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Old
04-14-2014, 10:33 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
This situation was still mysterious...did BB initiate it? Did GMGM? Did the voices convince both?

Japers did an article on that....during that 4 or 5 game losing streak the Caps actually had strong possession numbers if I recall and just had a tough time shooting wise and their goalies didn't save much of anything.

Its debatable if we even needed a change. I was against the trap then and pretty vocal about it. I was against the trap when Hanlon switched to it out of the blue as well. In general...I am against the trap!

EDIT: Also...lets go back to when Wilson was hired by McPhee and Polin. He was an all out offensive coach from the high flying Ducks.

In 97-98 we played an aggressive style backed by Kolzig and made it to the finals. I believe we missed the playoffs the following year if I'm not mistaken.

The year after...we went to the...wait for it.....TRAP! ..actually they called it the "Center Lock" built around an aging 1st line center who couldn't skate up and down the ice anylonger.

Bondra's production went way down to the point of requesting a trade.

Wilson had NO PREVIOUS history of trapping. I just found that curious....

Hanlon too...he was a very aggressive forcheck and physical play type coach. Suddenly he was not ...
Who initiated it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't an overreaction right after the MTL series. In Katie's words:

Quote:
After a 7-0 drubbing by the New York Rangers at Madison Square Garden on Dec. 12, 2010, a demoralizing loss captured on HBO’s “24/7” documentary, Boudreau chose to adapt. With the blessing of McPhee, who declined to be interviewed for this story, Boudreau used the Capitals’ next practice to introduce the trap, a defense-oriented strategy aimed at preventing opponents from moving the puck through center ice and into their offensive zone.

“What everyone forgets is that we were among the leaders in goals against that year,” Boudreau, now coach of the Pacific Division champion Anaheim Ducks, said in December. “It worked.”
I don't remember Hanlon ever being a wide open coach. Hanlon Hockey was always about teaching fundamentals like an AHL squad, keeping the puck away from the goaltender, flinging it out of the zone, keeping it wide, dumping and chasing, then cycling with no real endgame in mind.

If you're suggesting GMGM made all of these coaches change, I suppose it's possible. But I believe he's made numerous quotes to the effect that their best defense would be a good offense, that they would counter rough stuff with a world class power play, etc.

A more likely explanation is that various coaches were saddled with substandard defensemen based on GMGM's preferences and had to compensate for that to save their jobs.

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04-14-2014, 10:56 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by g00n View Post
Who initiated it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't an overreaction right after the MTL series. In Katie's words:



I don't remember Hanlon ever being a wide open coach. Hanlon Hockey was always about teaching fundamentals like an AHL squad, keeping the puck away from the goaltender, flinging it out of the zone, keeping it wide, dumping and chasing, then cycling with no real endgame in mind.

If you're suggesting GMGM made all of these coaches change, I suppose it's possible. But I believe he's made numerous quotes to the effect that their best defense would be a good offense, that they would counter rough stuff with a world class power play, etc.

A more likely explanation is that various coaches were saddled with substandard defensemen based on GMGM's preferences and had to compensate for that to save their jobs.
Yeah Hanlon was a very aggressive coach and had a hard forchecking system where they didn't hang back and went in and finished checks on the opposing D.

You're explanation is just as likely. Either way GMGM had a direct hand in the situation. I find it hard to fault the coaches.

Something made Wislon, Hanlon, and Boudreau switch from an attacking posture to a trap and it starts with the GM no matter how you dice it.

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04-14-2014, 02:15 PM
  #53
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Great article about BB.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=6918

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04-15-2014, 01:39 PM
  #54
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Never really know

After watching all the playoffs with BB in DC and now watching the Ducks there are two things that stand out. One is that he did not have the character players up to and including the team stars that he now has with the Ducks. During that time you would be hard pressed to call Ovechkin, Semin, and Green character players as compared to Gretzlaff, Selanne, Perry, and pretty much all the other Ducks players. And two, that being said, it is hard to say if he tried to implement changes in play and the players just did not execute during the playoff losses. That may have also be exacerbated by the injuries to key players that fans were not aware of.

Coaches win seasons, players win Stanley Cups.

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04-17-2014, 11:47 PM
  #55
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I think it's the other way around players win seasons, coaches win the playoffs. I think a lot of teams at the top are very close, and it's the coaching adjustments that are made over a 7 game series that win it for the most part. Also, Perry is NOT a character guy. He's about the biggest ass you'll ever find. Talented yes, good leader? Ha.

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04-18-2014, 11:08 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CDubbs View Post
After watching all the playoffs with BB in DC and now watching the Ducks there are two things that stand out. One is that he did not have the character players up to and including the team stars that he now has with the Ducks. During that time you would be hard pressed to call Ovechkin, Semin, and Green character players as compared to Gretzlaff, Selanne, Perry, and pretty much all the other Ducks players. And two, that being said, it is hard to say if he tried to implement changes in play and the players just did not execute during the playoff losses. That may have also be exacerbated by the injuries to key players that fans were not aware of.

Coaches win seasons, players win Stanley Cups.
So guys like knuble, fedorov, laich, bradley, backstrom, alzner, arnott, etc. weren't "character" players?

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04-20-2014, 08:53 AM
  #57
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the biggest prob i had with him in dc is his complete change from offense to defense. if its not working go right away dont waste ur and our time with nonsense. that includes the gm and owner too

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04-21-2014, 11:54 PM
  #58
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Interesting thread to read, from a Montreal vantage point.

My recollection of that series matches txpd, usiel and BobRouse's: the Caps thoroughly outplayed Montreal, who rode a hot goaltender. They did the same to the Pens, who were Cup contenders. Sure, the team was decent -- they made the playoffs, after all. But the Caps were dominant.

Ironically, I think Montreal's coach at the time would be an interesting coach now for Washington.

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04-22-2014, 09:25 AM
  #59
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First off...I hate ..HATE the trap.

Montreal and Martin used it on us and won. The rope a dope. But we still dominated. Got Halaked when all was said and done.

Just say NO to Martin!

BB did switch to the trap. I didn't like it at ALL. However....BB brought up a good point...it "worked". We allowed the 4th fewest goals that year.

BB even knew how to coach the trap well. Insanely good coach that our arrogant GM let slip away after he lucked into him.

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04-22-2014, 09:32 AM
  #60
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ducks playoffs are going according to the caps script. win the first two. get the infamous two game lead. then.....hot goalie. shut out. momentum shift. doom. lol....I wonder if the hockey media is already asking bruce about the choke history of his caps teams??

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04-22-2014, 09:57 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
First off...I hate ..HATE the trap.

Montreal and Martin used it on us and won. The rope a dope. But we still dominated. Got Halaked when all was said and done.

Just say NO to Martin!

BB did switch to the trap. I didn't like it at ALL. However....BB brought up a good point...it "worked". We allowed the 4th fewest goals that year.

BB even knew how to coach the trap well. Insanely good coach that our arrogant GM let slip away after he lucked into him.
You mean the insanely good coach who was getting pummeled nightly when he was fired? Or the one who coached the trap well enough to get us swept by TB (who averaged 4 goals a game in the series)?

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04-22-2014, 10:48 AM
  #62
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that coach that swept us is available. isn't he? who wants to see ovechkin playing the center ice 1-3-1?

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04-22-2014, 10:51 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
First off...I hate ..HATE the trap.

Montreal and Martin used it on us and won. The rope a dope. But we still dominated. Got Halaked when all was said and done.

Just say NO to Martin!

BB did switch to the trap. I didn't like it at ALL. However....BB brought up a good point...it "worked". We allowed the 4th fewest goals that year.

BB even knew how to coach the trap well. Insanely good coach that our arrogant GM let slip away after he lucked into him.
Martin's also coached some highly productive offensive clubs. He preaches sound defense to launch a good offense; something Washington can do well with given its quick strike offensive capabilities.

I'm not saying he ought to be hired, only that he'd be an interesting consideration.

He's widely disliked among the Habs' fanbase, but I think he's a professional who's good at understanding players' skillsets and, contrary to popular opinion, actually strong when it comes to development (see: Ottawa's core of Chara, Redden, Hossa, Havlat, Fisher, Vermette, Phillips that improved tremendously under him; Subban, Desharnais, Eller, Pacioretty in Montreal).

He's not outspoken. Has a strong track record. No one's more experienced. No history of speaking out in the media against players, or targeting players or using mind games. Might be a good change.

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04-22-2014, 10:58 AM
  #64
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Mike8

I followed Martin with the Gilmour/Federko Blues back in the 80s. He's a very defensive minded coach who preaches the trap/counter attack. He'd do fine in Nashville and New Jersey.

Not here. Not with the players and prospects we have.

If you have a team with skill then guys like Martin will hold them back. If you have a team low on skill then guys like Martin will make the sum greater than the parts.

Capsman,

1 playoff series does not define his coaching. Bruce has proven he's a very good NHL coach ever since he entered the league. He's taken two teams that were struggling bad and turned them into top 5 teams with essentially the same personnel as his predecessors over multiple years.

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04-22-2014, 11:16 AM
  #65
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Mike8

I followed Martin with the Gilmour/Federko Blues back in the 80s. He's a very defensive minded coach who preaches the trap/counter attack. He'd do fine in Nashville and New Jersey.

Not here. Not with the players and prospects we have.

If you have a team with skill then guys like Martin will hold them back. If you have a team low on skill then guys like Martin will make the sum greater than the parts.

Capsman,

1 playoff series does not define his coaching. Bruce has proven he's a very good NHL coach ever since he entered the league. He's taken two teams that were struggling bad and turned them into top 5 teams with essentially the same personnel as his predecessors over multiple years.
I think most people felt the Caps were a heck of a lot better than Hanlon had them playing. Yeah, kudos to BB easing up on the reigns, I agree. Same with Anaheim, that team had been a quality team one season notwithstanding and responded to a change of scenery with Bruce. Personally I think he has been fortunate to coach teams that were talent laden and had nowhere to go but up. I don't believe he is a guy who can develop a well rounded team or well rounded players, and I also don't think he can coach his way through tactical challenges. At least what I saw of him in DC.

Whatever the case, the Caps were crashing and burning when he was fired, McPhee had no choice but to fire him.

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04-22-2014, 11:32 AM
  #66
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I think most people felt the Caps were a heck of a lot better than Hanlon had them playing. Yeah, kudos to BB easing up on the reigns, I agree. Same with Anaheim, that team had been a quality team one season notwithstanding and responded to a change of scenery with Bruce. Personally I think he has been fortunate to coach teams that were talent laden and had nowhere to go but up. I don't believe he is a guy who can develop a well rounded team or well rounded players, and I also don't think he can coach his way through tactical challenges. At least what I saw of him in DC.

Whatever the case, the Caps were crashing and burning when he was fired, McPhee had no choice but to fire him.
The year prior the Caps had an 8 game losing streak and still ended up winning the EC.

They weren't playing great for a small stretch but its not like Hunter came in and took the team to another level.

Tactical challenges? If you mean the Montreal series this is just conjecture. We had sick puck possession to the tune of 60+% over a 7 game series. We DOMINATED the majority of those games. Again thats not on BB. Give credit to Halak and guys like Cammalleri who buried every single chance they got.

Have the Caps ever had a better coach than BB? Bryan Murray? Terry? Schoenfeld? Wilson? Cassidy? Hanlon? Hunter? Oates?

I'd say NO without hesitation. The guy should have never been fired. If anything the GM should have been fired for giving him embarrassing D corp to work with and feeding him one rookie goalie after another.

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04-22-2014, 01:42 PM
  #67
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The year prior the Caps had an 8 game losing streak and still ended up winning the EC.

They weren't playing great for a small stretch but its not like Hunter came in and took the team to another level.

Tactical challenges? If you mean the Montreal series this is just conjecture. We had sick puck possession to the tune of 60+% over a 7 game series. We DOMINATED the majority of those games. Again thats not on BB. Give credit to Halak and guys like Cammalleri who buried every single chance they got.

Have the Caps ever had a better coach than BB? Bryan Murray? Terry? Schoenfeld? Wilson? Cassidy? Hanlon? Hunter? Oates?

I'd say NO without hesitation. The guy should have never been fired. If anything the GM should have been fired for giving him embarrassing D corp to work with and feeding him one rookie goalie after another.
The 2011 stretch was much worse than the 2010 stretch in terms of how the team was losing. They were getting clobbered.

I'm really not referring to the Montreal series, although I don't believe the team created enough traffic in front of Halak and most shots were coming from the blue line. But that series is really not my biggest complaint. I had bigger issues with the Pitt and TB series.

I would argue that Bryan Murray's Caps were about as successful BB's in the playoffs and the regular season (on average). Terry Murray, who in fact had great success with the Flyers, had similar postseason success to BB. Ron Wilson's cup finals appearance pretty much put him up there in the discussion. Yeah he didn't have much success late in his Caps tenure, but BB was heading in that direction quickly anyways. Furthermore, these other guys played in tougher divisions, BB's success (as many have pointed out here) came in the SE.

One other thing I would add. The defense, while far from stellar, was not nearly as horrible as suggested. Alzner, Carlson, Hannan, Schultz, Green, Erskine (non-injured version) were no worse than mediocre. Some inexperience, yes, but Carlson played a very good series.


Last edited by Capsman: 04-22-2014 at 01:54 PM.
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04-22-2014, 02:28 PM
  #68
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The 2011 stretch was much worse than the 2010 stretch in terms of how the team was losing. They were getting clobbered.

I'm really not referring to the Montreal series, although I don't believe the team created enough traffic in front of Halak and most shots were coming from the blue line. But that series is really not my biggest complaint. I had bigger issues with the Pitt and TB series.

I would argue that Bryan Murray's Caps were about as successful BB's in the playoffs and the regular season (on average). Terry Murray, who in fact had great success with the Flyers, had similar postseason success to BB. Ron Wilson's cup finals appearance pretty much put him up there in the discussion. Yeah he didn't have much success late in his Caps tenure, but BB was heading in that direction quickly anyways. Furthermore, these other guys played in tougher divisions, BB's success (as many have pointed out here) came in the SE.

One other thing I would add. The defense, while far from stellar, was not nearly as horrible as suggested. Alzner, Carlson, Hannan, Schultz, Green, Erskine (non-injured version) were no worse than mediocre. Some inexperience, yes, but Carlson played a very good series.
1- In 2010 we got hammered 7-0 in NY to lose our 4th or 5th straight game. BB turned them around and we won the East. They should have stuck with him

2- Methinks you should watch the Montreal series again! We dominated. Had quality chances and definitely outchanced Monty. This "all our shots were from the outside" is bogus for a couple reasons....1..its not true. 2. Even if they were any shot is a good shot (as Tampa proved the very next year against us!)

3. Bryan Murray had a team with 3 HOFers on D. 1 won the Norris and the other 2 were runners up in back to back years. Young Kevin Hatcher was a force. His teams did squat in the playoffs. Terry had a good run in 89-90 and we were strong in 91-92 during the reg season. BB had 3 excellent regular seasons in a row.

Wilson is not in the discussion. Kolzig would have made me look good as the coach then. In fact put Kolzig's run on any of those BB teams and we would have made it to the finals. Kolzig played insanely good at his very peak.

4. Carlzner was too young back then and can be argued too young now. In that Tampa series we had a bunch of injuries on the blue line and players playing hurt anyhow.

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04-22-2014, 04:57 PM
  #69
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This team doesn't have the speed or skill to play a transition offense again, whether it be a trap and counter-attack style of Martin/Boucher, or a run'n'gun of early Boudreau. The only "fast" players on the team are Chimera, Johansson, Green, and Ovechkin. The only guys who can make plays at full speed are Ovie, MoJo, Backstrom, Grabovski, Green, Carrick, and Kuznetsov. As built, I wouldn't want to go for a system that emphasized scoring in transition. I'd rather play an aggressive, forecheck heavy system or one that emphasized downhill play and cycling (though, both of these things Oates attempted and failed at).

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04-22-2014, 05:22 PM
  #70
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This team doesn't have the speed or skill to play a transition offense again, whether it be a trap and counter-attack style of Martin/Boucher, or a run'n'gun of early Boudreau. The only "fast" players on the team are Chimera, Johansson, Green, and Ovechkin. The only guys who can make plays at full speed are Ovie, MoJo, Backstrom, Grabovski, Green, Carrick, and Kuznetsov. As built, I wouldn't want to go for a system that emphasized scoring in transition. I'd rather play an aggressive, forecheck heavy system or one that emphasized downhill play and cycling (though, both of these things Oates attempted and failed at).
I'm pretty sure Grabovski is faster than Ovechkin and he certainly looks as fast as Johansson (who has slowed down notably since his rookie year). Kuznetsov may be faster than Ovechkin too. I'm also really good at missing the point.

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04-22-2014, 06:23 PM
  #71
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do the caps have the base of forwards to be a heavy forechecking team? Ovechkin hits but isn't a cycle player. yea, Chimera and Ward and probably Wilson can do that. Laich if healthy.

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04-22-2014, 06:45 PM
  #72
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Boudreau would have taken this shoddily built team to the playoffs this season without a doubt.

Getting rid of Boudreau was the single biggest mistake that this franchise has ever made. He lost the locker room I've heard. I would have traded away any player(s) to get Boudreau the locker room back, including the captain. Boudreau will win a cup in his coaching career. Ovechkin is still looking for a coach that can get him there.

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04-22-2014, 07:24 PM
  #73
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Boudreau would have taken this shoddily built team to the playoffs this season without a doubt.

Getting rid of Boudreau was the single biggest mistake that this franchise has ever made. He lost the locker room I've heard. I would have traded away any player(s) to get Boudreau the locker room back, including the captain. Boudreau will win a cup in his coaching career. Ovechkin is still looking for a coach that can get him there.
The jury is out on Boudreau. Yeah, he's better than Oates. I would argue that Hunter, given better personnel, would have more playoff success as a coach. Defense wins Championships.

Bruce benefits greatly from an Anaheim team with ample leadership and ethic that he doesn't need to teach; bc I don't see the ability to.

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04-22-2014, 07:39 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
The jury is out on Boudreau. Yeah, he's better than Oates. I would argue that Hunter, given better personnel, would have more playoff success as a coach. Defense wins Championships.

Bruce benefits greatly from an Anaheim team with ample leadership and ethic that he doesn't need to teach; bc I don't see the ability to.
+1

the ducks know how to play in postseason the have been there and know how to play. bruce can motivate them and build some sort of collective.

u can argue we had leaders in dc with feds, jason arnott, etc... but i say the heavy amount of trades and injury really blew that possible advantage away.

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04-22-2014, 07:47 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
This team doesn't have the speed or skill to play a transition offense again, whether it be a trap and counter-attack style of Martin/Boucher, or a run'n'gun of early Boudreau. The only "fast" players on the team are Chimera, Johansson, Green, and Ovechkin. The only guys who can make plays at full speed are Ovie, MoJo, Backstrom, Grabovski, Green, Carrick, and Kuznetsov. As built, I wouldn't want to go for a system that emphasized scoring in transition. I'd rather play an aggressive, forecheck heavy system or one that emphasized downhill play and cycling (though, both of these things Oates attempted and failed at).
This team as currently constructed doesn't appear to be able to play any system successfully. Significant turnover is needed no matter what the system. They're a team without an identity and a roster of hodgepodge players thrown together with little thought.

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