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Rumor: Spezza to Toronto for Kadri

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:49 PM
  #76
Mike Martin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesa Awesaka View Post
What is kadri's potential?
If we look at what this very website said about him we have a good idea of what GMs think of him. And keep in mind that this analysis is about 2 years old.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/nazem_kadri/

Talent Analysis

Kadri is a highly skilled forward who can make plays at a whim in the offensive zone. He’s fearless on the ice which compensates for his small frame. While there are questions surrounding his game-to-game compete level and some of his decision making, his positives outweigh those negatives.




So most of Kadri's weaknesses aren't based on lack of talent, his weaknesses are in motivation and strategy which means that GMs can dream that the right coach can "reach him" and turn him into an 80 points a year star.

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:54 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by 1927 View Post
Last two seasons:

Jason Spezza
80GP - 25G - 46A - 71 PTS (0.89 pt/game)

Nazem Kadri
126GP - 38G - 56A - 94 PTS (0.75 pt/game)

The difference is 0.14 pts per game between the two players and in a full 82 game season that equates to about 12 more points.

The only problem with Spezza is the fact he has played only one full season and two 80 game seasons his entire NHL career. That extra 0.14 point production will be meaningless if he continues to miss games.

The fact Spezza missed almost the entire shortened season two years ago and missed another seven games after sitting out most of the previous year goes to show his health is inconsistent.

If Leafs are smart they don't trade for Spezza and his $7 million contract. In fact, the Maple Leafs cannot afford Spezza with the other bloated contracts on the roster like Clarkson, Phaneuf and Lupul.

Having both Lupul and Spezza on the same team is a recipe for disaster. Spezza will want more money in his next retirement contract and will not sign for a discount for his new team, so it doesn't make sense to trade for him on a team that needs more work especially on defense.
How about you show Spezza's stats since the Olympic break. It took him a very long time to start playing like his old self after missing an entire year. He's going to score 75-85 points next year and he's not getting traded to a rival without Kadri+Gardiner+1st/2nd coming back.

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:55 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
You seem to be awfully condescending for an internet messageboard poster who is not employed by any hockey organization.

Fact is Spezza has 37% more points per game than Kadri. Teams value points, and I'm willing to bet you that if Spezza is traded at the deadline because the Sens are out of the playoff picture, he will return a very similar player to Kadri as a centerpiece with other smaller pieces on the side.

A team like St. Louis will pay big for a guy of Spezza's caliber - if Toronto doesn't see Spezza as a fit for their team, that's fine, but that doesn't mean Kadri has more value than Spezza.
Again, you're ignoring other facts like a player who's 30 and only has one more year left on his contract vs a 23 year old with several years under team control. You cannot ignore the significance of this in a cap era. Sure, Spezza could sign an extension but at this point, he's under contract for one more year so that hypothetical goes out the window. Spezza is great player on the offensive end and I'd love to have him but it makes zero sense for a team like Toronto to draft Kadri at the top of the first round,develop him and then deal him for a rental. I don't think you'll get a player with Kadri's pedigree for Spezza.

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Old
04-20-2014, 12:58 PM
  #79
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The only way I see a deal working with this premise, is if it's a lot bigger. A team can't succeed paying everyone what tthey would get as a UFA, and Spezza makes that right now, and will obviously in future years too.

If Toronto trades Kadri, they need to get somebody back who is underpaid, and if they trade for Spezza, will have to clear salary elsewhere.

Problem is, I don't see an underpaid winger who the Sens can include while the Leafs add Lupul.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The only way I see a deal working with this premise, is if it's a lot bigger. A team can't succeed paying everyone what tthey would get as a UFA, and Spezza makes that right now, and will obviously in future years too.

If Toronto trades Kadri, they need to get somebody back who is underpaid, and if they trade for Spezza, will have to clear salary elsewhere.

Problem is, I don't see an underpaid winger who the Sens can include while the Leafs add Lupul.
The Leafs don't need to acquire another top winger, Leivo is NHL ready and is arguably the teams best prospect. What the Leafs need is a top 4 D, badly I might add.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:02 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hennig View Post
Kadri has more value than a ufa to be Spezza, just an all around bad trade for Toronto.
This +1.

Toronto absolutely says no to this.

He's a UFA next year. If they want him and he wants to come, they could have him for free.

Respectfully, no thanks.

BB

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:04 PM
  #82
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I like how Leafs fans are acting like they're cool with their centre situation


I foresee them winning much games with this Kadri fellow

Kadri - Bozak ftw

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:06 PM
  #83
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Terrible trade if Kadri is involved. Spezza is already 30 and would only provide a short tem solution. I rather try and sign Stastny.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I like how Leafs fans are acting like they're cool with their centre situation
one season of spezza isn't going to fix our center issue

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Again, you're ignoring other facts like a player who's 30 and only has one more year left on his contract vs a 23 year old with several years under team control. You cannot ignore the significance of this in a cap era. Sure, Spezza could sign an extension but at this point, he's under contract for one more year so that hypothetical goes out the window. Spezza is great player on the offensive end and I'd love to have him but it makes zero sense for a team like Toronto to draft Kadri at the top of the first round,develop him and then deal him for a rental. I don't think you'll get a player with Kadri's pedigree for Spezza.
I never said the deal made sense for Toronto, I said that's what Spezza's value is.

Thomas Vanek got Matt Moulson, 2014 1st-round pick, 2015 2nd-round pick
Matt Moulson was in turn traded for 2014 2nd-round pick, 2016 2nd-round pick

Essentially Vanek's value was a 1st, and 3 2nd round picks.

That's the value I'd expect to get for Spezza. Approximately the value of two 1st round picks.

Now, I'm not a Sens fan who thinks we should be trading Spezza, but that's what I have objectively determined what I think his value is. Truthfully, I see no problem going with Spezza, Turris, Zibanejad, Smith down the middle for the next year and then trying to re-sign Spezza for a long-term deal.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by tacoburrito View Post
one season of spezza isn't going to fix our center issue
and you think he would leave because?

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:09 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Kadri + Gardiner for Spezza
Not a chance

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:10 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I like how Leafs fans are acting like they're cool with their centre situation
I like how Kadri is a center. And he should be dealt for a similar center who's only signed for one more year. The Leafs gave up a lot for this center named Dave Bolland, a guy signed for only one season, that worked out great didn't it?

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:10 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensNation613 View Post
How about you show Spezza's stats since the Olympic break. It took him a very long time to start playing like his old self after missing an entire year. He's going to score 75-85 points next year and he's not getting traded to a rival without Kadri+Gardiner+1st/2nd coming back.
Who cares what Spezza did since the Olympic break. Look at what happened to the Leafs since the Olympic break, they went the opposite direction. Anything could happen next year and showing one part since the Olympic break is meaningless.

People are looking at the total body of Spezza's work thus far as he entered his prime years. Here are Spezza's prime year’s ages

26 years old
2009-10: 60GP 23G 34A 57 PTS

27 years old
2010-11: 62GP 21G 36A 57 PTS

28 years old
2011-12: 80GP 34G 50A 84 PTS

29 years old
2012-13: 5GP 2G 3A 5 PTS

30 years old
2013-14: 75GP 23G 43A 66 PTS

So in 5 prime years Spezza played almost two full seasons. It doesn't matter what Spezza did since the Olympic break as next season he could be injured again as he has proven multiple times.

The Leafs do not need another Joffrey Lupul type player on the team, we already have him. The fact Spezza has been injured often in his prime years is alarming to any team and now he will be 31, so let's see how his body now holds up as he gets even older.

Let another team trade or sign him that is more desperate the Leafs should not trade for or sign Spezza period.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:11 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kyle93 View Post
Spezza is turning 31 this summer, has 1 more year left on his contract. Leafs would never give up Kadri and Gardiner for him.
Exactly, That would be like Detroit giving up both Nyquist and Dekeyser for 1 year of Spezza that would be crazy for some one who could walk in a year.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:12 PM
  #91
Man Bear Pig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I never said the deal made sense for Toronto, I said that's what Spezza's value is.

Thomas Vanek got Matt Moulson, 2014 1st-round pick, 2015 2nd-round pick
Matt Moulson was in turn traded for 2014 2nd-round pick, 2016 2nd-round pick

Essentially Vanek's value was a 1st, and 3 2nd round picks.

That's the value I'd expect to get for Spezza. Approximately the value of two 1st round picks.

Now, I'm not a Sens fan who thinks we should be trading Spezza, but that's what I have objectively determined what I think his value is.
Garth Snow trades need to have a asterisk beside them

If you're anticipating a top-end pick plus multiple other picks, you'll be disappointed.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:15 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Garth Snow trades need to have a asterisk beside them

If you're anticipating a top-end pick plus multiple other picks, you'll be disappointed.
You seem very sure of this. I hope we never find out anyway, Spezza's too good a player to trade away.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:18 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
The Leafs don't need to acquire another top winger, Leivo is NHL ready and is arguably the teams best prospect. What the Leafs need is a top 4 D, badly I might add.
If the Leafs trade Lupul (which they'd have to do in order to deal for Spezza), they'll néed a cheap winger who can play in the top 6.

I'm not sure why Leivo's name is being discussed, he's pretty garbage as far as prospects go (maybe not Leaf prospects because our system is so weak), with MAYBE 3rd line upside if things go well for him.

The whole idea behind getting spezza is to have a reliable 2nd line. He'll need a running mate.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:36 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by SensNation613 View Post
How about you show Spezza's stats since the Olympic break.
Because that's what we call cherry picking.

Should the Sens base their evaluation of Kadri purely on, say, the first fifteen or so games of this season, when he was scoring at a PPG pace?

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04-20-2014, 01:39 PM
  #95
Man Bear Pig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
You seem very sure of this. I hope we never find out anyway, Spezza's too good a player to trade away.
I'd say you seem very sure of the return as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If the Leafs trade Lupul (which they'd have to do in order to deal for Spezza), they'll néed a cheap winger who can play in the top 6.

I'm not sure why Leivo's name is being discussed, he's pretty garbage as far as prospects go (maybe not Leaf prospects because our system is so weak), with MAYBE 3rd line upside if things go well for him.

The whole idea behind getting spezza is to have a reliable 2nd line. He'll need a running mate.
garbage prospect? a 20 year old who put up 23 goals in 59 games in the AHL is not a "garbage prospect". 3rd line upside is the worst case scenario for Leivo.

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Old
04-20-2014, 01:44 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Marco Esquandolas View Post
Because that's what we call cherry picking.

Should the Sens base their evaluation of Kadri purely on, say, the first fifteen or so games of this season, when he was scoring at a PPG pace?
I'm not the one cherry picking. You're comparing Kadri and Spezza's season when Spezza missed the entire year before and only started playing well after the Olympic break. But whatever, no Sens fan would move Spezza for Kadri so there's no point.

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04-20-2014, 01:55 PM
  #97
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There's no way the Leafs trade Kadri for Spezza. If he's traded it will be for another player around the same age.

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04-20-2014, 01:56 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SensNation613 View Post
I'm not the one cherry picking. You're comparing Kadri and Spezza's season when Spezza missed the entire year before and only started playing well after the Olympic break. But whatever, no Sens fan would move Spezza for Kadri so there's no point.
Yip, no way it would be just Kadri. I believe you've seen the best out of Kadri offensively. He'll be a 50 point player, with an occasional blip when he'll reach 60. Which is nothing to sneeze at, but not elite (i.e. 70+ a season). He will still improve defensively though.

Still he is no where, or will ever be (in my belief) on Spezza's offensive level. Thus, it must be Kadri +. Now add that trade is happening between division rivals and you got something like Kadri + Gardiner. Maybe even an exchange of picks slightly in favour of the Sens (Something like a 4th for a 2nd, just spitballin')

EDIT: forgot to add the leafs get a signed Spezza on a reasonable deal for a #1C.

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04-20-2014, 01:57 PM
  #99
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Spezza is exactly the direction I dont want this team to go in. Spezza, Kessel, Lupul, Bozak, JVR, etc as our top forwards? Thats a lot of skill, but as a group terrible defensively and not very tough either.

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04-20-2014, 02:07 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
I'd say you seem very sure of the return as well.


garbage prospect? a 20 year old who put up 23 goals in 59 games in the AHL is not a "garbage prospect". 3rd line upside is the worst case scenario for Leivo.
just because he's the leafs best or 2nd best young forward prospect, doesn't mean he has top 6 upside in the NHL.

As usual, the gross over-rating of prospects on hfboards never ceases to amaze me.

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