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Prospect Thread XXVII

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Old
06-12-2014, 08:55 PM
  #801
me2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Agreed that the 2013 draft was better.

But these problems should have been obvious from the second Gillis took over, and it shouldn't have taken him 6 drafts to fix them.

And shuffling/ignoring garbage isn't really a solution either - all it means is that we never draft anyone out of the WHL and QMJHL instead of drafting bad players out of there. Very disappointing on all fronts.

(And for the record, I'm a pretty big Gillis supporter who doesn't believe he should have been fired)
I think he did try to reform it from within, it just failed because he was reforming the unreformable. It took to long to accept the unreformable needed replacement.

I was always critical of Nonis for the same thing except Nonis had years as assistant GM to know it sucked.

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06-12-2014, 10:00 PM
  #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Agreed that the 2013 draft was better.

But these problems should have been obvious from the second Gillis took over, and it shouldn't have taken him 6 drafts to fix them.

And shuffling/ignoring garbage isn't really a solution either - all it means is that we never draft anyone out of the WHL and QMJHL instead of drafting bad players out of there. Very disappointing on all fronts.

(And for the record, I'm a pretty big Gillis supporter who doesn't believe he should have been fired)
Yet Benning has chosen to give his scouting staff time to evaluate them just the same as Gillis did. Not saying it'll necessarily take 5 drafts for him to make changes as well, but why do so at all then?

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06-12-2014, 10:31 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Yet Benning has chosen to give his scouting staff time to evaluate them just the same as Gillis did. Not saying it'll necessarily take 5 drafts for him to make changes as well, but why do so at all then?
It's amazing how many opportunities this scouting staff has gotten...Delorme and co. should have been ousted years ago.

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Old
06-12-2014, 11:06 PM
  #804
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We can either assume everyone who has ever been a GM of this team is an idiot or maybe, just maybe there's more to it than we, with our limited access, know?

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Old
06-12-2014, 11:37 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
We can either assume everyone who has ever been a GM of this team is an idiot or maybe, just maybe there's more to it than we, with our limited access, know?
Delorme has compromising photos of the Aquilini brothers?


I'm not sure what saves this group of scouts after so many poor draft showings? It's a results based business and the results have been pretty poor.

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06-12-2014, 11:58 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
It's amazing how many opportunities this scouting staff has gotten...Delorme and co. should have been ousted years ago.
On the surface it would seem that way for long-time Canucks fans, and I can understand why. But I think for outsiders coming into the organization like Gillis and Benning they might not see it like that, hence their respective decisions to evaluate them and do their due diligence. As a fan I'm also not sure what would prevent the heads we've wanted to roll from rolling, which is why I posed the question to MS.

In a slightly different vein, the results in the past from the W and Q haven't been pretty but I imagine had Gillis stayed on he would have continued to overhaul the scouting. The OHL was the one big part he seems to have made improvements to and given the 5-year rule of thumb usually used to evaluate a draft, firing him after his 6th year just to hand it over to a newcomer seems like one big step backward in that area nonetheless.

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Old
06-13-2014, 12:19 AM
  #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
We can either assume everyone who has ever been a GM of this team is an idiot or maybe, just maybe there's more to it than we, with our limited access, know?
the results speak for themselves. this is what happens when many organizations have suspect hiring policies and choose hiring for reasons other than merit, like Alumni status, or whoevers dad is the goalie coach.

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Old
06-13-2014, 12:43 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Yet Benning has chosen to give his scouting staff time to evaluate them just the same as Gillis did. Not saying it'll necessarily take 5 drafts for him to make changes as well, but why do so at all then?
Despite the public defence, I don't think this is true. Based on Jason's Botchford's musings, JB and TL are very aware that the excuse Delorme gave them is the same one that they gave Gillis - "We didn't get the right guidance from the last guy!"

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Old
06-13-2014, 01:17 AM
  #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
We can either assume everyone who has ever been a GM of this team is an idiot or maybe, just maybe there's more to it than we, with our limited access, know?
Except we saw the team's 2010 full draft list, and you or I could do a better job in a half hour, drunk.

That list screamed absolute, total incompetence. They literally got *everything* wrong. Every player that was a quality selection in that draft, they had ranked incomprehensibly low, and every player they had ranked higher than the consensus was a bust.

That so many people could be paid so much to put together such a steaming pile of suck is a bit mind-boggling.

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Old
06-13-2014, 01:54 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Except we saw the team's 2010 full draft list, and you or I could do a better job in a half hour, drunk.

That list screamed absolute, total incompetence. They literally got *everything* wrong. Every player that was a quality selection in that draft, they had ranked incomprehensibly low, and every player they had ranked higher than the consensus was a bust.

That so many people could be paid so much to put together such a steaming pile of suck is a bit mind-boggling.

We can only surmise that our scouts were (are) not only incompetent, but arrogant as well.

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Old
06-13-2014, 03:18 AM
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Except we saw the team's 2010 full draft list, and you or I could do a better job in a half hour, drunk.

That list screamed absolute, total incompetence. They literally got *everything* wrong. Every player that was a quality selection in that draft, they had ranked incomprehensibly low, and every player they had ranked higher than the consensus was a bust.

That so many people could be paid so much to put together such a steaming pile of suck is a bit mind-boggling.
just wondering do we actually know they specifically told us that it was a real list or are we just assuming they did from watching that video?

im looking for something like "this is our prospect ranking/priority/w.e list that we r going to use for the draft" and not some random paper from the draft showing the list with no real meaning other than we assume that is a definite?


or something.....idk

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Old
06-13-2014, 03:20 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by ihaveyuidonttouchme View Post
just wondering do we actually know they specifically told us that it was a real list or are we just assuming they did from watching that video?

im looking for something like "this is our prospect ranking/priority/w.e list that we r going to use for the draft" and not some random paper from the draft showing the list with no real meaning other than we assume that is a definite?


or something.....idk
Why on earth would they ever come out and say that? the list was categorically an embarrassment from top to bottom

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Old
06-13-2014, 04:22 AM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihaveyuidonttouchme View Post
just wondering do we actually know they specifically told us that it was a real list or are we just assuming they did from watching that video?

im looking for something like "this is our prospect ranking/priority/w.e list that we r going to use for the draft" and not some random paper from the draft showing the list with no real meaning other than we assume that is a definite?


or something.....idk
The list looked like it was leaked via a camera phone by an insider.

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Old
06-13-2014, 04:45 AM
  #814
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Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
The list looked like it was leaked via a camera phone by an insider.
If I'm thinking of the same list, it was actually released (probably unintentionally) by the Canucks via a pre-draft video.



(List is shown at 1:33)

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Old
06-13-2014, 04:45 AM
  #815
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Yeah, it was that exact video which supposedly drew a lot of backlash from people over the rankings in that list. Kind of surprised there were only 2 entire comments on it... but then again, it is Youtube...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Despite the public defence, I don't think this is true. Based on Jason's Botchford's musings, JB and TL are very aware that the excuse Delorme gave them is the same one that they gave Gillis - "We didn't get the right guidance from the last guy!"
Interesting. Was it actually something he specifically said he was told, or his own speculation?


Last edited by vanuck: 06-13-2014 at 04:50 AM.
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Old
06-13-2014, 11:03 AM
  #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Despite the public defence, I don't think this is true. Based on Jason's Botchford's musings, JB and TL are very aware that the excuse Delorme gave them is the same one that they gave Gillis - "We didn't get the right guidance from the last guy!"
Can you quote or link some of Botchfords musings on the subject? I must have missed them.

I was full blown shocked when Linden said that about Delrome. It was outrageous. Protecting your own is one thing, blaming 20 years of failure on multiple different regimes is just mind bogglingly ignorant.

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Old
06-13-2014, 11:30 AM
  #817
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thefeebster transcribed the list: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=12

1. Hall, Taylor
2. Seguin, Tyler
3. Burmistrov, Alex
4. Gormley, Brandon
5. Campbell, Jack
6. Tarasenko, Vladimir
7. Gudbranson, Erik
8. Skinner, Jeff
9. Fowler, Cam
10. Forbort, Derek
11. Johansen, Ryan
12. Connelly, Brett
13. McIlrath, Dylan
14. Visentin, Mark
15. Granlund, Mikael
16. Kuznetsov, Evgeny
17. Neiderreiter, Nino
18. Tinordi, Jarred
19. Bennett, Beau
20. Sheahan, Riley
21. Bjugstad, Nick
22. Merrill, Jon
23. Melchiori, Julian
24. Corbiel-Therault, Mathieu
25. Hishon, Joey
26. McNally, Patrick
27. Straka, Petr
28. Jarnkrok, Calle
29. Gailev, Stanislav
30. Lindberg, Oscar
31. Polasek, Adam
32. Kabanov, Kirill
33. Ross, Brad
34. Rensfeldt, Ludvig
35. Hayes, Kevin
36. Dominque, Louis
37. Petterson-Wentzel
38. Shwartz, Jaden
39. Knight, Jared
40. McFarland, John
41. Faulk, Justin
42. Zucker, Jason
43. Larsson, Johan
44. Watson, Austin
45. Toffoli, Tyler
46. Etem, Emerson
47. Pitlick, Tyler
48. Pickard, Calvin
49. Johns, Stephen
50. Pysyk, Mark
51. Marincin, Martin
52. Culek, Jakub
53. Howden, Quinton
54. Hamilton, Curtis
55. Friesen, Alex
56. Spooner, Ryan
57. Gudas, Radko
58. Mrazek, Petr
59. Holl, Justin
60. Pulkkinen, Teemu
61. Wannstrom, Sebastion
62. Bocharov, Stanislav
63. Nelson, Brock
64. Alt, Mark
65. Martindale, Ryan
66. McNeill, Reid
67. Aubry, Louis
68. Leach, Joey
69. MacMillan, Mark
70. Petrovic, Alex
71. Simpson, Kent
72. Brittain, Sam
73. Cehlin, Patrick
74. Gustafsson, Johan
75. Iilahti, Jonathan
76. Brodin, Daniel
77. Nemeth, Patrik
78. Coyle, Charlie
79. McCormick, Max
80. Kitsyn, Maxim
81. Donskoi, Joonas
82. Wind, Cameron
83. Smith Pelley, Devante
84. Tommernes, Henrik in 2011
85. Hannay, Sawyer
86. Zahn, Teigan
87. MacKenzie, Matt
88. Weal, Jordan
89. Chudinov, Maxim
90. Houser, Michael
91. Wedgewood, Scott
92. Sundher, Kevin
93. Beukeboom, Brock
94. O'Donnell, Brendan
95. Herbert, Caleb
96. Archibald, Brandon
97. Chaput, Michael
98. Salmivirta, Mikael
99. Hjalmarsson, Simon
100. Marchenko, Alexei
101. Brickley, Connor
102. Clark, Jason
103. Henley, Cedrick
104. Gauthier Leduc, Jerome
105. Gardiner, Max
106. Schemitsch, Geoffrey
107. Smith, Dalton
108. Yogan, Andrew
109. Barbeshev, Sergei
110. Hakanpaa, Jani
111. Aittokallio, Sami
112. Stahl, Tyler
113. Kantor, Michael
114. Marshall, Ben
115. Abeltshauser, Konrad
116. Shipley, Steven
117. Kuhnhackl, Tom
118. Bulmer, Brett
119. Grubauer, Phillip
120. Arnold, Bill

It's...indescribably awful.

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Old
06-13-2014, 11:36 AM
  #818
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I think Delorme must simply be one of those people who has an innate talent for telling his superiors what they want to hear. Sometimes you see people like that in all sorts of management positions, where they can display gross levels of incompetence, but they still somehow manage to hang around, due to a combination of blame-shifting, ego-stroking, and excuse-making.

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Old
06-13-2014, 11:54 AM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
I laughed at the "The canucks never draft a 5/10 kid with extreme skill.

Then some guy linked JS as a come back
Schroeder didn't turn out, but he was the right pick, a solid pick, and he was an undersized skill player. In fact he could still turn out, though it's exceedingly unlikely to happen with the Canucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Despite the public defence, I don't think this is true. Based on Jason's Botchford's musings, JB and TL are very aware that the excuse Delorme gave them is the same one that they gave Gillis - "We didn't get the right guidance from the last guy!"
Apparently he was never told "find me the best NHL players from the draft." Gillis must have said "I want older players with little upside" at one point.

All it should take is a comparison to both consensus draft lists, and to taking the next highest scoring draft eligible player to determine that the scouts aren't doing their jobs well enough. Think about it - there's multiple ways to draft more successfully that don't involve your position even existing. A lack of scouts does better than the job the scouts have done.

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Old
06-13-2014, 11:57 AM
  #820
Jimson Hogarth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
thefeebster transcribed the list: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=12

1. Hall, Taylor
2. Seguin, Tyler
3. Burmistrov, Alex
4. Gormley, Brandon
5. Campbell, Jack
6. Tarasenko, Vladimir
7. Gudbranson, Erik
8. Skinner, Jeff
9. Fowler, Cam
10. Forbort, Derek
11. Johansen, Ryan
12. Connelly, Brett
13. McIlrath, Dylan
14. Visentin, Mark
15. Granlund, Mikael
16. Kuznetsov, Evgeny
17. Neiderreiter, Nino
18. Tinordi, Jarred
19. Bennett, Beau
20. Sheahan, Riley
21. Bjugstad, Nick
22. Merrill, Jon
23. Melchiori, Julian
24. Corbiel-Therault, Mathieu
25. Hishon, Joey
26. McNally, Patrick
27. Straka, Petr
28. Jarnkrok, Calle
29. Gailev, Stanislav
30. Lindberg, Oscar
31. Polasek, Adam
32. Kabanov, Kirill
33. Ross, Brad
34. Rensfeldt, Ludvig
35. Hayes, Kevin
36. Dominque, Louis
37. Petterson-Wentzel
38. Shwartz, Jaden
39. Knight, Jared
40. McFarland, John
41. Faulk, Justin
42. Zucker, Jason
43. Larsson, Johan
44. Watson, Austin
45. Toffoli, Tyler
46. Etem, Emerson
47. Pitlick, Tyler
48. Pickard, Calvin
49. Johns, Stephen
50. Pysyk, Mark
51. Marincin, Martin
52. Culek, Jakub
53. Howden, Quinton
54. Hamilton, Curtis
55. Friesen, Alex
56. Spooner, Ryan
57. Gudas, Radko
58. Mrazek, Petr
59. Holl, Justin
60. Pulkkinen, Teemu
61. Wannstrom, Sebastion
62. Bocharov, Stanislav
63. Nelson, Brock
64. Alt, Mark
65. Martindale, Ryan
66. McNeill, Reid
67. Aubry, Louis
68. Leach, Joey
69. MacMillan, Mark
70. Petrovic, Alex
71. Simpson, Kent
72. Brittain, Sam
73. Cehlin, Patrick
74. Gustafsson, Johan
75. Iilahti, Jonathan
76. Brodin, Daniel
77. Nemeth, Patrik
78. Coyle, Charlie
79. McCormick, Max
80. Kitsyn, Maxim
81. Donskoi, Joonas
82. Wind, Cameron
83. Smith Pelley, Devante
84. Tommernes, Henrik in 2011
85. Hannay, Sawyer
86. Zahn, Teigan
87. MacKenzie, Matt
88. Weal, Jordan
89. Chudinov, Maxim
90. Houser, Michael
91. Wedgewood, Scott
92. Sundher, Kevin
93. Beukeboom, Brock
94. O'Donnell, Brendan
95. Herbert, Caleb
96. Archibald, Brandon
97. Chaput, Michael
98. Salmivirta, Mikael
99. Hjalmarsson, Simon
100. Marchenko, Alexei
101. Brickley, Connor
102. Clark, Jason
103. Henley, Cedrick
104. Gauthier Leduc, Jerome
105. Gardiner, Max
106. Schemitsch, Geoffrey
107. Smith, Dalton
108. Yogan, Andrew
109. Barbeshev, Sergei
110. Hakanpaa, Jani
111. Aittokallio, Sami
112. Stahl, Tyler
113. Kantor, Michael
114. Marshall, Ben
115. Abeltshauser, Konrad
116. Shipley, Steven
117. Kuhnhackl, Tom
118. Bulmer, Brett
119. Grubauer, Phillip
120. Arnold, Bill

It's...indescribably awful.
its a bad list, i mean there must be something to this we are missing, the only other explanation is that gillis and company minds were blown when two guys they had ranked in the top 32 were still available in the 4th and 5th rounds.

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Old
06-13-2014, 12:03 PM
  #821
vanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
All it should take is a comparison to both consensus draft lists, and to taking the next highest scoring draft eligible player to determine that the scouts aren't doing their jobs well enough. Think about it - there's multiple ways to draft more successfully that don't involve your position even existing. A lack of scouts does better than the job the scouts have done.
I agree in theory, but I thought consensus lists don't exist past a certain point (say, the top 90 North American skaters or some such) as after that it becomes too murky. Which is where your scouting comes in. But not following consensus in the mid-rounds more often than not seems to have been an issue as well.

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06-13-2014, 12:12 PM
  #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
thefeebster transcribed the list: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=12


It's...indescribably awful.
The top part isn't too bad. Some misses, but also some decent rankings like Tarasenko and Skinner (went at 7, but was ranked slightly lower by most places).

Obviously completely falls apart after... I don't think there is any way to justify ranking Hannay as a 3rd rounder.

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06-13-2014, 01:54 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by Jimson Hogarth View Post
Can you quote or link some of Botchfords musings on the subject? I must have missed them.

I was full blown shocked when Linden said that about Delrome. It was outrageous. Protecting your own is one thing, blaming 20 years of failure on multiple different regimes is just mind bogglingly ignorant.
https://twitter.com/botchford/status/471006558705692672
https://twitter.com/botchford/status/469707344318709760

In any case, any time an organization president has to publicly come to the defense of an individual scout does not say good things about his position in the org. I don't think they can their longest tenured employee, but I do think Delorme will not have strong influence going forward.

The whole 'we didn't get the right direction thing!' drives me nuts. If you fancy yourself an elite organization, the cogs in your machine drive the bus and get results in their responsible areas

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06-13-2014, 03:14 PM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
https://twitter.com/botchford/status/471006558705692672
https://twitter.com/botchford/status/469707344318709760

In any case, any time an organization president has to publicly come to the defense of an individual scout does not say good things about his position in the org. I don't think they can their longest tenured employee, but I do think Delorme will not have strong influence going forward.

The whole 'we didn't get the right direction thing!' drives me nuts. If you fancy yourself an elite organization, the cogs in your machine drive the bus and get results in their responsible areas
And what direction do you need with respect to being a scout? Moose Jaw is that way. Watch for good players.

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Old
06-13-2014, 03:16 PM
  #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimson Hogarth View Post
its a bad list, i mean there must be something to this we are missing, the only other explanation is that gillis and company minds were blown when two guys they had ranked in the top 32 were still available in the 4th and 5th rounds.
That just speaks volume to our scouting in the last few years. We can't scout past the first round.

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