching isn't all bad! Markov's been epically rejuvenated this year. Weaver seems to love it. Emelin as well, he struggled a bit when he came back but now he's a force to be reckoned with, and he's starting to be getting more dangerous offensively. So... is the problem the style, PK, or where both collide? I don't think we have the answer to that.

It might just be a transition point, and PK will emerge a better defenseman. It could be that PK's young and young players go through tough stretches. It could also be a terrible idea, which could lose PK 1-2 years of solid gameplay chasing a style he can't play well (because he'll try with all his might). If that's the case, I hope the coaching staff takes a page off Waite's book and lays off changing PK's style too much, instead working with him on a way to include his particular play style into the team's system. The fact that Waite's around the coaching staff can be good in this case, I'm sure he's talking regularily with the rest of the coaching staff.

But, I don't think PK's struggling because he's sulking, or that he won't resign with the Habs because of how it's going. At this rate, we would have lost Price a long time ago. Anyhow, we'll see in the playoffs how it's going. But personally, I'm not that worried. He's a competitor. He'll manage.
Hell of a good post.

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Old
04-09-2014, 08:13 AM
  #77
Lions999
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PK needs to play his own game, they can tell him of few things because of experience but they can`t tell what to do all over the ice. PK has to play on instinct he can not be guided how to play...let him loose because right now they have a rope on him and he is playing poorly.

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Old
04-09-2014, 08:25 AM
  #78
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Spearmint Rhino View Post
Subban seems to be playing like he did after The Count sat him in the press box a couple of years ago where's he no longer playing on instinct and talent and trying to think to much out there

Almost like there's a little mini Therrien on one shoulder yelling in his ear to play it safe and the devil's on the other shoulder telling him to go for it

So he ends up doing neither and is fighting both sides of the puck and is afraid to rush it from what I can see

MT needs to let PK be PK, think it was Gary Galley commentating earlier in the week you don't bench Norris winners
According to some, they would even scratch him.
PK gets talked about as if he's a rookie.

He's our best Dman, he's lead our team in scoring for most of the year until the recent explosion of MaxPac and is now 2nd, has a Norris at 23 already, and he gets benched. What?
People say Therrien is harder on his best players? Was Plekanec benched? Markov? MaxPac? Was Malkin? Staal? Crosby? Gonchar?

The guy is hard on PK, not his best players.

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Old
04-09-2014, 03:15 PM
  #79
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x-axis is the % of entries by player when he's on the ice.

y-axis is is the % of entries with control of the puck, eg. not a dump-in.

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Old
04-09-2014, 04:25 PM
  #80
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Wow what a risky player, keeping control of the puck like some kind of hot dog who thinks he's better than everyone else.

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Old
04-09-2014, 05:43 PM
  #81
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5 classless Subbans


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Old
04-09-2014, 05:46 PM
  #82
Teufelsdreck
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Subban isn't injured, so the problem lies in his brain. He's become a liability and a minus player lately. That's no way to go into a negotiating session unless he's hoping to be traded.

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04-09-2014, 05:56 PM
  #83
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Subban doesn't show enough effort, he looks like he's just coasting around! And he doesn't talk it up the way Gorges does!

Sigh. I'd be OK with MT's stuff if he would occasionally bench meaningful players other than PK. From comments on the Pens board he did the played games with Crosby and overplayed 3rd liners there as well. I get the impression Therrien loves effort and talent just annoys him. The guys like DD and Gorges who fight through adversity get a pass, the guys who have the tools and the mindset like Crosby and Subban get meaningless adversity.

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04-09-2014, 06:07 PM
  #84
TrevorTimmins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lions999 View Post
PK needs to play his own game, they can tell him of few things because of experience but they can`t tell what to do all over the ice. PK has to play on instinct he can not be guided how to play...let him loose because right now they have a rope on him and he is playing poorly.
people keep thinking the best thing to do is let him loose..

ok so we are gonna have a super subban on the ice and the rest of the team just watch him play because they cant or dont want to follow his childish attitude and his flashy style?

so you have this one guy, and the rest of the team united... u split the team for one guy or you force the guy to join the team? eh


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04-09-2014, 06:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
playing hockey watching hockey? lol..

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Old
04-09-2014, 06:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
This fanbase will eventually turn on Galchenyuk.
hes playing very well

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Old
04-09-2014, 06:23 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
5 classless Subbans

i was gonna say, this is a big reason to want to stay in montreal.... to find out its chicago

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Old
04-09-2014, 06:28 PM
  #88
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by TrevorTimmins View Post
people keep thinking the best thing to do is let him loose..

ok so we are gonna have a super subban on the ice and the rest of the team just watch him play because they cant or dont want to follow his childish attitude and his flashy style?

so you have this one guy, and the rest of the team united... u split the team for one guy or you force the guy to join the team? eh

Yes, PK is a cancer!

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Old
04-09-2014, 07:25 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Stop playing him with sub-NHL defensemen and get him a new coach. He'll improve infinitely.
This, especially the coach part.

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Old
04-09-2014, 07:27 PM
  #90
DJ Breadman
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
i was gonna say, this is a big reason to want to stay in montreal.... to find out its chicago
who is this puck chaser

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Old
04-09-2014, 09:09 PM
  #91
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Subban slugs around the ice this season. It seems like over the summer he put a premium on gaining mass effectively reducing his skating speed. Last season he would fly around but this season he looks like he fighting the ice. Still has that skating agility but no speed.

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Old
04-09-2014, 09:38 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Subban isn't injured, so the problem lies in his brain. He's become a liability and a minus player lately. That's no way to go into a negotiating session unless he's hoping to be traded.


either we have a huge difference in the understanding of the word "liability"...

or this post is a great example of why there is a strong case to be made that people's perception of subban is coloured by far more than his on-ice play.

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04-09-2014, 11:32 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post


either we have a huge difference in the understanding of the word "liability"...

or this post is a great example of why there is a strong case to be made that people's perception of subban is coloured by far more than his on-ice play.
Cut down on the Millers. They're imparting calories rather than insight. Your intimations are hogwash, based on your own nebulous preconceptions. What is the coloration you're hinting at? What is yours, since it can be sensed. Apparently you've overlooked Subban's steadily deteriorating +/- rating, which is in negative territory. That's unacceptable for a player with well above average skills on a better than average team. He should be accelerating, not decelerating.

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04-09-2014, 11:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Cut down on the Millers. They're imparting calories rather than insight. Your intimations are hogwash, based on your own nebulous preconceptions. What is the coloration you're hinting at? What is yours, since it can be sensed. Apparently you've overlooked Subban's steadily deteriorating +/- rating, which is in negative territory. That's unacceptable for a player with well above average skills on a better than average team. He should be accelerating, not decelerating.
You think playing him regularly with Boullion & Murray (the 2 worst +/- D's on the team) will make him do this?

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Old
04-09-2014, 11:52 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Deluded Puck View Post
You think playing him regularly with Boullion & Murray (the 2 worst +/- D's on the team) will make him do this?
I shouldn't be wasting my time when you're making lame excuses. Why is he a minus four? He was a minus again tonight while playing with Gorges. (Incidentally, Bouillon scored a goal.) PK played a good part of the season paired with Markov, who's a decided plus. His scoring has fallen off. He should be increasing it now that the Habs have Vanek.

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04-10-2014, 08:30 AM
  #96
Watsatheo
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I shouldn't be wasting my time when you're making lame excuses. Why is he a minus four? He was a minus again tonight while playing with Gorges. (Incidentally, Bouillon scored a goal.) PK played a good part of the season paired with Markov, who's a decided plus. His scoring has fallen off. He should be increasing it now that the Habs have Vanek.
The Markov-Subban pairing was a +5: http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/plusminus.html

Subban was a +14 in early January and that pairing was long over with: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...32014&view=log

Markov was +8 at same point in time. His +/- dropped significantly in December after being pairing with Emelin...if you recall he wasn't playing well early on after returning from the injury: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...96&view=splits

So how is Subban's +/- carried by Markov early in the season when it dwarfed his...

He's been -18 in the last 36 games after being +35 in the previous 167 games even playing top tough D minutes under Martin. He's literally playing the worst he has in his entire career, even as a rookie Martin was able to develop him without ****ing him up to this extent. How does a player who has been consistently improving year after year suddenly **** the bed during a period where he is coincidentally being 'coached' to improve? Oh right, he was being ****ed with the wrong way and it obviously does not work. The management is too proud to change their tactic and try something that might work and will probably either do it until Subban is complete garbage or gets traded for scraps.

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04-10-2014, 11:48 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Deluded Puck View Post
You think playing him regularly with Boullion & Murray (the 2 worst +/- D's on the team) will make him do this?
An Impact player pulls his line mates up instead of relying on his line mates to pull him up.

When you grasp what that means, you will also come to the occlusion that many posters here have come to. The decline in Subban's defensive game is troubling. Trying to blame that on his D pairing is an excuse and is disingenuous.

Overlords. See what I was referring to? One of many.

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Old
04-11-2014, 06:11 AM
  #98
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I'd like to think he is playing hurt because he is playing some kind of terrible right now. Certainly doesn't look like an 8M defenseman the last while.

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04-11-2014, 06:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, PK is a cancer!
Funny thing about that guy is he tried to start a thread on main board to backup his view because he knows Subban has a negative following around the league and 90% of the posts were "I would never lose Subban if I were the habs" or "I'd love to have him on my team"

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04-11-2014, 04:05 PM
  #100
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I don't know what the answer is....never seen a team have so many Dr. Jerylk and Mr. Hyde players. From Desharnais to Eller to Subban. Guys who were at top of their game just a few months ago now look like ECHLers.

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