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Thu., Apr. 10, 2014| Flyers 2 at Lightning 4

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Old
04-11-2014, 07:18 AM
  #101
Curufinwe
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Originally Posted by onlylordsvsmorebp View Post
does mason not starting tonight have anything to do with him getting bumped last game or was this berubes plan all along?
For sanity's sake I choose to believe Mason was feeling sore and needed a rest.

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Old
04-11-2014, 07:29 AM
  #102
Yukon Cornelius*
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Honestly, I have no idea what game the lot of you watched. I saw a Flyers team with a torrid compete level who was stonewalled by a hot goalie. I saw a Flyers team dominate the offensive zone time only to be done in by some ridiculously awful defensive miscues.

And not to make excuses but that ice was ridiculous last night and Fillipula's dive leading to their go ahead goal was embarrasing.

Hopefully, Schenn is benched in favour of Grossmann when he returns and Downie re-commits himself to his shut down role.

Playing the Pens on Saturday is exactly the tonic for what ails this team.

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04-11-2014, 07:38 AM
  #103
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That was just a tough game. They got zapped early on but fought back nicely and got beaten by Lindback. That's about that. Sometimes that happens. They could have played tighter D and Emery probably could have been better, but I'm not so sure it would have matter with the way Lindback was playing.

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Old
04-11-2014, 07:38 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius View Post
Honestly, I have no idea what game the lot of you watched. I saw a Flyers team with a torrid compete level who was stonewalled by a hot goalie. I saw a Flyers team dominate the offensive zone time only to be done in by some ridiculously awful defensive miscues.

And not to make excuses but that ice was ridiculous last night and Fillipula's dive leading to their go ahead goal was embarrasing.

Hopefully, Schenn is benched in favour of Grossmann when he returns and Downie re-commits himself to his shut down role.

Playing the Pens on Saturday is exactly the tonic for what ails this team.
That should explain a lot right there.

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04-11-2014, 07:41 AM
  #105
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So, a low shooting percentage and a low save percentage did them in again?


You don't say.

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04-11-2014, 07:48 AM
  #106
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Not even Mac's team leading CF% of 70 could save them.

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Old
04-11-2014, 08:02 AM
  #107
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So, a low shooting percentage and a low save percentage did them in again?


You don't say.
I was going to say. How many times are we going to say that the team just ran into a hot goalie and not blame the actual team for not being able to shoot?

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04-11-2014, 08:18 AM
  #108
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Honestly I'm glad Mason didn't get the start, I'd rather him rest before the playoffs and also lessen the chance of him getting hurt. I was expecting Emery to get 2 starts out of the final 3 games after Florida. At this point I don't really think it matters who we play in the first round, all possible opponents look tough (Rangers, Penguins, Bruins). Although out of the three I'd want to avoid the Bruins of course.

On another note, why the hell do the Tampa Bay Lightning keep beating the **** out of the Flyers every season since 2004?!
Playing Boston would matter to a lot of people. Boston is clear and above the rest of the East in most peoples eyes. We also got swept in the regular season by them.

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04-11-2014, 08:26 AM
  #109
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As far as the shooting percentage goes we likely won't have one 30 goal guy come seasons end. Bunch of 20+ but nobody at 30 or above likely.

30 goal scorers don't grow on trees, but most good teams have somebody. Just pointing out maybe the reason we have trouble finishing is that we don't have any high-end goal-scorers and our best scorers are either playmakers first (Voracek, Giroux) or crease crashes (Hartnell, Simmonds). We don't really have anyone that's good at shooting the puck a lot. Boston and St. Louis get their scoring done by committee but they're also responsible defensively throughout the lineup and have guys already at 30 goals on the year. This team isn't responsible defensively throughout the lineup and doesn't have a 30 goal guy. So scoring by committee obviously won't work like it does for Boston for instance.

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04-11-2014, 08:37 AM
  #110
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I do think we need a line shakeup. I dont know if it is smart to do something big with playoffs just ahead, but lets be serious here for a second, the current lineup can not score goals. I do agree with you Garbage Goal, that the team does not have a goal scoring type of player. I know someone will say Schenn, but right now he is not.

Berube seems set on keeping his lineups the same no matter what but I would try.

Schenn-Giroux-Read
Hartnell-Couturier-Voracek
Simmonds-Lecavalier-Raffl
Downie-Hall-McGinn

I do question why Schenn hasnt seen any time on Giroux's wing. My only theory is by looking at the type of coach Berube is. He is the anti-Stevens. Stevens would completely re-do his lineup every game. Berube likes to keep players together no matter what. Change, in this scenario, would be a good thing. The team is struggling to score goals right now and its not because every goalie we run into is hot.

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04-11-2014, 08:56 AM
  #111
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Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Couturier-Read
Lecavalier-Raffl-Simmonds
Downie-Hall-McGin

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04-11-2014, 09:08 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I do think we need a line shakeup. I dont know if it is smart to do something big with playoffs just ahead, but lets be serious here for a second, the current lineup can not score goals. I do agree with you Garbage Goal, that the team does not have a goal scoring type of player. I know someone will say Schenn, but right now he is not.

Berube seems set on keeping his lineups the same no matter what but I would try.

Schenn-Giroux-Read
Hartnell-Couturier-Voracek
Simmonds-Lecavalier-Raffl
Downie-Hall-McGinn

I do question why Schenn hasnt seen any time on Giroux's wing. My only theory is by looking at the type of coach Berube is. He is the anti-Stevens. Stevens would completely re-do his lineup every game. Berube likes to keep players together no matter what. Change, in this scenario, would be a good thing. The team is struggling to score goals right now and its not because every goalie we run into is hot.
I like the look of that lineup. Some people are going to kick and scream because we lose the shutdown pair of Couturier/Read, but this is a lineup that really plays to the strengths of the personnel.

I also wouldn't be opposed to:
Schenn-Giroux-Read
Raffl-Couturier-Voracek
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Downie-Hall-McGinn/Rinaldo

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04-11-2014, 09:17 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
the current lineup can not score goals.
Because if how structured the game has gotten, the vast majority of 5 on 5 goals in the NHL are scored in transition or off of turnovers. The flyers defense as a group struggle to transition the puck. They are also a liability as far as turnovers that the flyers forwards have to stay back to help. The forwards as a whole are slow and very few can actually skate by anybody. So if the defense can't move the puck and the forwards can't skate by anybody, the other team will always have players back to defend. I don't think it is hyperbole to say the flyers might have the least amount of odd man rushes all season of any playoff team.

Capitalizing off of turnovers is also a matter of speed and poor defensemen. The flyers do have the size to create turnovers down low but not the speed to create mismatches after they create them. Couturier steals the puck a lot at the flyers blueline and is engulfed by defenders before he hits the opponents. Boston is a big team that isn't particularly fast but that have the defensemen to make up for it. They have two of the top ten goal scoring defensemen in the entire league in Chara and Krug. How many times do they create a turnover down low and send it back to the point for a shot? The flyers do that and the shot hits the glass wide of the net.

The flyers can overcome these deficiencies by playing a highly structured game like New Jersey use to, as that team was not fast or big but would create enough turnovers a game thru their system to get the few goals it needed to win. The problem is the Flyers don't have the players disciplined enough to play a highly structured system over the long haul, though we have seen spurts thru the season. Hopefully they can get it together in time.

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04-11-2014, 09:31 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Because if how structured the game has gotten, the vast majority of 5 on 5 goals in the NHL are scored in transition or off of turnovers. The flyers defense as a group struggle to transition the puck. They are also a liability as far as turnovers that the flyers forwards have to stay back to help. The forwards as a whole are slow and very few can actually skate by anybody. So if the defense can't move the puck and the forwards can't skate by anybody, the other team will always have players back to defend. I don't think it is hyperbole to say the flyers might have the least amount of odd man rushes all season of any playoff team.

Capitalizing off of turnovers is also a matter of speed and poor defensemen. The flyers do have the size to create turnovers down low but not the speed to create mismatches after they create them. Couturier steals the puck a lot at the flyers blueline and is engulfed by defenders before he hits the opponents. Boston is a big team that isn't particularly fast but that have the defensemen to make up for it. They have two of the top ten goal scoring defensemen in the entire league in Chara and Krug. How many times do they create a turnover down low and send it back to the point for a shot? The flyers do that and the shot hits the glass wide of the net.

The flyers can overcome these deficiencies by playing a highly structured game like New Jersey use to, as that team was not fast or big but would create enough turnovers a game thru their system to get the few goals it needed to win. The problem is the Flyers don't have the players disciplined enough to play a highly structured system over the long haul, though we have seen spurts thru the season. Hopefully they can get it together in time.
It always comes back to "do you change the system for the players or do you change the players for the system". There is no one system that works luckily. Right now, we have one legit scorer on the team followed by good but not tremendous scorers. Voracek would be right under Giroux but he is not a go to guy if Giroux goes through a struggling stretch.

I somewhat agree with you but at the same time I dont think Timonen, Streit and MacD are the worse puckmovers in the world. Not every team has 2-3 elite puck movers. That being said even I agree the defense needs a major overhaul. It definitely is stale. There are three ways to solve this. Trades which you will decrease in power a forward group which is good but I would not put in the strong category. Free Agency where you overpay for players on the same level as the players we currently have. Or wait for your prospects to develop which if they do is great but if not you are still waiting for that defender to lead this team.

The defense is this teams main problem but I would not put all the blame on them for the offense struggles. Typical passes that miss the target is an example. Giroux setting up Voracek and Hartnell 2-3 times a game for them to not convert is also a problem.

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04-11-2014, 09:59 AM
  #115
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I'm not sure why people get outraged after a game like this. They are playing near their capabilities. What is there to be upset about? They played pretty well but were burned by the flaws with the roster's construction that we all should have known about by now. As it stands, the team needs everything to go right to beat the best teams in the league consistently.

This game sums up the team's problems easily
- Lack of players that can shoot the puck and score (See the flurry of activity on a bad backup with only 2 goals to show for it)
- Lack of defensive aptitude from our forwards as a whole (See the blown assignment on Brewer goal)
- In today's NHL your defense needs to be able to skate and skate with the puck. Timonen and Streit can do it. Coburn can skate but is really not that great in transition. Gus' development has been stunted, and Schenn and Grossmann are useless in this regard. McD is OK at it but has a propensity for turnovers. (Lightning gobbled us up in transition)

It's time now to waive the white flag on the JVR trade. Having JVR in this lineup would be huge and Schenn is close to becoming a liability. Trading away JVR and Carter has really hurt in that we rely too much now on power play scoring and at even strength garbage goals, which puck luck has more of an effect on.

The question now should be do we have the right young pieces to construct a proper roster in 2-3 years? I lean to yes but as of now Holmgren hasn't displayed the acumen to put together the roster properly. For today's purposes, all we can hope is that our current young pieces can develop properly with the experience

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04-11-2014, 10:04 AM
  #116
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They can play a lot better than they have in the last three games. They've been very sloppy defensively.

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04-11-2014, 10:05 AM
  #117
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This is precisely why I hoped Steve Downie didn't recover.

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04-11-2014, 10:24 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
I'm not sure why people get outraged after a game like this. They are playing near their capabilities. What is there to be upset about? They played pretty well but were burned by the flaws with the roster's construction that we all should have known about by now. As it stands, the team needs everything to go right to beat the best teams in the league consistently.

This game sums up the team's problems easily
- Lack of players that can shoot the puck and score (See the flurry of activity on a bad backup with only 2 goals to show for it)
- Lack of defensive aptitude from our forwards as a whole (See the blown assignment on Brewer goal)
- In today's NHL your defense needs to be able to skate and skate with the puck. Timonen and Streit can do it. Coburn can skate but is really not that great in transition. Gus' development has been stunted, and Schenn and Grossmann are useless in this regard. McD is OK at it but has a propensity for turnovers. (Lightning gobbled us up in transition)

It's time now to waive the white flag on the JVR trade. Having JVR in this lineup would be huge and Schenn is close to becoming a liability. Trading away JVR and Carter has really hurt in that we rely too much now on power play scoring and at even strength garbage goals, which puck luck has more of an effect on.

The question now should be do we have the right young pieces to construct a proper roster in 2-3 years? I lean to yes but as of now Holmgren hasn't displayed the acumen to put together the roster properly. For today's purposes, all we can hope is that our current young pieces can develop properly with the experience
I think there's plenty of reason to be mad or disappointed, but that's pretty spot-on analysis of the team.

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04-11-2014, 10:35 AM
  #119
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It always comes back to "do you change the system for the players or do you change the players for the system". There is no one system that works luckily. Right now, we have one legit scorer on the team followed by good but not tremendous scorers. Voracek would be right under Giroux but he is not a go to guy if Giroux goes through a struggling stretch.

I somewhat agree with you but at the same time I dont think Timonen, Streit and MacD are the worse puckmovers in the world. Not every team has 2-3 elite puck movers. That being said even I agree the defense needs a major overhaul. It definitely is stale. There are three ways to solve this. Trades which you will decrease in power a forward group which is good but I would not put in the strong category. Free Agency where you overpay for players on the same level as the players we currently have. Or wait for your prospects to develop which if they do is great but if not you are still waiting for that defender to lead this team.

The defense is this teams main problem but I would not put all the blame on them for the offense struggles. Typical passes that miss the target is an example. Giroux setting up Voracek and Hartnell 2-3 times a game for them to not convert is also a problem.
You change the players.

I may sound crazy, but this team is not far from being a contender. We have a #1 center, an elite defensive center, and a legitimate starting goalie. The big missing pieces are a legit goal scoring threat and a #1 D.

The goal scoring threat could be Schenn, or someone we can acquire. The D man is not coming without gutting the team.

The way our team is constructed right now leaves us with too many slow players that can't think the game or handle the puck. We need to transition our depth into a more mobile, puck skilled group, starting with the defense and the 4th line.

Sounds odd to say the 4th line, but it's the easiest, cheapest thing to upgrade, and there can be great bang for your buck there. Players like Betts, Lappy, Powe etc, make you able to roll 4 lines, and a 4th line like that allows you to put Couturier into some offensive minutes.

For the D Coburn is an absolute must to stay unless he's being moved in a package for Weber or someone like that. The D needs to be retooled with good skaters who can handle the puck. Grossmann and/or Schenn need to be moved. I would probably try to hold onto Schenn because you don't want to lose all physicality.

Ideally we'd find these players in our system, and I think we can find a couple. The 4th line in particular can be upgraded with Laughton, and an AHLer/4th liner that plays a simple defensive game like Wellwod. A plug, yes, but a big upgrade from Rinaldo/Rosehill.

As for the D Gustaffson would do, but ideally you'd want someone larger or more talented. Maybe Ghost will be ready for bottom pairing minutes next year?

It will take a lot of work from Homer, but I think this team can be a contender in 1-2 years.

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04-11-2014, 10:40 AM
  #120
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It always comes back to "do you change the system for the players or do you change the players for the system". There is no one system that works luckily. Right now, we have one legit scorer on the team followed by good but not tremendous scorers. Voracek would be right under Giroux but he is not a go to guy if Giroux goes through a struggling stretch.

I somewhat agree with you but at the same time I dont think Timonen, Streit and MacD are the worse puckmovers in the world. Not every team has 2-3 elite puck movers. That being said even I agree the defense needs a major overhaul. It definitely is stale. There are three ways to solve this. Trades which you will decrease in power a forward group which is good but I would not put in the strong category. Free Agency where you overpay for players on the same level as the players we currently have. Or wait for your prospects to develop which if they do is great but if not you are still waiting for that defender to lead this team.

The defense is this teams main problem but I would not put all the blame on them for the offense struggles. Typical passes that miss the target is an example. Giroux setting up Voracek and Hartnell 2-3 times a game for them to not convert is also a problem.
Your right the defense isn't the only problem. The forward mix is poor IMO with too many grinders, grinders without defensive awareness as well, and not enough skill. B. Schenn, Hartnell, Simmonds, and Downie are all net crashers who can't create their own offense. B. Schenn actually tries and fails a lot at creating his own offense and would be better suited simplifying his game.

I am fine moving offense for defense. Defensemen take longer to develop and the flyers has shown a propensity for drafting top notch forwards in round 1. They really wouldn't need to acquire too many with the prospect system ripening over the next few years.

The most important thing the Flyers need is an identity. Holmgren has for the most part a good eye for talent but a poor ability for making a team. He seems to acquire too many one dimensional players and not enough all around guys to glue them together. I like the Boston model with two way forwards and skilled defensemen. The Flyers have a good base to do that right now with Read, Couturier, Raffl on the team at forward and Laughton and Leier coming soon with a nice defense prospect group.

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04-11-2014, 10:42 AM
  #121
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Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Couturier-Read
Lecavalier-Raffl-Simmonds
Downie-Hall-McGin
Are you kidding? You want to put the dumbest player on the team on the shutdown line so he can turn over the puck constantly as they try to leave the zone? Good idea.

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04-11-2014, 10:43 AM
  #122
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Putting Vinny back to LW is an even worse idea.

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04-11-2014, 10:53 AM
  #123
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Are you kidding? You want to put the dumbest player on the team on the shutdown line so he can turn over the puck constantly as they try to leave the zone? Good idea.
Hartnell is a solid defensive winger. He takes dumb offensive zone penalties when he tries to do too much, but he is a good back checker and works hard. You're also talking about a line that features Steve Downie in that spot.

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Putting Vinny back to LW is an even worse idea.
He has no place on this team. You can only move the pieces into so many places.

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04-11-2014, 11:05 AM
  #124
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Hartnell is a solid defensive winger. He takes dumb offensive zone penalties when he tries to do too much, but he is a good back checker and works hard. You're also talking about a line that features Steve Downie in that spot.



He has no place on this team. You can only move the pieces into so many places.
Hartnell's an idiot, don't put him anywhere near Read and Couturier. I don't want Downie there either but you don't swap idiots, you get rid of both.

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04-11-2014, 11:31 AM
  #125
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Hartnell's an idiot, don't put him anywhere near Read and Couturier. I don't want Downie there either but you don't swap idiots, you get rid of both.
That's kind of hard to do at this point in the season. Believe it or not Hartnell is probably our 3nd or 4th best defensive winger behind Read, Raffl, and possibly Voracek.

This team has too many hockey dumb players, and not enough guys with good defensive instincts. The lines I had have at least one capable defensive player on each of them. That way you don't end up with the problem of having the Simmonds-Lecavalier-Schenn being pinned in their own zone the entire time.

Think about the fact that flipping Hartnell and Vinny actually made that line effective. It's because Hartnell is actually pretty defensively responsible. Or he at least works hard.

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