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Old
08-25-2005, 09:53 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Pithy please. Patience like the panthers. I prefer the patience of the last 6 years of leafdom. Hale is a better prospect than Colaiacovo.
Reading comprehension skills please. Key words. New NHL. Salary cap. Allison's bonuses budgeted this year. Extrewmly smart business move. Only 3 million cap room. Only one defencemen spot avaialble and defencemen not needed. Colaiacovo fast and mobile. Hale not fast, weak kidneys and injury prone.

Hockey's Future blurb about David Hale.

Quote:
His signed his first pro contract during the summer of 2003 with the idea of skipping the AHL altogether and going right to the NHL. Hale, along with fellow rookie Paul Martin both made the opening season roster. The two often were rotated in and out of the line-up, but as the season wore on, Hale saw less action in favor of the more mobile and offensively gifted Martin. An injury to Scott Stevens allowed Hale to see more time down the stretch, but he only suited up for only one playoff game. For the season, he managed to get into 65 games, registering four assists and 72 PIMís along with a solid +12 rating.

2004-05 was expected to be a coming out party of sorts for Hale, but the NHL lockout killed Haleís NHL aspirations for the season before they even had a chance to begin. However, he was eligible to play for the Devils top AHL affiliate in Albany. While Hale would have rather been playing in New Jersey, playing for the River Rats was seen as something that would be beneficial to him down the road as he would see more ice time and play in more key situations for the more inexperienced River Rats squad. He got off to a solid start, but midway through the season, his kidneys acted up again and he missed a significant amount of time. To the relief of the Devils, Hale was eventually able to return to the line-up near the end of the season. For the year, he managed two goals and three assists and 39 PIMís in 30 games. When the NHL starts back up, Hale should have no difficulty cracking the Devils roster. With Scott Stevens future up in the air, Haleís ice time and responsibilities could increase significantly. The only thing that stands in Haleís way from becoming a top 4 defenseman is his chronic kidney problem.
Fast and mobile always beast not so fast, not so mobile and weak kidneys.

Pithy according to websters "2 : having substance and point". Fantastic, the article had both.

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08-25-2005, 11:13 AM
  #27
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To quote myself

NJ 5 mil over the cap. Time for GM Jr. to act and sign D-men David Hale and Paul Martin to offer sheets at <2 mill. All it will cost leafs is 2nd round draft pick for players who are better prospects than Colaiacovo.

Colaiacovo didn't miss significant playing time last year? Martin or Hale Jersey loves them both.

Why do you budget Allison for the full 3 mil. Hasn't even played a game.


Last edited by Big Mama*: 08-25-2005 at 11:39 AM.
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08-25-2005, 11:51 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
To quote myself

NJ 5 mil over the cap. Time for GM Jr. to act and sign D-men David Hale and Paul Martin to offer sheets at <2 mill. All it will cost leafs is 2nd round draft pick for players who are better prospects than Colaiacovo.
This was dealt with thourouly in post #24. You might want to read it again. Restarting the debate will not makle your quote more valid.

Quote:
Colaiacovo didn't miss significant playing time last year?
He missed time due to getting hit in the head with the puck going down to block a shot. Actually the puck hit him in the ear. From hockey's future.

Quote:
...The most recent mishap to strike Colaiacovo occurred on December 7th in a game against Grand Rapids when he was struck in the ear by a shot, breaking a bone in his head and sidelining him for the past five weeks....

...HF: Tell me about the injury and how it happened?
CC: I blocked a shot in the ear and suffered a broken mastoid bone in the back of my head, some temporary ear damage, I was deaf for two weeks and itís been a slow healing process but hopefully it wonít keep me out too much longer.....
Injuries like that are freak accidents and they heal.

Requote on Hale.

Quote:
his kidneys acted up again and he missed a significant amount of time.
Key phrase "acted up AGAIN". His kidneys will always be his kidneys and they are weak. Period.

Martin is the better prospect. (of Martin and Hale)

Quote:
Martin should be ready to continue his rapid ascension with the Devils and blossom into an offensively gifted top 4 defender. He could turn out to be the best pick of this draft class
But this still does not negate the fact that the Maple Leafs only have ONE defenceman spot open. And two quality players who will be competing for it. (Colaiacovo and Pilar--Pilar hasn't signed yet but will.). Did you read what was written about Colaiacovo or just scan it?

If the Maple Leafs go out and sign a UFA or a RFA it will be a winger. That is the only position the Leafs might lack some depth.

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08-25-2005, 11:54 AM
  #29
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Waterboy: how do you keep up with the more trivial details of hockey personnel in beach volleyball land? When I lived in Florida there was no way I could keep on top of things whereas in Toronto it is difficult to avoid Leafocity.

What are your sources? How long have you been exiled to CA? Will you be returning to civilization some day?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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08-25-2005, 12:01 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Martin or Hale Jersey loves them both.
I love my girlfriend but she would make a lousy defenseman. (whoops defense woman) Love of a player is irrelevant. Facts are relevant. Facts on both Hale, Martin and Colaiacovo have been posted. Refute facts with facts.

Quote:
Why do you budget Allison for the full 3 mil. Hasn't even played a game.
One budgets because one is intelligent. One budgets because the alternative of being wrong and caught "with your pants down" would be embarrassing". Imagine the Leafs not budgeting for Allison's bonuses. Then he earns them. Then the cap decreases the following year. Then the leafs can't sign him back due to cap space. The fans and media will have a field day with that one.

Players are signed to fit NEEDS. The defense is not currently a need.

Knowledge and attention to the other two major leagues with salary caps, the NBA and the NFL along with some business sense will demonstrate that lack of proper budgeting will handicap a team from improving for many years to come.

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08-25-2005, 12:10 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
Waterboy: how do you keep up with the more trivial details of hockey personnel in beach volleyball land? When I lived in Florida there was no way I could keep on top of things whereas in Toronto it is difficult to avoid Leafocity.

What are your sources? How long have you been exiled to CA? Will you be returning to civilization some day?

Inquiring minds want to know.
LOL. Balancing the beach and hockey is a requirement for any Canadian moving to California. Otherwise they send you back. And I have had it with shoveling 6 feet of snow off of my driveway. I prefer dining outside on a beautiful January evening.

PS Florida weather sucks in the summer. Hot humid and disgusting.

Which sources would you like? I believe I have provided links to all relevant information. I love reading the news. The more information the better.

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08-25-2005, 01:55 PM
  #32
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Some NJ fans claim Hale is the better prospect others such as I believe Martin is the better prospect. Point is we will improve the team by pursuing these players and with NJ over the cap it makes strategic sense to put pressure on NJ.

I'll take Jersey Lou's opinion on prospects anytime. If he loves them I'll take them. That is a fact. You stick with HF.


My point about Colaiacovo is that he is injury prone. This happens to be a trait of leaf first round draft picks al the way back to Trevor Johanson, Gary Nylund (boy he could have been great) Al Iafrate, Wendel Clark Nik Antropov and I have probably missed a couple.

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08-25-2005, 02:31 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Some NJ fans claim Hale is the better prospect others such as I believe Martin is the better prospect.
Irrelevant. Only one defense spot is open on Leafs team. Pick the one you think is better and stick with him. Signing two guys for one spot that two existing players are competing for is not smart regardless of their talent. Pick ONE player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Point is we will improve the team by pursuing these players and with NJ over the cap it makes strategic sense to put pressure on NJ.
Opinion only here. No facts. Words like "improve" need to be backed up with fact or else it is just nonsensical babbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
I'll take Jersey Lou's opinion on prospects anytime. If he loves them I'll take them. That is a fact. You stick with HF.
Ok this statement I will buy. You respect Jersey Lou's evaluation more than HF. I can live with that. I disagree but understand where you are comming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
My point about Colaiacovo is that he is injury prone. This happens to be a trait of leaf first round draft picks al the way back to Trevor Johanson, Gary Nylund (boy he could have been great) Al Iafrate, Wendel Clark Nik Antropov and I have probably missed a couple.
OK Colaiacovo needs to be compared to a particular player before making the "injury prone" comments. If being compared to Hale then you are comparing injuries which heal to kidneys that will always be messed up. (wondering if you ever read the kidney part. I am sure other posters will read it.)

If Colaiacovo is being compared to Martin then you are correct. However the money you want to spend on Martin is LIMITED. Do you deny that the Leafs need more help on offense than defense? In the old NHL the Leafs could sign anyone. In this new CBA the money needs to be spent filling the Maple Leafs biggest need. OFFENSE. Now if New Jersey want's to sign and then trade Martin that is a whole different story.

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08-25-2005, 03:19 PM
  #34
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Get Hale or Martin bid for both. Kabby and McCabe will be UFA next year. Depth at D means trade for offence. D-man are always in demand.

Most player opinion is "surprise" opinion. A fact is goals and assists. So Hossa is better than Iginla because he had more points in 03-04? Fact: NJ is over the cap. You make a silly statement.

Why does Coclaiacovo need to be compared to anyone to say that he is injury prone so far in his career? This is nonsensical. Comparison is irrelevant to the content of this statement.

Kidney's that are recurring are more serious than injury prone. What health problem does Martin have?l

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08-25-2005, 04:07 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Get Hale or Martin bid for both. Kabby and McCabe will be UFA next year. Depth at D means trade for offence. D-man are always in demand.
First of all its a pleasure to debate with you. None of this is personal and I am sure you feel the same.

If you want to acquire Martin with the idea of trading one of the excess defense men for a winger then that is a valid and logical course of action. However that is not what your original comment was that sparked this debate between you and I. Your comments about acquiring the defense men were made in isolation from any trade. A trade would be necessary and vital for this to be a good move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Most player opinion is "surprise" opinion. A fact is goals and assists. So Hossa is better than Iginla because he had more points in 03-04? Fact: NJ is over the cap. You make a silly statement.
The opinion comment was in reference to your statement that "Hale and Martin" would improve the team. Statements like that should always be backed up with something. Yours was not. And just saying they are good isn't enough. Why are they good? etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Why does Coclaiacovo need to be compared to anyone to say that he is injury prone so far in his career? This is nonsensical. Comparison is irrelevant to the content of this statement.
Excellent question. Wrong conclusion. If you are justifying acquiring a player to replace Cocaiacovo on the basis that COCAIACOVO is injury prone while the player you want to get has a MORE SERIOUS problem (such as Hale with his Kidneys) then comparison is everything.

Conclusion. If you make an offer for Martin and then trade a defenceman for a winger you might have a possibility. But then which defenceman do you trade? If you trade McCabe, Kaberle, Berg, Klee, or Khavanov then Cocaiacovo ends up playing for the Leafs in the 6 spot anyway, something you seem not to want. And with your evaluation of Cocaiacovo as "injury prone" how are you going to trade him for a winger.

I would like to hear a detailed plan of how you would like to make this work. Just signing Martin won't work.

Kidney's that are recurring are more serious than injury prone. What health problem does Martin have?

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08-25-2005, 04:45 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
To quote myself

NJ 5 mil over the cap. Time for GM Jr. to act and sign D-men David Hale and Paul Martin to offer sheets at <2 mill. All it will cost leafs is 2nd round draft pick for players who are better prospects than Colaiacovo.

Colaiacovo didn't miss significant playing time last year? Martin or Hale Jersey loves them both.

Why do you budget Allison for the full 3 mil. Hasn't even played a game.
Hey I found a Rumour that is right down your alley ..


Quote:

MALONE DONE AS A PENGUIN?

Karen Price reports the Penguins and forward Ryan Malone remain far apart in contract negotiations. That's prompted Malone's agent to suggest another club could send an offer sheet to his client. It's believed Malone is seeking to double his money from the $522 k he earned in 2003-04, perhaps comparable to the raise NY Islanders rookie Trent Hunter received, doubling his money to $1 million for this coming season.


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08-25-2005, 04:56 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess
Hey I found a Rumour that is right down your alley ...
Good one mess. But since Ryan Malone is a forward me thinks Mother Tucker won't like it. He seems interested only in acquiring players for positions that are already filled and not needed, such as goalies and defensemen. But we shall see how he replies.


Last edited by Waterboy73806498: 08-25-2005 at 04:57 PM. Reason: spelling
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08-25-2005, 05:02 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy73806498
Good one mess. But since Ryan Malone is a forward me thinks Mother Tucker won't like it. He seems interested only in acquiring players for positions that are already filled and not needed, such as goalies and defensemen. But we shall see how he replies.
Problem:
Ryan Malone Forward
Born Dec 1 1979 -- Pittsburgh, PA
Height 6.04 -- Weight 215

See how old he is, and he's only played 1 year in the NHL.

Frankie says he's a washout. (Using the generic Frankie)

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08-25-2005, 05:12 PM
  #39
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Ryan Malone is a good player I don't know what we'd give up for him though.

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08-25-2005, 05:19 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Problem:
Ryan Malone Forward
Born Dec 1 1979 -- Pittsburgh, PA
Height 6.04 -- Weight 215

See how old he is, and he's only played 1 year in the NHL.

Frankie says he's a washout. (Using the generic Frankie)
Could there be a deal here to be made between Pitts and Tor ..

They have traded before Jackman/Berehowsky

They are have trouble with Malone and are also rumoured to not be very interested in Alexei Morozov .. The pair was 2nd and 3rd in Pens scoring last NHL season :
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000502004.html

Perhaps we could sign and trade them Domi (ala Hossa move) as part of a package for the Pitts pair of forwards .. We know Mario likes him and offered him a contract larger then the TO deal .. Does anyone know if Tie has a NO TRADE ClAUSE ??

Leafs Lunch crew today was talking about Perrott be close to resigning and that Leafs could/would not carry 3 tough guys on the same team .

What else would it take and would it be a good move ??

PS : Generic Frankies don't know nuttin'


Last edited by Mess: 08-25-2005 at 05:26 PM.
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08-25-2005, 09:04 PM
  #41
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Waterboy: Pithy is not in your vocabulary and now it has left mine. Good Debate but I'll leave you with the last word.(Unless I change my mind, hurricane to deal with)

I thought given NJ cap issues and plethora of D men aquiring Martin &/or Hale is a wise course of action because in my "opinion" they are as good or better prospects than Cola. We need to aquire young RFA because we have a dearth of talent in that age group.

Always wise to have assets. You can deal them away ala Clarke. I mentioned in another post one can make trades with excess assets. Usually this is implied, but I understand if you didn't think this was the case.

I believe Hale & Martin would improve the Leafs by
1) Jersey Lou's assessment that they are good prospects

2) A hedge against losing Kabby, McCabe, Klee and I think Berg as UFA's next year.

3) a weak spot in the new CBA, RFA's signed to an offer sheet between $1-2 mil only cost a 2nd. Leafs can lose a Mogilny as UFA and use the savings to sign RFA's between $1-$2. Just coincidence that Jersey Lou is on both sides of this proposed transaction. But an interesting one.

4) Strategic spending: If Jersey Lou matches he has less money to spend on UFA's next seasondue to the cap. Unfortunately Leafs have to rely on UFA's. The cap is a zero sum game. Alot of guys on these boards don't like the idea & I understand why but disagree.

I wasn't trying to acquire Hale/Martin because Cola is injury prone. I just wanted to point out that acquirung any player has injury risks. You pointed out quite clearly and correctly that Hale is a worse risk than Cola. Hence, I give the nod to Martin and wish I had said him rather than Hale, but a NJ fan convinced me the other way. I have changed my mind again, back to martin.

I figured Martin, Pilar and Colaiacovo would fight it out for six. I lean to Martin to open the season. Pilar and Cola are on two ways therefore they can be brought up from the minors without the callup waiver(new rule: player has to go through waivers on callup). I envision them as AHL depth ( most the guys hate this one too) who are called up when there are injuries. If each guy plays 70 games. Then D man 7 & 8 will play about 40 games each. The injury total is low in my opinion.


Last edited by Big Mama*: 08-26-2005 at 01:46 PM.
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08-26-2005, 12:02 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
We need to aquire young RFA because we have a dearth of talent in that age group.
I point you back to the Leafs' long list of prospects, and majorly disagree with your claims that the Leafs lack talent, especially on defense, in that age group.

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08-26-2005, 10:10 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightsol
I point you back to the Leafs' long list of prospects, and majorly disagree with your claims that the Leafs lack talent, especially on defense, in that age group.
Correct me if I'm wrong; I thought we had no D-man who will finish the season in the 21-27 year old age group on the team. Carlo has yet to make the team.

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08-26-2005, 12:24 PM
  #44
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As I've said before Jersey Lou was part of the negotiations of this new CBA, he knows some thing that the other GM's hasn't figured out yet, or he knows the penalty for being over the Cap isn't as severe as other's percieve it to be. Or he's betting that other teams won't spend the money when he puts some of these guys on waivers to get under the cap if they clear they only count 75,000 against the cap, I don't profess to know what he has up his sleeve but I just can't see him being so out to lunch as he appears to be on this.

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08-26-2005, 01:48 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy
As I've said before Jersey Lou was part of the negotiations of this new CBA, he knows some thing that the other GM's hasn't figured out yet, or he knows the penalty for being over the Cap isn't as severe as other's percieve it to be. Or he's betting that other teams won't spend the money when he puts some of these guys on waivers to get under the cap if they clear they only count 75,000 against the cap, I don't profess to know what he has up his sleeve but I just can't see him being so out to lunch as he appears to be on this.
Hopefully GM Jr is up to the task of tangling with Jersey Lou. I'd just like GM Jr. to throw him an anchor.

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08-26-2005, 04:33 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Correct me if I'm wrong; I thought we had no D-man who will finish the season in the 21-27 year old age group on the team. Carlo has yet to make the team.
And if none of those defencemen make the Leafs this year, I'm going to sit and wait for the announcement that Pat Quinn has been fired.

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08-26-2005, 09:54 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightsol
And if none of those defencemen make the Leafs this year, I'm going to sit and wait for the announcement that Pat Quinn has been fired.
Interesting, you think the GM is calling the shots on who makes the team?

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08-26-2005, 10:15 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mother Tucker
Interesting, you think the GM is calling the shots on who makes the team?
I am going to come to the defense of Lightsol on this one. You would like us to sign a young free agent defense man because we do not have anyone who will be in the 21-27 age group at the end of next year. (Let's forget about your argument that Martin is better than Colaiacovo since we already had that discussion and it is not relevant to Lightsol's remarks)

Lightsol is saying (and correct me if I am wrong--Lightsol) that he believes that Colaiacovo will and should make the team. And he is blaming Pat Quinn if he doesn't. And assuming Colaiacovo has an impressive camp (which is an assumption that we will just accept for the time being) and he DOESN'T make the team then Lightsol is correct that it would be Quinn's fault for not selecting him. Quinn has a reputation for preferring veteran players and one would hope that in this new day and age of the NHL that he would give the youngsters a chance.

Ferguson has no input into who makes the roster. Well he has input on the players that have one way contracts. And he can trade players but players on two way contracts are Quinn's decision as to where they play. And if Ferguson were to interfere in this manner then he would become a meddling GM and the Leafs would have more problems than who is going to be on the roster.

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08-26-2005, 10:24 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy73806498
I am going to come to the defense of Lightsol on this one. You would like us to sign a young free agent defense man because we do not have anyone who will be in the 21-27 age group at the end of next year. (Let's forget about your argument that Martin is better than Colaiacovo since we already had that discussion and it is not relevant to Lightsol's remarks)

Lightsol is saying (and correct me if I am wrong--Lightsol) that he believes that Colaiacovo will and should make the team. And he is blaming Pat Quinn if he doesn't. And assuming Colaiacovo has an impressive camp (which is an assumption that we will just accept for the time being) and he DOESN'T make the team then Lightsol is correct that it would be Quinn's fault for not selecting him. Quinn has a reputation for preferring veteran players and one would hope that in this new day and age of the NHL that he would give the youngsters a chance.

Ferguson has no input into who makes the roster. Well he has input on the players that have one way contracts. And he can trade players but players on two way contracts are Quinn's decision as to where they play. And if Ferguson were to interfere in this manner then he would become a meddling GM and the Leafs would have more problems than who is going to be on the roster.
I agree with your arguement.

Quinn is quite lenient at developing kids. If he plays well he will be on the team. Ricky likes him. If he doesn't make the team it is because he hasn't beat out Pilar. Quinn shouldn't be blamed if he doesn't make the team. It is Cola's fault.

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