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Maybe staher is doing something smart here in NY?

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Old
08-24-2005, 11:23 AM
  #1
NYC Aim 4588
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Maybe staher is doing something smart here in NY?

Dont take me worng by the title of the thread, I still dont like Sather as NY's GM, but we do as fans have to deal with it.

I felt the need to make this thread just for the fact with the Rucchin trade I have been seeing alot of disagreement some happy, some not.

Now I have a couple feelings about this whole situation and the RE-BUILD that NYR is and should or maybe or defintley are going through right now.

Let me bring out some points.

Sather signs : Straka( 1 year deal ), Rosie ( 1 year deal ), Nylander ( 2 remaining years, one at seasons end ) Kaspar ( 2 years left one at seasons end ) Rucchin ( 1 year left ) and Jagr ( 2 years left one at seasons end and very cheap for a player his caliber )

All of those players have basically nothing left on there contract at the end of the season, I mean for the guys with 1 year left, to move them for picks and or prospects is likely what will happen.

As for the 2 year deals players like Kaspar ,Jagr and Nylander can all be moved also at the deadline ( might be a little tougher since they do have a year left on the contracts and are not that cheap, but these guys in much of a sense are worth what they got Jagr <~~~ very cheap actually--and Nylander especially, not really Kapsr but its do-able. ) in the attempt to acquire more picks and/or prospects.now if NYR has to they can always take a bit out of soome slaries in attempt just to move the guy for some picks and or prospects.

I really depise the Malik signing and if NYR wanted some one could have signed plenty of other D-men, signing one that yes has a great +/- is cool but he is 6'5" 230 lbs and is a bigger wuss then POti which is my main problem, especially with a team of softies I dont want to see NYR getting pushed around b y teams like The Dves, Toronto, B's or Philly. A tough presence is needed and size or atleast players with physisical attributes.

Now what we as NYR fans should want is a great season out of Straka, Nylander, jagr , Rucchin, kaspar and Rosie. The better they play and the healthier they stay the more valuablye the become to teams at the tade deadline, thats a fact. But then agian a better season is not a good thing cause that could mena a final playoff spot as the 8th seed, you never know, which would then put NYR in a draft p[ostion being a mid first rounder pick , when in fact NYR needs a top 5 and if not top 7 or 8 and I would even deal with 10.

Or the other possibility is Sather is making a run to try to see if NYR could get to the playoffs and with that willl try to re-sign some guys and move others, which I dont like.Cause that means less prospects and or picks for the club.

Basically I dont know, I think Sather has a plan going on and it could be acquiring all these vets cause in all reality NYR does not have enough youth to realistically crack the line up and especially scoring ones. So these deals all could be for the re-build and just another vet to move and acquire more picks.

Among a flurry of activity a couple years ago Sather moved a bunch if not every vet left on NYR's roster for plenty of good picks and prospects and this could be the same scenario.Lets hope so atleast I do. the more picks and prospects NYR has the better chance of making trades for good young stud players or even moving up in the draft to acquire an extra 1st rounder along with the one NYR already has and who know a 1st rounder Jagr could fetch us and that would land NYR with three 1st rounder, which is highly unlikely but possible.

A quick break down of how valuable players could be at the deadline:

Jagr- a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder and 2 prospects or maybe two 1st rounders and a prospect to a desperate club.

Straka- 3rd rounder and/or a prospect.

Rucchin-2nd rounder and a prospect or just a 2nd rounder

Rosie- 3rd rounder/4th rounder

Nylander- 2nd rounder plus a pick or a 3rd rounder and a prospect or 2

Kaspar- 3rd rounder ( NYR eats some salary, same with Nylander )

Most of these are likely what the players will be worth at the deadline and with the picks NYR has now these move could be major MAJOR for NYR's rebuild it can help them move up in all sorts of spots. This could be a good thing or it could be Sather thinking he is going to try to go after a cup. I dont know.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Now in some cases salary maybe be an issue Jagr, NYlander and Kaspar but NYR could always eat some just to make a deal go through and they got the money so that wont hurt at all.And I also dont assume every player has to be moved for a pick or prospects they could package vets with some of NYR's picks or players for other teams picks and players alot can be done for the positive of NY.

Basically Sather maybe doing the right thing and I have a feeling with NYR not having the top young talent up front figres its pointless to build with 3rd and 4th liners when more vets could be had and traded for picks to get NYR some more real top flight picks and or prospects tomove higher in the draft etc.. ( the only real top 6 talent has ready at the moment is Lundmark? and Balej possibly Prucha and orIMMonen but they havent even played in N.A yet so thats iffy ).

Or thelast and only option is sather is trying toget in the playoffs and see how far NYR could go , which i wouldnt put it past him..

****But overall IMO Sather is doing what he is doing to move the rebuild along alot faster which is very cool, and I do think the NYR org. is absolutley dedicated to the re-build here in NY and is doing what there doing for a positive and not a negative******* Thats all based on my own opinion and I very much so hope Im right if not well us NYR fans will not be very happy. But with the signings of Lundqvist, Montoya, Jessiman, Immonen and Pruchas resigning Lundmakr and Balej along with Murray etc along with all the draft picks and prospects been acquiring and putting in Hrtfd the last couple year... shows this team wants to rebuild and liek I said I think sather is doing the right thing, if not well then we will have to wait until A- sather dies B- Dolan and Sather to break up there loving relationship or C- Sather retires which i dont see coming any time soon.

Sorry so long but these I feel are thing people should think about when getting angry over some signings, this could be a very positive thing what us NYR fans are see'ing. So lets chill wait till the season starts to see what happens and most anxiousley wait tillthe dead line to see what happens.


Maybe with the Rucchin trade this could mean NYR has a deal somewhere to move one of NYlander, Straka or Rosie maybe Jagr you never know.

Maybe a pakage of a vet and a young guy with a pick to somehwre for some picks or prospects or a solid young player, you never know with Slats.


Last edited by NYC Aim 4588: 08-24-2005 at 12:57 PM.
 
Old
08-24-2005, 12:41 PM
  #2
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As mentioned in a nother post...

I get the sense that there will not be as much as a windfall as the last season. You're hoped return for Rucchin is far better than what the Rangers had to give up to get him in the first place - not sure that will happen. Nylander and Kaspar are virtually unmoveable - and it's becoming even more questionable why Kaspar was kept in the first place, as opposed to being bought-out.

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08-24-2005, 12:55 PM
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well NYR got a rugged prospect and a 2nd rounder for Malakhov so anything is possible. Even though NYR gave up a tough guy that doesnt mean really anything. That move was just made by Ana i beleive to clear cap space. So with Rucchin having a good rep and a solid season could fetch a 2nd rounder, I believe . It might be high fetched but you never know.

then again I would like alot of guys moved and Ruchchin to be kept and maybe signed to a 1 year with second option, as some one said he could be like the Tim Taylor of TB.

 
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08-24-2005, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Aim 4588
well NYR got a rugged prospect and a 2nd rounder for Malakhov so anything is possible. Even though NYR gave up a tough guy that doesnt mean really anything. That move was just made by Ana i beleive to clear cap space. So with Rucchin having a good rep and a solid season could fetch a 2nd rounder, I believe . It might be high fetched but you never know.

then again I would like alot of guys moved and Ruchchin to be kept and maybe signed to a 1 year with second option, as some one said he could be like the Tim Taylor of TB.
Agreed. This is actually a NY-based team taking advantage of another team's cap problems (will wonders never cease?) to get a good player at a relatively cheap price (the Daily News website seems to have it as Gillies plus a 4th rounder). He gets more valuable in-season as a)teams realize they may be contending for a cup and b)Cablevision has eaten most of the remaining dollars off of his contract - he could certainly be worth a #2 and/or a prospect in March.

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08-24-2005, 01:37 PM
  #5
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I don't like the two prong approach to rebuilding. We are getting absolutly awful draft picks because we are trying to make the playoffs and that is resulting in lower caliber players picked during the draft (not to mention an awful drafting team in the past).

Having said that; I believe that Sather will continue this approach but will also add aspect. I am guessing that Sather is currently in the market to sign 2 big RFA's. This would go along with the approach he currently has because we will keep getting awful picks (between 7-12) [which he'll be willing to lose in an RFA deal] trying to make the playoffs and will instantly address the lack of forward prospects this team currently has.

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08-24-2005, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
and it's becoming even more questionable why Kaspar was kept in the first place, as opposed to being bought-out.
Kaspar was not bought out because of how much time and effort he has put in to guide the kids and help them along in their journey to the NHL

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08-24-2005, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by phishman3579
we will keep getting awful picks (between 7-12) [which he'll be willing to lose in an RFA deal] trying to make the playoffs and will instantly address the lack of forward prospects this team currently has.
What ???

GOD awful picks between 7 and 12 , are you serious if so It makes even wonder if I should take anything you say serious. It seems to me you are talking out of some sort of extreme but weird frustration attitude on the way Sather is doing things in so has you talking ********.

If NYR got a pick in the top, being anywhere from 6/7 - 10 in the draft I would be quit happy , obviousley not as happy as the #1 overall or even a top 5 but there is a top flight player in the top 10 and NYR could do very well with picks in the 6/7-10 spot in drafts for the next couple years.

 
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08-24-2005, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Aim 4588
What ???

GOD awful picks between 7 and 12 , are you serious if so It makes even wonder if I should take anything you say serious. It seems to me you are talking out of some sort of extreme but weird frustration attitude on the way Sather is doing things in so has you talking ********.

If NYR got a pick in the top, being anywhere from 6/7 - 10 in the draft I would be quit happy , obviousley not as happy as the #1 overall or even a top 5 but there is a top flight player in the top 10 and NYR could do very well with picks in the 6/7-10 spot in drafts for the next couple years.
Look at the last 10 years of Ranger 1st round drafting, let me know if we drafted any player that has any kind of impact in the NHL. We have awful drafting and I think those picks would be better used in a RFA that has already prooved themselves.

1995: None (Christian Dube in the 2nd)
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th) [Actually could of been something]
1998: Manny Malhotra (7th)
1999: Pavel Brendl and Lundmark (4th and 9th)
2000: None (Filip Novak in the 2nd)
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th) see Cherneski
2002: None (Lee Falardeau in the 2nd)
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th)
2004: Al Montoya (6th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th)

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08-24-2005, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I get the sense that there will not be as much as a windfall as the last season. You're hoped return for Rucchin is far better than what the Rangers had to give up to get him in the first place - not sure that will happen. Nylander and Kaspar are virtually unmoveable - and it's becoming even more questionable why Kaspar was kept in the first place, as opposed to being bought-out.
Actually, I suspect we're beginning to see a trade market that is time-dependant. That is, before the season starts, players (in general, with exceptions based on individual circumstance) will have much less value than at the trade deadline. This is mostly true of those players with 1-year contracts.

Because of the way the CBA counts salary toward the cap, a player's remaining salary for the year is all that counts against the team's cap that traded for him. I believe that come trade deadline, players valuable for the playoffs with 1-year contracts will be extremely valuable, with inflated trade values.

I think you're seeing Sather attempt to buy low, sell high. It remains to be seen if he'll be able to follow through on this.

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08-24-2005, 05:54 PM
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Buy low sell high works for stocks, it'll work for player's also. Hope Sather can pull it off.

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08-24-2005, 06:28 PM
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The poster in an earlier thread made the refernce

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I get the sense that there will not be as much as a windfall as the last season. You're hoped return for Rucchin is far better than what the Rangers had to give up to get him in the first place - not sure that will happen. Nylander and Kaspar are virtually unmoveable - and it's becoming even more questionable why Kaspar was kept in the first place, as opposed to being bought-out.
to not having the same market, nor the same scale of return. I disagree. Here is why I disagree. Hockey is not football. Football is very limited in terms of trades, period. Trades are not the culture of that sport. They can buyout players, waive players, etc and not have the same impact that the NHL salary cap has in hockey.
Second, football's playoff run has a very limited, defined number of games, hockey doesn't. In hockey you can play up to 28 games, or as little as 16. That in and of itself is another whole season. Pray tell what has changed with a playoff contenders need for depth? Nothing! The key is which GM has managed their cap. People fail to realize that deadline deals might involve salaries too. The player trading the vet to the contender will also likely take a player back in return who has the same limited term of contract. Picks will be traded. Business as usual at the trade deadline will continue. Think not? Explain why teams paid big money to overage UFA's and then compounded the error by adding more years!

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08-24-2005, 06:36 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangerFan
Agreed. This is actually a NY-based team taking advantage of another team's cap problems (will wonders never cease?) to get a good player at a relatively cheap price (the Daily News website seems to have it as Gillies plus a 4th rounder). He gets more valuable in-season as a)teams realize they may be contending for a cup and b)Cablevision has eaten most of the remaining dollars off of his contract - he could certainly be worth a #2 and/or a prospect in March.

Where do you figure the magical cap room comes from? And how do you figure that less teams bidding will equal as high of a price as a great deadline in which teams were going for broke.

I;m obviously missing something here so i need you to explain this to me.

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08-24-2005, 06:39 PM
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The first round is certainly where you should get better quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by phishman3579
Look at the last 10 years of Ranger 1st round drafting, let me know if we drafted any player that has any kind of impact in the NHL. We have awful drafting and I think those picks would be better used in a RFA that has already prooved themselves.

1995: None (Christian Dube in the 2nd)
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th) [Actually could of been something]
1998: Manny Malhotra (7th)
1999: Pavel Brendl and Lundmark (4th and 9th)
2000: None (Filip Novak in the 2nd)
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th) see Cherneski
2002: None (Lee Falardeau in the 2nd)
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th)
2004: Al Montoya (6th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th)
players. Would you consider Lundqvist a bad pick? Immonen, though not drafted by us was chosen in the 7-8th round. Tjutin is he a bad choice? Prucha in the 7-8th round? Players are found all through the draft. For every quality 1st rounder there has been a equally number of 1st rounders that have been stiffs, even from the top 5 in round 1! Our concern should be are we uncovering prospects. Are we developing prospects. Are we doing our homework in trades identifying the better prospects within our trading partners organization? All are of importance. Drafting well and early in the 1st round is great, but it is no guaranty of a sure thing.

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08-24-2005, 06:41 PM
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Hockey is not football. Football is very limited in terms of trades, period. Trades are not the culture of that sport. They can buyout players, waive players, etc and not have the same impact that the NHL salary cap has in hockey.
The reason there is a cap is so everyone is fairly close. I dont think 30 teams are just going to be randombly buying guys out.



Quote:
Pray tell what has changed with a playoff contenders need for depth? Nothing! The key is which GM has managed their cap.
Which right of the bat will equal less teams. You've pretty much just argued your own counterpoint.

Quote:
People fail to realize that deadline deals might involve salaries too.
Exactly, so what is the point of adding another vet or two or a bad contract. I thought you wanted to trade to get assets.

Quote:
The player trading the vet to the contender will also likely take a player back in return who has the same limited term of contract. Picks will be traded. Business as usual at the trade deadline will continue. Think not? Explain why teams paid big money to overage UFA's and then compounded the error by adding more years
Umm maybe because they were going to be UFA's in a year and the players who are locked into the huge deals are in their primes and are the foundation for which the team is built.

When you have a cap, even with buyouts you still have only X-amount of room. Teams are signing guys just to buy out if it doesnt work.

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08-24-2005, 06:44 PM
  #15
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Would you consider Lundqvist a bad pick? Immonen, though not drafted by us was chosen in the 7-8th round. Tjutin is he a bad choice? Prucha in the 7-8th round? Players are found all through the draft. For every quality 1st rounder there has been a equally number of 1st rounders that have been stiffs, even from the top 5 in round 1! Our concern should be are we uncovering prospects. Are we developing prospects. Are we doing our homework in trades identifying the better prospects within our trading partners organization? All are of importance. Drafting well and early in the 1st round is great, but it is no guaranty of a sure thing.
And I also wouldn't consider the Nash's and Kovalchuk's and etc. etc. to be bad picks either and they are exactly the kind of franchise players this team doesn't have.

Is there talent to be found everywhere? Sure, but you want as good of odds as possible.

The problem with picking later is not that you can't necessarily find a good player but rather you have to hope someone else doesnt find himbefore you.

Taking a kid in a later round doesn't change that you'd take them, but the close to the front of the draft you get, the harder it is to get a specific kid you may want.

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08-24-2005, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
players. Would you consider Lundqvist a bad pick? Immonen, though not drafted by us was chosen in the 7-8th round. Tjutin is he a bad choice? Prucha in the 7-8th round? Players are found all through the draft. For every quality 1st rounder there has been a equally number of 1st rounders that have been stiffs, even from the top 5 in round 1! Our concern should be are we uncovering prospects. Are we developing prospects. Are we doing our homework in trades identifying the better prospects within our trading partners organization? All are of importance. Drafting well and early in the 1st round is great, but it is no guaranty of a sure thing.
That was my point. If we were to go after a RFA and the arbritration deceided it would cost us a couple early picks than I think it's worth it. We are going to try and make the playoffs (giving us a 7-12 pick) and even if we get that 1st round pick we usually pick the dud of the round. Why not waste a couple on a good prooven RFA (ala Graves).

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08-24-2005, 07:26 PM
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I am foggy, how exactly does the new RFA system work.

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08-24-2005, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I am foggy, how exactly does the new RFA system work.

Didn't know it had changed with the new CBA.

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08-24-2005, 07:44 PM
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I think i may have totally misunderstood the post. Nevermind.

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08-24-2005, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Where do you figure the magical cap room comes from? And how do you figure that less teams bidding will equal as high of a price as a great deadline in which teams were going for broke.

I;m obviously missing something here so i need you to explain this to me.
Well, I don't work in the Rangers' front office as their cap-ologist, but as I understand the rules for the new CBA, only the amount of salary you pay a given player in a year counts towards the cap. Therefore, if you acquire Rucchin right now he counts as $2.261MM against your cap. However, if the Rangers trade him to you at the deadline he only counts for a fraction of that amount - I'm not sure what % of the season will be left at the new deadline (can anyone help out with this info?), but I'm guessing that only something like $700K-$900K of his salary will be left.

This is a lot easier to bite off for a team that's right up against the cap - obviously no one will ever be right at the cap # so teams that are say within a million of the number can suddenly afford him (particularly since he's only got one year left and won't cause any problems with next year's cap either). And even those riiiiiiight up against the cap can afford him by throwing in a marginal player to clear some room. Thus, his salary which made him a liability for the Ducks going into the season, actually makes him attractive to playoff contenders at the deadline. And he's exactly the sort of player that teams are going to be looking to add for the stretch run.

I hope that clears up the logic behind my earlier statement?

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08-24-2005, 08:14 PM
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Neil Smiths drafting record was AWFULL!
Dan Cloutier may have been his best first rounder.
He did draft Dale Puritain
Brendl and Lundmark were gushed over by many a NHL scout, if those two were half the players they were expected to be the Rangers fortunes would have been much different. And he did draft Henrik Lundqvist in 2000.
Blackburn had a freak injury, it happens, Crosby can blow his knee out his first season, would that make him a bad pick.
Slats has done a far better job picking NHL caliber players.
Fedor Tyutin, Garth Muray,Petr Prucha,Nigel Daws and many others who's potential is still unknown.

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08-24-2005, 08:17 PM
  #22
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the compensation for a restricted has decreased somewhat. Now, the top compensation is 4 first rounders instead of 5.

http://www.nhl.com/players/freelist05.html

I'd do this for Kovalchuk now.

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08-24-2005, 08:19 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBlues
Neil Smiths drafting record was AWFULL!
Dan Cloutier may have been his best first rounder.
He did draft Dale Puritain
Brendl and Lundmark were gushed over by many a NHL scout, if those two were half the players they were expected to be the Rangers fortunes would have been much different. And he did draft Henrik Lundqvist in 2000.
Blackburn had a freak injury, it happens, Crosby can blow his knee out his first season, would that make him a bad pick.
Slats has done a far better job picking NHL caliber players.
Fedor Tyutin, Garth Muray,Petr Prucha,Nigel Daws and many others who's potential is still unknown.
the 2000 draft was Sather's so Lundqvuist was his pick. I remember the Novak/Moore move down deal was his first move.

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08-24-2005, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBlues
Neil Smiths drafting record was AWFULL!
Dan Cloutier may have been his best first rounder.
He did draft Dale Puritain
Brendl and Lundmark were gushed over by many a NHL scout, if those two were half the players they were expected to be the Rangers fortunes would have been much different. And he did draft Henrik Lundqvist in 2000.
Blackburn had a freak injury, it happens, Crosby can blow his knee out his first season, would that make him a bad pick.
Slats has done a far better job picking NHL caliber players.
Fedor Tyutin, Garth Muray,Petr Prucha,Nigel Daws and many others who's potential is still unknown.
That's not my point. I can't remember getting anyone good in the first round in the last 10 years where we were picking all over the place. I say losing four 1st rounders in exchange for a LeCavellier or a Rick Nash (just examples!) would be a risk worth taking. I think that because we have picked well in the later rounds and with the stratigy of trying to make the POs each year we will never get a top 5 pick. In short, i'd give upto four 1st rounders for a Ilya Kovalchuk. I'd also like to try and sign either Henrik Zetterberg or Pavel Datsyuk but I don't think they would cost four 1st but maybe three.

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