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Shattenkirk to the Rangers

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Old
04-29-2014, 06:13 PM
  #26
HooliganX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyRevolutions View Post
I would have a really tough time trading Miller, but my offer is:


Berglund + Shattenkirk for JT Miller, Klein, and Hagelin.

Miller still has room to grow, but I think he could easily handle 3rd line C minutes next year with still nice upside. Klein would be a stay at home defensive D, pretty solid. Hags would be in on the forecheck, pretty good on the PK, and opening space.


Rangers would have something like:

Nash - Step - MSL
Kreider - Berglund - Zuccs
Pouliot - Brass - Fast?/UFA?
Boyle - Moore - Dorsett


McD - G
Staal - Shattenkirk
Moore - McIlrath?/UFA?




St. Louis would have something like:

Schwartz - Backes - Oshie
Steen - Sobotka - Tarasenko
Hags - Miller - Cracknell
Porter - Lapierre - Reeves

Bouwmeester - Piets
Jackman - Klein
Leopold - Polak


Keep in mind Hagelin has spent time all over the lineup (Lines 1-3) over the last two seasons.
Thats horrible for the Blues.

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04-29-2014, 06:15 PM
  #27
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by EpicDing View Post
Discounting the rest of this, are you saying Shattenkirk is better than Girardi?

Wow bern.
Not what I said.
Thank you for demonstrating the difference between an open mind and an empty one.

IF we moved Girardi for a premium upgrade or talent add, we would be taking a hit at RD.
We could survive that -- obviously not as good as with Girardi, but survive adequately --- by any of multiple scenarios.
However, Shattenkirk would be enough of an add that it would offset to some degree the quality of replacement we had in our top 4.

You have to think more than what is right in front of you.
It is not as simple as who is better Girardi or Shatty?
It is a ? of does the value returned for say, Girardi, Stepan + J. Moore command enough of a premium to offset their loss.

And remember something, all my detractors:
we are not going to win anything unless/until we add enough talent.

Bend, buckle and break, and let that reality hit home before you are so quick to criticize.

Of course to add talent --- and do so quickly --- you have to sell desired talent at a premium, and reinvest carefully the overpayment.

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Old
04-29-2014, 06:20 PM
  #28
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I love how Bern proposes Stepan and Girardi for players that are not as good as Stepan nor Girardi. Holy ****.
Not true.
Such postulate we get overpayment for their surrender.

In the instant matter, it is closer.
In a vacuum Shattenkirk may be close in value to Stepan.

But while there is a high demand for Shattenkirk, there is a higher demand at the moment for Stepan.

Thus my suggestion the Blues add to beat whatever the top market price would be.

A little fact you conveniently ignored.

Not your first nor your last.

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04-29-2014, 06:21 PM
  #29
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
He also posted this golden lil nugget

I stand by that post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agreed, M. Staal - Hertl, not a chance straight up.

Since the idea is to add to Kreider, not do coke for pepsi, maybe we can offer fair value and you can then make best subsequent deal for SJS whether it is with newly acquired or current assets.

So assuming Danny G waives NMC,
something basically Staal + Girardi + Hagelin
for Hertl

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04-29-2014, 06:23 PM
  #30
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Wow. That's almost as bad as his Hamilton proposals.
So many retorts.
So little time

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Old
04-30-2014, 05:46 PM
  #31
peteyo
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We don't really need shattenkirk tho... People unrate our farms defense depth so much. We need to drop Dead weight not out number one center for a d man we don't need

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Old
04-30-2014, 05:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Thats horrible for the Blues.
How about Berglund + Shattenkirk for Pavelski + 2nd? Is that better than the NYR one you were responding too?

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Old
05-01-2014, 03:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by peteyo View Post
We don't really need shattenkirk tho... People unrate our farms defense depth so much. We need to drop Dead weight not out number one center for a d man we don't need
You gotta tolerate bernmeister a little. His MO is that Stepan is the worst hockey player in New York and that JT Miller is the second coming of Wayne Gretzky. He's absurdly wrong about both of those things, but damn it if he doesn't try

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05-01-2014, 04:51 PM
  #34
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blues fans aren't gonna like this

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05-01-2014, 05:04 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
This is just a kicking the tires on a glaring need. We'd obviously need a plan to replace Brassard. I'm just trying to gauge value here.
They would need to replace Brassard and presumably Richards. And Moore would need to be re-signed.

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Old
05-01-2014, 05:35 PM
  #36
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by peteyo View Post
We don't really need shattenkirk tho... People unrate our farms defense depth so much. We need to drop Dead weight not out number one center for a d man we don't need
Although I said ballpark fair value, I also said Stepan is in high demand, what would Blues (or others add).

We need more horses, more quality assets.
Need to trade a couple of known commodities (Stepan - Girardi - J. Moore)
for PREMIUM above and beyond fair value.

That, and getting lucky, are only ways to make up the talent gap.

Assuming of course you agree,
McDonagh should not be moved except for MacKinnon
Kreider is still showing huge potential and should not be moved unless an offer paying up above and beyond, conceding his potential as his actual ceiling, is offered.

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Old
05-01-2014, 05:42 PM
  #37
bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPD View Post
...
Quote:
You gotta tolerate bernmeister a little.
Thanks, BPD.
That's not exactly Led Zep w/ "whole lotta love", but since you are one of the good guys, I take it is as.


Quote:
His MO is that Stepan is the worst hockey player in New York
no, a good player +, I am on record defending he is fully a 1c --- lower third or so of 1c, but a bonafide 1c.
However, he is potentially worth more to us in trade than as our 1c.


Quote:
and that JT Miller is the second coming of Wayne Gretzky.
Never said anything like that.
Only saying JT is legit talent (not mega talent like Kreider)
and
is our best speed C complement who should have been allowed to make mistakes and here playing with Kreider from day 1.
Instead we got Taylor Pyatt for half a season +, approx.


Quote:
He's absurdly wrong about both of those things, but damn it if he doesn't try
I'm waiting for the cycle that is the natural order of things to come about and again have a fellow Ranger poster announce that
"all of a sudden, bernmeister's proposals don't seem so crazy"
or something to that effect.

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Old
05-01-2014, 05:44 PM
  #38
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
They would need to replace Brassard and presumably Richards. And Moore would need to be re-signed.
You are correct sir.
I am optimistic on Lindberg.
And Miller should be at C.
Don't take my word for it. None other than RangerBoy agrees.

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Old
05-01-2014, 06:32 PM
  #39
Machinehead
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Why would we trade our best center for a guy that would be our 4th defenseman?

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05-01-2014, 06:45 PM
  #40
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Why would we trade our best center for a guy that would be our 4th defenseman?
pls see post 36

Also, above and beyond what Blues (in this scenario as top suitor winning competition for Stepan's services) add for DS,

the thought is someone will overpay for Girardi.
{Many thought like 10th overall AS A RENTAL was ballpark value, then he did a nice multi-year deal. So I want value of 3 generic 1sts (not like super high end picks, but similar to what is benchmark value for signing a free agent) for Girardi, less what I might throw in the other way.}

If Shattenkirk were part of the return, it would ease loss of moving Girardi for, by definition, a profit.

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05-01-2014, 06:48 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Why would we trade our best center for a guy that would be our 4th defenseman?
Why would the Blues want anyone else if they are trading Shattenkirk. The poster asked what it would take and that is what it would take. I understand why the Rangers would not do it. You should also understand why the Blues wouldn't trade him for anyone else.

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05-01-2014, 06:51 PM
  #42
Machinehead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Why would the Blues want anyone else if they are trading Shattenkirk. The poster asked what it would take and that is what it would take. I understand why the Rangers would not do it. You should also understand why the Blues wouldn't trade him for anyone else.
Makes sense to me why the Blues would require that. But it's a weakness for strength exchange for the Rangers.

And no Shattenkirk does not make losing Girardi ok.

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05-01-2014, 07:25 PM
  #43
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Makes sense to me why the Blues would require that. But it's a weakness for strength exchange for the Rangers.

And no Shattenkirk does not make losing Girardi ok.
We need to upgrade the talent level.

someone will pay us a premium for Stepan/Girardi. If they don't we don't move 'em.

Depending upon what form of return that premium is we may want to make a play for a guy like Shatty.

So, if we moved Stepan + Girardi for JVR, a scoring LW, that would be one application of those assets and a deal here would be moot.

But if someone else gave us top, top dollar for Girardi, enough to be worth our while, we would still want to consider moving Stepan --- IF it was also for a premium worth our while.

One factor is if we have or are moving Girardi, Shattenkirk takes on an added value because he helps somewhat on need that has increased with Girardi moved.

But again, if we are looking for max talent increase, we need to flip these guys to the highest bidders.

Then worry about making subsequent deals for balance, chemistry, etc., which are easier to do because you have more resources as a result of trading Derek and Danny for a premium.

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05-01-2014, 07:30 PM
  #44
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Again, Rangers have no need to deal for defenseman. They already have Allen and McIlrath ready to make the NHL and Skjei is one the way.

If anything, the Rangers need a third line center if Miller isnt' somebody they believe enough in that can do that job.

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05-01-2014, 08:32 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
We need to upgrade the talent level.

someone will pay us a premium for Stepan/Girardi. If they don't we don't move 'em.

Depending upon what form of return that premium is we may want to make a play for a guy like Shatty.

So, if we moved Stepan + Girardi for JVR, a scoring LW, that would be one application of those assets and a deal here would be moot.

But if someone else gave us top, top dollar for Girardi, enough to be worth our while, we would still want to consider moving Stepan --- IF it was also for a premium worth our while.

One factor is if we have or are moving Girardi, Shattenkirk takes on an added value because he helps somewhat on need that has increased with Girardi moved.

But again, if we are looking for max talent increase, we need to flip these guys to the highest bidders.

Then worry about making subsequent deals for balance, chemistry, etc., which are easier to do because you have more resources as a result of trading Derek and Danny for a premium.
If I'm moving Stepan and Girardi, it's not for a Left Wing. I'd move them for a top of the line 1C that can put up points. The Rangers haven't had one of those in a long time. Maybe not since Messier.

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Old
05-01-2014, 11:19 PM
  #46
Rangers_23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
someone will pay us a premium for Stepan/Girardi. If they don't we don't move 'em.
This is where you are wrong Bern. Why will any team pay the Rangers a premium for Steps/Girardi? What trade market conditions are making this possible?

You value Rangers players way too high. Girardi doesn't return 3 first round picks in even the most desperate of scenarios. At most a 1st and decent roster player.

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05-01-2014, 11:29 PM
  #47
Vladys Gumption
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Originally Posted by Rangers_23 View Post
This is where you are wrong Bern. Why will any team pay the Rangers a premium for Steps/Girardi? What trade market conditions are making this possible?

You value Rangers players way too high. Girardi doesn't return 3 first round picks in even the most desperate of scenarios. At most a 1st and decent roster player.
I would think Stepan would get more than Girardi. First line centers that give you quality play in both ends of the ice usually get more than defensive defenseman.

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Old
05-02-2014, 12:03 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Don't take my word for it. None other than RangerBoy agrees.
You love mentioning RB's name, yet I don't think he's actually ever responded, praised, or agreed with any of your nonsense.

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05-02-2014, 02:56 AM
  #49
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It's Stepan or bust for Shattenkirk.

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05-02-2014, 08:12 PM
  #50
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion* View Post
You love mentioning RB's name, yet I don't think he's actually ever responded, praised, or agreed with any of your nonsense.
His position on Miller being a C has been documented for some time.
No, you don't think.
You just hope to throw mud when you can.

No matter.
Like Kreider, Miller will make me look good in the end.
They've wasted enough time.
Kreider Miller should be ASAP without any more delay.

Then let's talk some more

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