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Which Norris finalist deserves to win the most?

View Poll Results: Which norris finalist deserves the to win the most with their play this season?
Weber 167 60.73%
Chara 25 9.09%
Keith 83 30.18%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-28-2014, 03:52 PM
  #26
Bullseyes
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Weber
Keith
Chara

Keith or Chara will probably win it though

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04-28-2014, 04:34 PM
  #27
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Weber had two other teamates who hit 50 points, one who finished 1 point short of it. Josi solidified himself as one of the best #2 in the league, Jones was a runner-up for the Calder for a while and Hutton actually was pretty decent. They have pretty good depth up-front and a good coach. 4 player hitting 50 points is a pretty rare commodity actually, Montreal had only 3, Colombus had only 3, Dallas had only 2 (Althought they did score 70+), Detroit had 4 49-48 points player(Injuries mainly), Minny had only 3 and etc...

The Preds are not a top team, but they're not a team full of incompetent. They weren't even bottom 10 in GF! But they were bottom 10 in goals against... Considering Weber played 27 minutes a night and he played a lot of minutes on the 5th worst PK in the league... I really don't see it.

I love Weber, I've been on the bandwagon for him winning the Norris for years. This is not his year, or it might be, because this year is so damn weak.




With Bobby Orr on the Sabres, Hodgon suddenly becomes a 30 goal scorer and a 70 points forward, Miller is not traded away, Ennis scores a good bunch of goals and they slip in the PO's. Yes. When you're the best Dman in the league, mind you, I didn't say one of the best in the history of hockey, you should carry your team to the PO's.
First, Hutton was horrible through December, (NOV GAA was 4.32) so saying he was "pretty decent" is just wrong, especially early.

Weber did play 27 minutes a night on one of the teams with the highest goals agains in the league, but they were also playing a rookie in the top pairing when Josi went down and alternated between 3 rookie goalies with little or no NHL experience and Dubnyk. He was a -2, on a team that was -21 overall, not that I think +/- is even a good stat.


Last edited by triggrman: 04-28-2014 at 04:37 PM. Reason: adding Hutton's gaa in November
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Old
04-28-2014, 04:59 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
This is the first time since 2011 that the trophy has been about more than just offensive numbers. IMO, all three of these guys are top five defensemen in the NHL. Weber had maybe his best season, Keith played his best hockey since 2010, and Chara was a beast, as usual.

I'd say that makes it a pretty strong crop of candidates.


I don't believe that Bobby Orr alone would be enough to get the Sabres into the playoffs, when they were nearly doubled in points by this year's playoff qualifiers. Which leads to my point; whether or not your team makes the playoffs should have no bearing on how good of a defenseman you are and whether you deserve the Norris. I don't think any of this year's candidates could have changed Nashville's fate.
Good players make others even better, Orr was one of the finer player in the league history, believe it or not, it happens. Also, the trophy has only been about "offensive numbers" when Karlsson won it, where he had such a huge gap offensively, that it made up for his short-comings on defense. This is an incredibly foolish thing to believe, to be honest. Would Subban have won the Norris if he wasn't good defensively, after all, Suter only had a mere 6 points less than him? I can't catch the narrative around here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
First, Hutton was horrible through December, (NOV GAA was 4.32) so saying he was "pretty decent" is just wrong, especially early.

Weber did play 27 minutes a night on one of the teams with the highest goals agains in the league, but they were also playing a rookie in the top pairing when Josi went down and alternated between 3 rookie goalies with little or no NHL experience and Dubnyk. He was a -2, on a team that was -21 overall, not that I think +/- is even a good stat.
I totally understand what you're saying. It's not on him if they finished that low, but it's partly on him if they didn't finish higher.

He played mostly with Fisher, Hornqvist, Josi and Jones. There's no reason for him to be -2 with a "unit" that good really. I don't have time to look into the fancy stats, but I know someone will. I'm pretty sure that if Weber was a bit better at possession this year, he'd be in the PO's. I'm pretty sure if he was a bit better this year at driving the offense, he'd be in the PO's.

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04-28-2014, 05:05 PM
  #29
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Good players make others even better, Orr was one of the finer player in the league history, believe it or not, it happens. Also, the trophy has only been about "offensive numbers" when Karlsson won it, where he had such a huge gap offensively, that it made up for his short-comings on defense. This is an incredibly foolish thing to believe, to be honest. Would Subban have won the Norris if he wasn't good defensively, after all, Suter only had a mere 6 points less than him? I can't catch the narrative around here.




I totally understand what you're saying. It's not on him if they finished that low, but it's partly on him if they didn't finish higher.

He played mostly with Fisher, Hornqvist, Josi and Jones. There's no reason for him to be -2 with a "unit" that good really. I don't have time to look into the fancy stats, but I know someone will. I'm pretty sure that if Weber was a bit better at possession this year, he'd be in the PO's. I'm pretty sure if he was a bit better this year at driving the offense, he'd be in the PO's.
Reasonable, but compare "that unit" to the units Keith and Chara play with, and then compare our goalies to the goalies they play with. It's really a big picture right.

Weber had an outstanding individual season, and even the Predators, despite the slow start and injuries to Rinne didn't finish that bad, only 3 points out of the playoffs. So yeah, maybe he carries the team a little stronger early and we make it.

I don't expect him to win the Norris, I think he did a great job just getting to be a finalist. How many other finalist have come from small market southern franchises that didn't make the playoffs?

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04-28-2014, 05:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Bobby Orr level dominance probably would. Nobody in the NHL is even close to that level though.
Bobby Orr would not get Buffalo in the playoffs. Gretzky would not either.

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04-28-2014, 05:16 PM
  #31
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With Chara on the ice Boston has a 1.69 GAA 5 on 5.

Keith is at 2.57

Weber is at 2.79.

All this with Chara playing against a higher 5 on 5 Quality of Competition than either of those guys.


But I suppose since we are not talking about Karlsson, its OK to make it all about points.


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04-28-2014, 05:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Reasonable, but compare "that unit" to the units Keith and Chara play with, and then compare our goalies to the goalies they play with. It's really a big picture right.

Weber had an outstanding individual season, and even the Predators, despite the slow start and injuries to Rinne didn't finish that bad, only 3 points out of the playoffs. So yeah, maybe he carries the team a little stronger early and we make it.

I don't expect him to win the Norris, I think he did a great job just getting to be a finalist. How many other finalist have come from small market southern franchises that didn't make the playoffs?
It's not about comparing him to the other two. He did have a great season, but like most, it was a subpar season. Only McDonagh and Hedman rose up in performance, every other D stagnated or fell down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersej View Post
With Chara on the ice Boston has a 1.69 GAA 5 on 5.

Keith is at 2.57

Weber is at 2.79.

All this with Chara playing against a higher 5 on 5 Quality of Competition than either of those guys.


But I suppose since we are not talking about Karlsson, its OK to make it all about points.

I also believe Keith was slitghly more sheltered than most other elite Dman, the bane that almost costed Subban his Norris. (Not that it matters to me.)

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04-28-2014, 05:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersej View Post
With Chara on the ice Boston has a 1.69 GAA 5 on 5.

Keith is at 2.57

Weber is at 2.79.

All this with Chara playing against a higher 5 on 5 Quality of Competition than either of those guys.


But I suppose since we are not talking about Karlsson, its OK to make it all about points.

And this post is completely valid if we can just assume that Rask=Hutton/Mazanec=Crawford. Also I'm pretty sure Chara is the only one playing with a Selke finalist as well.

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Old
04-28-2014, 05:49 PM
  #34
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
It's not about comparing him to the other two. He did have a great season, but like most, it was a subpar season. Only McDonagh and Hedman rose up in performance, every other D stagnated or fell down.


Weber had a lot of things but a subpar season was not one of them.

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04-28-2014, 05:50 PM
  #35
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Shea Weber. This should be his second Norris, in my opinion.

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04-28-2014, 06:01 PM
  #36
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Homer pick is Chara, but probably should go to Weber.

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04-28-2014, 06:04 PM
  #37
wintersej
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
And this post is completely valid if we can just assume that Rask=Hutton/Mazanec=Crawford. Also I'm pretty sure Chara is the only one playing with a Selke finalist as well.
Well, Keith is playing with a Selke finalist. Although we all know that Keith is here because of his points playing against 2nd pairing quality of competition while playing good but not 1st tier defense.

Interesting thing happens when you look at Keith's numbers. Seems like he is getting awfully lucky with secondary assists (a number that has been shown to involve a great deal of chance and variance year to year...except for Crosby who always gets a lot)

Keith 6 g 20 primary assists 26 total
Chara 17 goals 13 primary assists 30 total
Weber 23 goals 10 primary assists 33 total

Keith really just doesn't belong in the conversation once you look beyond his overall point total.

Weber and Chara are both totally legit candidates and I wouldn't have much of a bone to pick if either won.


Last edited by wintersej: 04-28-2014 at 06:05 PM. Reason: credit to JMiller for the secondary assist #s
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Old
04-28-2014, 06:13 PM
  #38
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post


Weber had a lot of things but a subpar season was not one of them.
Sub-par season to his standards, yes.

He's usually not a negative player. As meaningless as this stat is to some extent, it comes to his senses here. Weber, being the anchor of the team, is a - player.

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04-28-2014, 06:18 PM
  #39
triggrman
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Sub-par season to his standards, yes.

He's usually not a negative player. As meaningless as this stat is to some extent, it comes to his senses here. Weber, being the anchor of the team, is a - player.
In no way shape or form did Weber have a subpar year this year, I could give a flip about his +/-, he had an outstanding season, he just happened to be on a team with a very young team with a very young defensive corp and injuries to their star goalie.

Saying Weber had a subpar year might be one of the most far fetched statements I've read on these boards outside of the trade threads.

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04-28-2014, 06:21 PM
  #40
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My vote is Duncan Keith. NHL announces Norris Trophy finalists

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04-28-2014, 07:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
In no way shape or form did Weber have a subpar year this year, I could give a flip about his +/-, he had an outstanding season, he just happened to be on a team with a very young team with a very young defensive corp and injuries to their star goalie.

Saying Weber had a subpar year might be one of the most far fetched statements I've read on these boards outside of the trade threads.
It's not an insult, he did put up a career high in points. But was he at his best in puck possession and in his defensive game ?

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04-28-2014, 07:12 PM
  #42
triggrman
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
It's not an insult, he did put up a career high in points. But was he at his best in puck possession and in his defensive game ?
Defensively yes. Puck possession is a bit more difficult with this years units.

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04-28-2014, 07:49 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Defensively yes. Puck possession is a bit more difficult with this years units.
To start the analysis.

Weber had a save percentage of 91.4%, for comparison sake, Subban had a save percentage of 92.7%, Karlsson had an 91.6% and Suter had a 94.0% It seems he did get unfavorable goaltending, compared to his peers.

He finished 10th in blocked shots, which could reinforce the fact that he didn't have the puck all that much this year...

Now how much of it is based around his teammates ? I don't know.

I really wish I'd have more time and understanding of advanced stats to reinforce my point, but I don't.

Bottom line is, he'll probably win it since this years crop is so damn "bad". But if Subban, Karlsson, Weber himself, Keith, and co had played like their nominee/winner self, I doubt he comes out on top this year. Nor do the other two.

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04-28-2014, 07:51 PM
  #44
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
To start the analysis.

Weber had a save percentage of 91.4%, for comparison sake, Subban had a save percentage of 92.7%, Karlsson had an 91.6% and Suter had a 94.0% It seems he did get unfavorable goaltending, compared to his peers.

He finished 10th in blocked shots, which could reinforce the fact that he didn't have the puck all that much this year...

Now how much of it is based around his teammates ? I don't know.

I really wish I'd have more time and understanding of advanced stats to reinforce my point, but I don't.

Bottom line is, he'll probably win it since this years crop is so damn "bad". But if Subban, Karlsson, Weber himself, Keith, and co had played like their nominee/winner self, I doubt he comes out on top this year. Nor do the other two.
I was just basing it off of watching him play. This was not a subpar season in any way shape or form from Weber. His last half of the season he dominated.

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04-28-2014, 08:11 PM
  #45
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Keith.

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04-28-2014, 08:13 PM
  #46
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I was just basing it off of watching him play. This was not a subpar season in any way shape or form from Weber. His last half of the season he dominated.
If he had dominated for the whole season he might have made it to the PO's

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04-28-2014, 08:17 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by wintersej View Post
Well, Keith is playing with a Selke finalist. Although we all know that Keith is here because of his points playing against 2nd pairing quality of competition while playing good but not 1st tier defense.

Interesting thing happens when you look at Keith's numbers. Seems like he is getting awfully lucky with secondary assists (a number that has been shown to involve a great deal of chance and variance year to year...except for Crosby who always gets a lot)

Keith 6 g 20 primary assists 26 total
Chara 17 goals 13 primary assists 30 total
Weber 23 goals 10 primary assists 33 total

Keith really just doesn't belong in the conversation once you look beyond his overall point total.

Weber and Chara are both totally legit candidates and I wouldn't have much of a bone to pick if either won.
Just incredible that secondary assists are now not important anymore. Geez, some guys don't have assists and they are seen as the guy who started the whole thing...but secondary assists don't count? Why do we have them if they are not important? That's just an argument to try to diminuish somebody's abilities. Won't work.

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04-28-2014, 09:23 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
It's not an insult, he did put up a career high in points. But was he at his best in puck possession and in his defensive game ?
His FF% was significantly better than last years as was his corsi%, and pretty close to the 2 years prior. Sure he looked his best when paired with Suter, but he wasn't bad possession wise this year.

Shots against per 60 was inline with prior years. There really isn't much to justify that his possession game was significantly worse than prior years, especially when considering his D partner.

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04-28-2014, 09:33 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Just incredible that secondary assists are now not important anymore. Geez, some guys don't have assists and they are seen as the guy who started the whole thing...but secondary assists don't count? Why do we have them if they are not important? That's just an argument to try to diminuish somebody's abilities. Won't work.
I guess the reason why it jumps out is that of Dmen with 60+ games, 4 of the top 20 in 2nd Assists/20mins are Chicago Dmen. Perhaps that's caused by the system, but it does lend some weight to the argument that he's getting some help that other norris finalists do not get.

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04-28-2014, 09:37 PM
  #50
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Weber likely deserves it, playing on that team. Keith will probably get it though.

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