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Old
08-22-2005, 08:56 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
When did I say that Lacroix signed lots of big name UFAs? In fact, I'd like you to find a SINGLE mention of acquired UFAs in any of my posts about Lacroix. If you are going to want to dispute that point, you should just open up a MS-Word document on your desk and argue with yourself - because I never even hinted at that.
Never hinted? Tell me how I misinterpreted the following quote from you above as having to do with spending money on UFAs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
2) $ to spend on UFAs and high salary players,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
And, incidently, what role did Lacroix have in the drafts of Sakic, Foote, and the acquisition of Forsberg?
And that renders his management over the past decade meaningless?

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08-22-2005, 09:07 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoHockeyFan
Never hinted? Tell me how I misinterpreted the following quote from you above as having to do with spending money on UFAs:




And that renders his management over the past decade meaningless?
You are distorting my point, which I really do not appreciate. I didn't mean that Lacroix had build primarily through UFA signings. I meant that he used dollars to buy players like Blake (who, for all intensive purposes was an UFA). As I recall, several of the players on the current team had actually hit UFA status or where on their way before Lacroix got out the checkbook (like Sakic). The fact is that Col, like the Wings and Flyers, have been in the fortunate position of being able to buy and sign players as needed.

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08-22-2005, 09:52 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You are distorting my point, which I really do not appreciate. I didn't mean that Lacroix had build primarily through UFA signings. I meant that he used dollars to buy players like Blake (who, for all intensive purposes was an UFA). As I recall, several of the players on the current team had actually hit UFA status or where on their way before Lacroix got out the checkbook (like Sakic). The fact is that Col, like the Wings and Flyers, have been in the fortunate position of being able to buy and sign players as needed.
To be fair on the Sakic point it was the Rangers who broke out our checkbook.

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08-22-2005, 10:30 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
To be fair on the Sakic point it was the Rangers who broke out our checkbook.
true.

My main point with regard to dollars was not that Lacroix had been a bigger signer of UFAs, or even that he had been excessive in spending. I just think the Avs benefited from good finacial resources. Flyers, Avs, Wings, and a few other teams, were fortunate to have ownership that allowed big contracts.

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08-22-2005, 10:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
true.

My main point with regard to dollars was not that Lacroix had been a bigger signer of UFAs, or even that he had been excessive in spending. I just think the Avs benefited from good finacial resources. Flyers, Avs, Wings, and a few other teams, were fortunate to have ownership that allowed big contracts.
To an extent, the Avs financial shape wasn't always that great. Revenues at McNichols weren't all that hot which is why the Rangers thought they could get Sakic. Lacroix walked away from his share of players too. I'm sure there are plenty of untalented GMs who have been able to hide behind the budget excuse that aren't going to do well (like Sather has with the Rangers.)

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08-22-2005, 11:10 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
To an extent, the Avs financial shape wasn't always that great. Revenues at McNichols weren't all that hot which is why the Rangers thought they could get Sakic. Lacroix walked away from his share of players too. I'm sure there are plenty of untalented GMs who have been able to hide behind the budget excuse that aren't going to do well (like Sather has with the Rangers.)
Sather is the one GM I can think of that had a lot of $ to spend, but still built a lousy team.

To his credit, he did a nice job of turning it all around at the deadline last year.

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08-22-2005, 11:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Sather is the one GM I can think of that had a lot of $ to spend, but still built a lousy team.

To his credit, he did a nice job of turning it all around at the deadline last year.
And freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

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08-23-2005, 12:41 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You are distorting my point, which I really do not appreciate. I didn't mean that Lacroix had build primarily through UFA signings. I meant that he used dollars to buy players like Blake (who, for all intensive purposes was an UFA). As I recall, several of the players on the current team had actually hit UFA status or where on their way before Lacroix got out the checkbook (like Sakic). The fact is that Col, like the Wings and Flyers, have been in the fortunate position of being able to buy and sign players as needed.
Darth, I understand, respect and agree with your point in regards to Pierre Lacroix having the "cheque book" and budget to acquire such player and retain their rights.

None the less, there is a massive difference between the likes of Lacroix and the likes of Ken Holland or Bobby Clarke(the two teams you mentioned). Both of Holland and Clarke went out and signed massive free agents who were always at the top of the free agent class. Lacroix, prior to the Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne signings(which came at a massive cut and something he could not turn down), his previous highest signing was either Dave Reid, Todd Gill, etc... take your pick.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Lacroix has done, and that is trade assets(prospects, player, draft picks) to acquire the "stars" and then pay what it takes to keep them here. There's a huge difference between signing free agents, and giving up quality assets to acquire them. Had Colorado not acquired Raymond Bourque at the deadline, I highly doubt they sign him as a free-agent in the summer. The same goes with Rob Blake. Trades such as the Theoren Fleury and Darius Kasparaitis trades saw Lacroix give up assets and be unable to retain them in the summer, actually not even giving Fleury an offer.

So, I ask... what is so wrong with paying what it costs to keep your players?

Lacroix's tactics have been nothing like Holland, nor Clarke.

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08-23-2005, 02:26 AM
  #59
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Lacroix and the Avs actually did NOT have a lot of $ to spend for quite some time and they won the cup in 96' in spite of an owner that was darn near broke. Ascent Entertainment didn't have a lot of money and Lacroix didn't have a lot to spend because of it. In fact, when the Rangers offered the RFA Sakic a large offer Ascent had to really scramble to find the cash to keep him. If it were not for the highly successful movie Airforce One and the money it brought Ascent, Sakic would not have been signed.

Blake wasn't plucked off the free agent heap for nothing either. The Avs had to move Deadmarsh and Miller and Aulin in order to get him and Reinprecht. At the time Deadmarsh was a very solid 2nd line winger, Miller a solid dman, and Aulin a bright prospect. The fact that Deadmarsh had concussion issues that shortened his time in LA was after the fact.

Roy wasn't plucked off the free agent heap either. The Avs had to give up Thibault, Kovalenko and Rucinsky to get Roy and Keane. At the time, many were saying Roy was done and that his time was nearly up. Roy, and the Avs, certainly proved the doubters wrong in retrospect.

Bourque was also brought in although the Avs had to give up Rolston and Phalsson I believe.

Other than the bargain basement Selanne and Kariya, the Avs over the years had to give up resources in order to bring in the players that they did. They didn't just find them for bargain basement prices. Kariya and Selanne didn't do much for the Avs so losing them isn't going to reveal a drastic slip in production.

Dumping Nolan for Ozolinsh was a good move at the time. The Avs needed an offensive defensman and Ozo helped them win the cup in 96. Well worth it.

The Drury deal right now looks to be a mistake in my opinion. Drury would look mighty good centering that 2nd line this year.

Losing Vrbata for Battaglia was a horrible move although Konowolchuk was good medicine for that ailment..

Fluery didn't exactly turn out too good either.

Losing Forsberg and Foote may or may not have been avoidable. Lacroix chose to keep Sakic, Blake, Hedjuk, and Tanguay instead. It's unlikely he could have kept them all and still filled out a 23 man roster. Time will tell if it was the right move or not.

Lacroix, like any GM, must be judged on results; wins and losses. The bottom line is that the Avs have had a 10 year run where they won the division 9 times, they went to the Western Finals 5 times, and won 2 Stanley Cups. It wasn't all done with $ and it wasn't all done with Quebec personnel.

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08-23-2005, 02:30 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Darth, I understand, respect and agree with your point in regards to Pierre Lacroix having the "cheque book" and budget to acquire such player and retain their rights.

None the less, there is a massive difference between the likes of Lacroix and the likes of Ken Holland or Bobby Clarke(the two teams you mentioned). Both of Holland and Clarke went out and signed massive free agents who were always at the top of the free agent class. Lacroix, prior to the Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne signings(which came at a massive cut and something he could not turn down), his previous highest signing was either Dave Reid, Todd Gill, etc... take your pick.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Lacroix has done, and that is trade assets(prospects, player, draft picks) to acquire the "stars" and then pay what it takes to keep them here. There's a huge difference between signing free agents, and giving up quality assets to acquire them. Had Colorado not acquired Raymond Bourque at the deadline, I highly doubt they sign him as a free-agent in the summer. The same goes with Rob Blake. Trades such as the Theoren Fleury and Darius Kasparaitis trades saw Lacroix give up assets and be unable to retain them in the summer, actually not even giving Fleury an offer.

So, I ask... what is so wrong with paying what it costs to keep your players?

Lacroix's tactics have been nothing like Holland, nor Clarke.
When did I say that Lacroix had done anything "wrong?"

My ONLY point was that Lacroix is not the genius some of you have made him out to be be (see the above poster bragging about how "Sneaky Pete" could swindle Parrish or any other player off the Island). I think Lacroix has done an OK job. I doubt he would be capable of winning in a less advantaged situation though, and I also think he has made some mistakes. He is a good, not great, hockey executive.

Again, just so we are clear and we can get away from all the extremes in this thread. I am specifically NOT saying that:

1) Lacroix is a "Bad" GM
2) Lacroix has done anything "wrong."
3) Lacroix bought a cup.

What I am saying is that:

1) The AVs were built into a strong team PRIMARILY (but not exclusively) though factors that had nothing to do with Lacroix including the youth given to him by the Nords franchise and Roy falling into his lap.
2) I do think Lacroix has benefited from good financial resources. Not saying that he bought a team, but doubt he would have had much success in a low budget city like Tampa or Ottawa.
3) I think Lacroix made some Milbury-class blunders over the years (Regehr for Fleury, Sundin for Clark) that get ignored because of the cups.

But, like I said, he do think he is a good GM and think he used his resources appropriately. I just don't think he is a "great" GM.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 08-23-2005 at 02:42 AM.
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08-23-2005, 02:40 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
When did I say that Lacroix had done anything "wrong?"

My ONLY point was that Lacroix is not the genius some of you have made him out to be be (see the above poster bragging about how "Sneaky Pete" could swindle Parrish or any other player off the Island). I think Lacroix has done an OK job. I doubt he would be capable of winning in a less advantaged situation though, and I also think he has made some mistakes. He is a good, not great, hockey executive.
That is rather uncharitable considering the prospective competition he'd be up against.

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08-23-2005, 02:44 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
One of the more moronic comments this evening.

Thanks for your insight and welcome to the ignore list.
Haven't you gone on about what an idiot Milbury is?

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08-23-2005, 02:47 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
Haven't you gone on about what an idiot Milbury is?
He is an idiot, no doubt.

I guess I would have liked to have been able to have a semi-intelligent discussion about Lacroix and the job he did as AV GM with going back to the silly "Yeah it is a dumb deal but it is Mad Mike" stuff all over again.

Of course, I was being a total idiot there myself. Sorry for being so hostile. I've actually rather enjoyed your deadpan humor tonight, and there was no reason for me to jump down your throat.

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08-23-2005, 02:51 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
He is an idiot, no doubt.

I guess I would have liked to have been able to have a semi-intelligent discussion about Lacroix and the job he did as AV GM with going back to the silly "Yeah it is a dumb deal but it is Mad Mike" stuff all over again.

Of course, I was being a total idiot there myself. Sorry for being so hostile. I've actually rather enjoyed your deadpan humor tonight, and there was no reason for me to jump down your throat.
Forgiven.

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08-23-2005, 03:06 AM
  #65
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Don't worry about it, Darth.

Hasbro's throat is always open for stuffing(WITH WORDS, YOU SICKOS) and jumping down! He'll fight for the Avs 'till the death.


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08-23-2005, 09:38 AM
  #66
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08-22-2005, 07:43 PM:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
He is an OK GM
08-23-2005, 01:30 AM:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
he is a good GM
All right, we're making some progress.

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08-23-2005, 10:02 AM
  #67
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Lacroix has benefitted from an outstanding Scouting team, thats let them have a great mix of hits, plus some wheeling and dealing to get some pieces in place.

All GMs make blunders/tactical errors (fleury). To be a good GM invites risk, rewards, and mistakes. Despite this, Avs have remained a top playoff team, with definately a bit of a drop-off since Roy retired. But Avs have been competitive and in the mix since Quebec, and since the Lindros trade. Lacroix has been an integral part of that, and a very savvy and top GM. I don't think he's merely good. I think he's merely one of the brightest and most successful in the last decade.

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08-23-2005, 10:52 AM
  #68
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Gooch - you drive me insane! You're another one of those posters that disagree with me in such a lucid and thoughtful way that I have difficulty fighting back.

Anyway, my take on this is that it is really hard to judge Lacroix. The main piece of those AV teams were acquired by other GMs, not Lacroix. One could argue that he managed his assets well enough to win two cups - but I have wonder how much further the Avs would have gone if they had kept Sundin (critical error there), Regehr, Deadmarsh, etc. I guess we'll never know.

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08-23-2005, 11:04 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Gooch - you drive me insane! You're another one of those posters that disagree with me in such a lucid and thoughtful way that I have difficulty fighting back.

Anyway, my take on this is that it is really hard to judge Lacroix. The main piece of those AV teams were acquired by other GMs, not Lacroix. One could argue that he managed his assets well enough to win two cups - but I have wonder how much further the Avs would have gone if they had kept Sundin (critical error there), Regehr, Deadmarsh, etc. I guess we'll never know.
Everyone forgets Sundin was in a contract dispute at the time and Lefevre, Lemeiux and Wilson were useful to the team afterwards. The Avs won the cup after trading Deadmarsh and Blake is still a productive member of this team while Adam is pretty much out of the game. I'd like to have Regher back, but most GMs have a prospect that's come back to bite them in the ass.

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08-23-2005, 11:28 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Everyone forgets Sundin was in a contract dispute at the time and Lefevre, Lemeiux and Wilson were useful to the team afterwards. The Avs won the cup after trading Deadmarsh and Blake is still a productive member of this team while Adam is pretty much out of the game. I'd like to have Regher back, but most GMs have a prospect that's come back to bite them in the ass.
I never agreed with that Sundin deal and I didn't agree with Lacroix's reasoning at the time. He argued that the Avs needed some grit. Maybe they did, but you don't trade one of your best forwards for grit. Support players like that could be had at a lower price. I also though the Owen Nolan deal showed very poor reasoning.

My sense of the Avs are that they are a dynasty that never happened. Lacroix inherited a strong cast of youngsters, and had the finacial resources to develop all those players and bring in a few key players from other teams. But, with a different move or two, I think the Avs could have been like the 80's Isles, the Gretzky-led Oilers, or the late seventies Habs.

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08-23-2005, 11:54 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I never agreed with that Sundin deal and I didn't agree with Lacroix's reasoning at the time. He argued that the Avs needed some grit. Maybe they did, but you don't trade one of your best forwards for grit. Support players like that could be had at a lower price. I also though the Owen Nolan deal showed very poor reasoning.

My sense of the Avs are that they are a dynasty that never happened. Lacroix inherited a strong cast of youngsters, and had the finacial resources to develop all those players and bring in a few key players from other teams. But, with a different move or two, I think the Avs could have been like the 80's Isles, the Gretzky-led Oilers, or the late seventies Habs.
Of course the sundin trade was in Quebec and the financial pressures were still acute.

I don't know why people fetishise Nolan. Toronto is willing to pay to get rid of him, he's a club house lawyer, injury prone had some dud seasons in San Jose and Ozolinsh was a intergral part of the 96 cup and has better playoff stats than ON despite (nominaly) being a defenseman.

Considering the Isles didn't have any competition the calibre of the Wings and Stars until the Oilers came along and the Oil really had to contend with Calgary, the Avs don't come out looking too bad. Keep in mind we are talking before salaries and free agency got so out of whack.

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08-23-2005, 12:12 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Gooch - you drive me insane! You're another one of those posters that disagree with me in such a lucid and thoughtful way that I have difficulty fighting back.

it's part of my charm


One of the very classy things about Lacroix is you rarely have a shred of rumor before he pulls off a deal. Bobby Clarke passes gas, his office leaks rumor all over the press. Lacroix runs a classy outfit. The scouting has been absolutely out of the park for years, though I think their top scout landed in Phoenix. And they keep and develop those prospects in their system. The two best developmental systems are NJ and Avs, as far I am concerned. Both GMs, coincidentally, are prob best in the league. Classy, well-designed, and well-operated systems that carry over to success on the ice.

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08-23-2005, 12:15 PM
  #73
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Oh, this thread is about a Avs/Isles trade...how about Tanguay for Isbister

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08-23-2005, 12:40 PM
  #74
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Darth,

I know the man, the myth, the Gooch. Best way to describe him is a B-Button goal scorer in NHL 95. Take that as you will.

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08-23-2005, 01:00 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Gooch
it's part of my charm


One of the very classy things about Lacroix is you rarely have a shred of rumor before he pulls off a deal. Bobby Clarke passes gas, his office leaks rumor all over the press. Lacroix runs a classy outfit. The scouting has been absolutely out of the park for years, though I think their top scout landed in Phoenix. And they keep and develop those prospects in their system. The two best developmental systems are NJ and Avs, as far I am concerned. Both GMs, coincidentally, are prob best in the league. Classy, well-designed, and well-operated systems that carry over to success on the ice.
Lacroix has his faults on the PR front, but I'll take those rough edges over the circuses (circi?) like Clarke and Milbury run.

His scouting talent development is underated of late, mainly for the lack of first round picks/success. Last year we were bringing up the rear in the prospect rankings and yet Liles managed to finish fourth in the Calder voting. I think once the logjam from a year of prospect holding paterns clears out this draft and further development will get the team some props.

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